Alf, I like your posts, they are quite educational. I especially like the chart for mean barrel pressure plotted for bore diamater to muzzle energy. For me, it clearly shows that larger bore diameter cartridges are more efficient than smaller bore diameter cartridges. This matches my experience. Indeed, lately I've become quite a fan of the .338-06 Ackley Improved - a very efficent cartridge and one I wish I'd stumbled upon sooner in my hunting career. I'm able to get over 4000 ft.# of energy from an '06 case and a 26" barrel with 225 gr. bullets (Accubond) and 63 grs of Normal 204 powder - and the cases hold their primer pockets. Awesome! Regards, AIU

I tend to believe in “faster” vs. “slower” barrels. I believe the cause is likely related to average barrel friction, somewhat akin to why one can get higher velocity at the same max pressure with lubricated bullets vs. non-lubricated bullets. The best illustration of this effect can be demonstrated in the Barnes Reloading Manual (No. 3), wherein the XLC bullets (no longer available) achieve consistently higher velocity at the same max pressure. When using the same powder charge, with the slick lower-friction, blue-coated XLC bullets, pressure and velocity are reduced when compared to non-coated Barnes bullets. However, when pressure is again increased to max safe limits with more powder, velocity increases – indeed, with the XLC coated bullets you can expect increases up to 200 fps in velocity over non-coated Barnes bullets. This is consistently shown in this reloading manual.

Now imagine a well-crafted barrel with a smooth, finely machined bore that produces a similar net effect as the XLC coated bullets – clearly not all bores are of the same precision and quality. Such a barrel would be a “fast” barrel, when compared to lesser quality barrels. With such a fine instrument one could achieve the same safe max pressures, but with more powder, and more powder means more energy behind the bullet and more velocity. Everything else being equal. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:

BTW, where`s HotCore?
I`m getting the feeling he tossed this out and then sat back just to see if someone would take the bait and provide him some intertainment.....

Hmmmm! Could that possibly be true? A good fisherman presents the bait as best he can. When do you intend to set the hook HC? roger

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
BTW, where`s HotCore?
I`m getting the feeling he tossed this out and then sat back just to see if someone would take the bait and provide him some intertainment.....

Hey Ol` Joe, I am enjoying the thread, all the perspectives and thinking about the responses. I don't mind the drifting around a bit, but I also appreciate AC pulling the thread back to the "wording" of Fast & Slow Barrels.

I'm not ignoring anyone and certainly appreciated Fjold's and muck's take on the Barrels.

I'm drawn back to Mr Hurley's post, because it tends to be similar to my thoughts - as well as many others on the thread.
-----

If any Rookies or Beginners have gotten this far, alf has copied some interesting stuff out of some Manuals, but has drawn some WRONG conclusions - as usual. Jeffe and DJ appear to be getting some of that straightened out.
-----

quote:

DJ:
Hot Core, I remember your justifications for believing in fast barrels but until you hook those rifles up to a pressure guage you can't prove your point. ...DJ

Hey DJ, I did right well proving it to myself with CHE/PRE and a chronograph(when I was still using a chronograph). However, I support your efforts to get someone with a (totally worthless) HSGS to run the Tests. Here is a chance for Larry and Dave to shine and I can't even get them to toss a Pressure Curve in the thread. Maybe they don't actually have M43s .
-----

Ol` Joe, If I was doing this over, I'd also include a second part. It is something you first made a reference to and DJ, as well as others, where you all are talking about - "If the Pressure is adjusted to approximately the same amount in two rifles chambered for the same Cartridge, do you have a Faster and Slower Barrel situation?

quote:

This is addressed very well by AIUs example:
The best illustration of this effect can be demonstrated in the Barnes Reloading Manual (No. 3), wherein the XLC bullets (no longer available) achieve consistently higher velocity at the same max pressure.

