New bregara, 7mm-08 , three different bullets. three shots ea without letting barrel cool. first one on zero, next two (almost touching) 1.5 inch rt and a bit low.
Had been working up loads with cold barrel each shot and now went to test 3 at a time. have checked mounts, rings and action screw tourque.
seirra 150 sbt
CEB 132
Hornady 154 rn
mid range on velositys

An improperly stress relieved barrel will do that. The first shot from a cold barrel goes in, and the barrel is instantly warmed so that the next two go together.
The fix is to have it stress relieved, or replace it. For hunting, you are well within the specs for a hunting situation.
Common on low end barrels. And some higher end ones whose name I will not mention.
Douglas, whose process I have witnesses, knows how to stress relieve barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
An improperly stress relieved barrel will do that. The first shot from a cold barrel goes in, and the barrel is instantly warmed so that the next two go together.
The fix is to have it stress relieved, or replace it. For hunting, you are well within the specs for a hunting situation.
Common on low end barrels. And some higher end ones whose name I will not mention.
Douglas, whose process I have witnesses, knows how to stress relieve barrels.

Thanks. Will try factory ammo they claim to have tested it with. (if it can be found now ) If it continues ill just send it back.

that's what I'd do.
Bergara stress relieves their barrels too, but if it don't shoot they will fix it.
I have to work pretty damn hard to get mine to shoot at the full inch guarantee.
it pretty much takes dinged bases and core voids to get it there and even then it's just barely over an inch.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
that's what I'd do.
Bergara stress relieves their barrels too, but if it don't shoot they will fix it.
I have to work pretty damn hard to get mine to shoot at the full inch guarantee.
it pretty much takes dinged bases and core voids to get it there and even then it's just barely over an inch.

OK, I an amature, what are dinged bases and core voids?

What gets me about this one is that the second and third shots are almost alway very close together. also the slower the velosity the smaller the distance between first shot and the other two. If I could find some more hndy 154 rn i'd just go with those and be happy with it out to 300 yards

Because your barrel is actually bending/curving due to heat from the first shot.
He is saying his barrel shoots very well and he has to use damaged bullets to make it shoot less well.
Yours, was one of them that missed whatever quality control system they have. They didn't read Deming's book.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Because your barrel is actually bending/curving due to heat from the first shot.
He is saying his barrel shoots very well and he has to use damaged bullets to make it shoot less well.
Yours, was one of them that missed whatever quality control system they have. They didn't read Deming's book.

was the bore clean and cold?

In years past many hunters shot a fouling shot before hunting. I don't know if that's still done.

Dave

OP mentioned, cold; didn't say he cleaned it.
Does anyone fire a fouling shot before hunting? Not I.

dirty and clean with one 'dirty' shot is some different.
but it isn't unusual for a rifle to toss the first shot here and the next few over there, the key is if it is close enough to the others to not really matter.

I haven't cleaned my Bergara since I got it, and won't until it says it needs it, I'm guessing somewhere in the next hundred rounds.

I do fire fouling shot when working with new rifle.

Interisting comparison. At the same time i picked up bergara I also picked up a new ruger 300 rcm. Being componets are tight, this is how ive gone about my work. Pick a bullet and powder. Load one up in one grain increments and see how that looks over chrony and target. Generally five shots. Clean, go back with six rounds, 3 apeice at two different loads. Clean and start over, repeat untill i have load that works and barrel is not fouled with copper from five to 6 rounds.

bergara took about 80 rounds to not show much copper after 6 rounds, ruger has never showed copper after 6 rounds.

tried to put this in as few words as possible hope it make sense.

Ruger hammer forges their barrels since 1990; they are very good now. Bergara button rifles theirs, allegedly taught by Shilen. Totally different processes, and if you don't properly stress relieve them, they will do what yours does. It requires meticulous attention to detail and quality control.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ruger hammer forges their barrels since 1990; they are very good now. Bergara button rifles theirs, allegedly taught by Shilen. Totally different processes, and if you don't properly stress relieve them, they will do what yours does. It requires meticulous attention to detail and quality control.

Thanks for all the information.

I would trade all I know for half of what I don't know

eny, I liked your tagline. It reminds me of the Peanuts cartoon when Lucy asks Linus if he would like to go back + start again knowing what he knows now, to which Linus replies, "So what do I know now?"