I'm sure that is Yes, because I've done a similar Test before. But I believe the reason is because of all the reasons combined by everyone which address Variations in both the Chamber and the Bore between firearms.
-----

For those of you who answered No or Other, I appreciate your thoughts on the issue too. How could you all be so WRONG???

Darn shame "shootaway" hasn't cleared this up for us!

Now, I'm just a poor country boy, but it seems obvious to me there are faster and slower barrels. We can argue all day as to the why of it, it could be bore finish, chamber dimensions, land and groove dimensions, variations in the rifleing, or even the easter bunny and solar flares. I don't know. I'm sure the reasons are myriad and proof will always be elusive. But grab 5 identical (sic) production rifles off the shelf, chrono 50 rounds of ammo from the same lot down each, and I can NEARLY guarantee you they won't average the same. Maybe close, maybe not.

We accept that not all individual rifles in a certain model shoot with the same accuracy, whay would we think they shot the same speed at the same pressure as well? Sometimes in production things go together "right" and sometimes they don't. Maybe slow barrels are made on Fridays.

Charlie Brown says it's The Great Pumpkin that's causing it. Or maybe Lucy...

Some things are simply beyond our full understanding. My old Physics prof explained to his students that, if they went far enough in their study of Physics, at some point they would encounter unexpected behaviors and experiment results that mere human logic couldn't satisfactorily explain. Not being able to exceed the speed of light is perhaps one of the more common examples. The prof further explained that a group of the most famous & revered mathematical minds of modern times, when faced with and questioned about these seeming anomalies, after long and arduous consultation & deliberation, concluded that "God, in his infinite wisdom, saw fit to make it that way."
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

DJ:
Hot Core, I remember your justifications for believing in fast barrels but until you hook those rifles up to a pressure guage you can't prove your point. ...DJ

Hey DJ, I did right well proving it to myself with CHE/PRE and a chronograph(when I was still using a chronograph). However, I support your efforts to get someone with a (totally worthless) HSGS to run the Tests. Here is a chance for Larry and Dave to shine and I can't even get them to toss a Pressure Curve in the thread. Maybe they don't actually have M43s

You may have proved it to yourself by Case Head Expansion but you haven't proven it to anyone who knows how unreliable Case Head Expansion is at determining pressures. For decades the guys that wrote the reloading manuals used Case head expansion and other traditional Pressure signs to come up with the loads in their books. Now that affordable pressure testing equipment has become available they are rewriting most of the old manuals - usually signifigantly downwards when they saw how wrong they were by using CHE and the traditional methods.

You can continue to believe it but anyone with sense and/or pressure testing equipment will still consider such data suspect.

Now understand this is not to say that I never measure case head expansion myself. I just consider any conclusions I get from it as UNPROVEN until I can get actual pressure testing data.



I think that one of the earlier posters made a good point about the definition of fast and slow barrels. It should be a given that we all understand that not ever barrel of the same length in the same caliber is going to shoot the exact same velocities. When I say I don't beleive in "fast" barrels it's that I don't believe that there are individual barrels that will allow you to acheive 150-250fps more velocity with the same bullets, powder, primer, case etc than everyone else does unless you are loading to higher pressures.
Most of the guys I've seen bragging about their "fast" barrels and the velocities they get allways seem to be using a few grains over the max listed charges of powder but somehow they are magically acheiving the high velocities without high pressures - it's BS.
I have seen a couple barrels that would acheive equal to normal max velocities with less than max loads of powder - loading them with max loads would give over normal max velocities but it was obvious that pressures were high too.

I just think that some people think they are too clever by half. Don't overload a given round to get higher velocities, buy a bigger gun.................................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
DJ,
pick ONE manual .. just one .. open the page to the 30-06, and note that there are probably 20 powders, delivering a velocity. That threshold is explained by Alf before .. Please, you wouldn't use the starting load from book A and the top load of book B and think they are the same load data. How many questions in this forum start out with "one reloading manual says X grains max, and another says X-y, which is right?"
You aren't correcting me, rather further proving my POINT, otherwise you are stating that you firmly believe all reloading manuals are willinilly and have no value,.