I had a similar but much worse situation with my first proper hunting rifle, a Ruger M77 mk.2 RSI in .30-06.

However, in that rifle's case, you had to walk with the rifle or bump it lightly to get it to throw the first shot.

Turned out to be the scope rings. Replaced them with aftermarket, and the problem went away.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
eny, I liked your tagline. It reminds me of the Peanuts cartoon when Lucy asks Linus if he would like to go back + start again knowing what he knows now, to which Linus replies, "So what do I know now?"

" never mistake motion for action" I like that one too.

another one I used to tell kids working for me
"Waiting" is not an action word

Cheers

Now, there is another theory for stress relieving bad barrels, and it has been demonstrated to be effective, but has not been scientifically proven that I know of. And the technique is used in the industry to stress relieve. That method is by peening, or in the case of a barrel, hitting it with a hammer. I have seen it done and have seen it work. Take the barrel, or barreled receiver and hold it so it is free to vibrate. Hit it 1/3 of the way from the breech with a hammer, 3 times. I know it sounds like witchcraft, but it does work; let's say, has worked. The theory is that the impact will realign the steel molecules. I know what you are thinking.
You have nothing to lose.
As for tag lines, here is my favorite, and what I used to tell my students (one of my jobs was teaching at Ft Leavenworth in the CGSC).
"Hope is not a course of action"
As in, I hope the enemy does not do this.

Try an other brand primer.

Have you checked to see if the bullets are seated straight?

Then there is powder, but....it could need upward barrel pressure. Try shimming the stock and barrel in the front. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yours, was one of them that missed whatever quality control system they have. They didn't read Deming's book.

I don't think there are many of us left who even know who Deming was, much less have learned from his teachings.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Now, there is another theory for stress relieving bad barrels, and it has been demonstrated to be effective, but has not been scientifically proven that I know of. And the technique is used in the industry to stress relieve. That method is by peening, or in the case of a barrel, hitting it with a hammer. I have seen it done and have seen it work. Take the barrel, or barreled receiver and hold it so it is free to vibrate. Hit it 1/3 of the way from the breech with a hammer, 3 times. I know it sounds like witchcraft, but it does work; let's say, has worked. The theory is that the impact will realign the steel molecules. I know what you are thinking.
You have nothing to lose.
As for tag lines, here is my favorite, and what I used to tell my students (one of my jobs was teaching at Ft Leavenworth in the CGSC).
"Hope is not a course of action"
As in, I hope the enemy does not do this.

"hope is not a course of action" gonna steal that one, kids will roll their eyes this summer
As to rifle, as it was a prospect for one of the kids that works for me and she is shooting my 300 RCM 20" barrel with no problems I think we will just abandon this project before I take the hammer to it.

I did look into the bergara web site and their test load for this rifle is a 120 grn bullet at reduced loads, so not going to get into it with them as I am looking to get 140 monos or 150 lead to shoot through it. time to quit hoping

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
New bregara, 7mm-08 , three different bullets. three shots ea without letting barrel cool. first one on zero, next two (almost touching) 1.5 inch rt and a bit low.
Had been working up loads with cold barrel each shot and now went to test 3 at a time. have checked mounts, rings and action screw tourque.
seirra 150 sbt
CEB 132
Hornady 154 rn
mid range on velositys

The problem is in ....the 3 different bullets... you mentioned. The aerodynamics of bullets and bearing surface differ and that is why you will get different velocities and point of impact.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader270:

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
New bregara, 7mm-08 , three different bullets. three shots ea without letting barrel cool. first one on zero, next two (almost touching) 1.5 inch rt and a bit low.
Had been working up loads with cold barrel each shot and now went to test 3 at a time. have checked mounts, rings and action screw tourque.
seirra 150 sbt
CEB 132
Hornady 154 rn
mid range on velositys

The problem is in ....the 3 different bullets... you mentioned. The aerodynamics of bullets and bearing surface differ and that is why you will get different velocities and point of impact.

the first shot of each group of three different bullets is in the little black square, the second and third shot of each different group of bullets is aprox 1.5 inch to right and a little low. two holes each time almost touching. Same patten for three differnt types of bullets.

Everyone is dealing with a non existing problem if I read his post correctly..shooting 1.5 inches away from another group?? using different bullet is not uncommon at all and pretty damn good accurate rifle. DID I MISS SOMETHING?

I believe he's saying the problem exists, one dead on, two away, when shooting 3 shot groups from each of three different bullets.
The rifle is acting consistant.

Ray
The op was saying that no matter which load he shot, his groups all formed the same way. First shot dead on and then the next two and inch right and a bit low.
He tried three different loads with different bullets to see if his gun didn’t like a particular bullet but got the same results each time.
My personal opinion is that he is blessed with a rifle that puts any bullet dead on first shot. An inch right and a bit low “don’t bother me much” to paraphrase Shania Twain.
Heck I can do that by different breathing breaking the shot.

Here's a link to a target with what you do wrong to make a bullet strike where it does;
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/637681628465600892/

And here is a link to what causes most people to think a 1/2” group at 100 yards is normal.
Www.ishotoneoncebyaccident.com.
Seriously, very little way to isolate the variables with 3 shot groups over sandbags even. If your rifle lands that first shot dead on and then goes right by an inch and a bit low and you can do that with three different loads and bullets; buy a tag, throw a party and go hunting sir. Others have told you good reasons why barrels do this and they are right. I’m telling you it doesn’t matter if that is the size of the problem.
Happy shooting sir.

quote:

Clean and start over,

personally this is what I think the problem is.

try letting the rifle stay dirty.
I have a couple I ain't cleaned since the 90's.

fury01 has it right. Using a shooting rest so I doubt tecnique is issue as I am shooting other rifle at same session and not having same issue. Just thought the pattern was interesting. Yes Im probasbly being too picky. I do like to see my hunting rifles put the first three close to 1". Mostly it just gives me confidence. Only time I used all 4 was a pig I shot on driven hunt that got up and (by chance ) ran my direction stumbleing and zig zaging. I missed 2,3 and 4 then hid behind a tree. It fell dead about 30 yard past me. sub MOA wouldnt have made a difference

One more issue in this process is that componets are getting somewhat scarce/ exspensive, Not a good time to buy 2 or 3 different powders, couple different bullets and bang away with abandon for a couple weeks. Getting stingy with me primers these days.

All except the barrel are red herrings, leading you astray from the actual problem. No need to waste any more components on it.
Either live with it or get a new barrel. I've seen this before. I've even had it with a major barrel maker whose name I will not reveal. Improver stress relieving.

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
New bregara, 7mm-08 , three different bullets. three shots ea without letting barrel cool. first one on zero, next two (almost touching) 1.5 inch rt and a bit low.
Had been working up loads with cold barrel each shot and now went to test 3 at a time. have checked mounts, rings and action screw tourque.
seirra 150 sbt
CEB 132
Hornady 154 rn
mid range on velositys

Flinching.

Howdy!

This is fascinating to me. I am a relatively new shooter. I picked the total wrong time to "invest" in reloading setup it seems since everything has been sold out for MONTHS!

I been around firearms since a kid but never really got into the spirit as an adult until 2016. Got family that's big into it all but they live far away from me so it's like I'm learning how to re-invent the wheel it seems sometimes.

Seems like there is a LOT of knowledge here.

I bought parts for and assembled some AR type rifles over the past 4 years. Reading this thread has me wondering if I didn't screw something up along the way while assembling them. I realize that I won't get the same accuracy as a bolt rifle will offer. Soon I plan to get a bolt action.

It seems it would be nice to know which companies do the stress relieve process and which do not... Bergara was on my short list along with Christensen Arms. still saving the pennies though...

And by the way, who is this "Deming" person? All I find online are financial books.

Use flatbase bullets only, as your base load, then try BT.
Flatbase will shoot more consistent.
With a 7-08 , I would use the 120, 140 Sierra pro hunter, if that does not work, send it back.
Partitions will generally shoot well too

W. Edward Deming, Deming hit on the idea of using statistics to quantify the manufacturing process in a nutshell.

The Japanese after WW2 used his techniques to rebuild their manufacturing process after the war.

Id just go hunting, you have no problem..

all rifles don't shoot 1/2" and the truth is all the factory requires of a bolt action rifle is a 3" group when testing..Most can be made to shoot better with a little tinkering but yours is pretty darn solid and consistant..

Without going into the wheres and where ofs, your dealing with barrel viberations, and perhaps inletting.