Let's take the 45/70, as a "3 load values" to PERFECTLY prove my point

Let's say that the trapdoor load is 28Kpsi/cupp (this is the only time they are the same). .. and the ruger #1 as, oh, 55kCUP (it doesn't matter)...

There are NO high pressure loads in the load pressure loading section .. NONE.

Why?
There is a benchmark that they are loading to, and they classify them.

We agree, and you have stated it perfectly. I do thank you for that example .. You have CLEANLY stated, in the case of the 45/70, that there are OBVIOUS pressure levels, and aren't intermixed.

We are now in violent agreeement.

Alf even states this to be true - that modern reloading books don't just guess at that pressure level, they use lab gauges to read the pressure.

Gentlemen, its inescapable.

Jeffeosso, you are still missing the point.

Reloading manuals DON'T always load all the loads for a given caliber and bullet weight to the same Pressure level.

Alf gave a good example as when in some of the manuals that list several bullets of the same weight they are going to list the lowest powder charge that gives the maximum pressures for any of the bullets, it might very well be less for one of the easier to push through the bore bullets.
Another example is when some powders are known to be a little unpredictable in certain rounds at certain pressure levels. IMR-3031 comes to mind. It might work just fine at lower than max pressure levels but get a little spikey at higher pressures than some other powders. A reloading manual would use a lower maximum pressure for this powder compared to others.
Yet another is when some manuals list "Accuracy" loads. Often these are below max pressure but tend to shoot well in most guns so they list them.

SO again; THE ONLY TIME YOU KNOW THE PRESSURE THEY GOT WITH SPECIFIC LOADS IS WHEN THEY PRINT IT!

DON'T ASSUME they are all the same pressures!

.......................................DJ

Dj,
we can agree to believe however we wish. I have seen the exceptions, as well. The bulk of the loads, which kinda says "it depends" are in this line, and there are exceptions to prove the rule.

No point in fightin over it, I doubt we'd convince each other otherwise, honestly, it doesn't matter, as we are talking about EXACTLY book loads.

ya'll be good
j

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Ol` Joe, If I was doing this over, I'd also include a second part. It is something you first made a reference to and DJ, as well as others, where you all are talking about - "If the Pressure is adjusted to approximately the same amount in two rifles chambered for the same Cartridge, do you have a Faster and Slower Barrel situation? ...

How about it Ol` Joe?

I'll help you out a bit. You take the rifle with the barrel you found to have the Highest Velocity with the Factory Ammo(rifle "A") and develop a Safe Max Load for it. Of course you use the never improved upon, always reliable and repeatable, CHE & PRE to determine when you reach the Safe Max, since that is the only "sensable" way to do it(using DJ's word, but in the proper context ).

Next you develop a Load for the other rifle(rifle "B", which had Less Velocity with Factory Ammo) and take it to the same Safe Max as the first rifle using Cases, Primers, Powder and Bullets from the same Lots as before. And of course since you still have good sense, you continue to use CHE & PRE to determine the Safe Max.

Now which rifle has the Highest Velocity? Or as I would say, has the Fastest Barrel.
-----

From all the excellent input in the thread, it seems obvious to me if we have two rifles, the following is true:
1. Rifle "A" will be Faster with Factory Ammo than rifle "B".
2. Rifle "B" will be Faster with Reloaded Ammo than rifle "A", when both are loaded to the same Pressure with the same components.

And the reason for that is you are burning "more Powder" in rifle "B" to get to that same Pressure.
-----

How `bout it Ol` Joe?

Does anyone else agree, or are "some of you all" still WRONG?!?!?!?!
-----

Where is Bobby Tomek?

Hey HC, got a topic for ya over in small calibers. Check it out.

It amazes me how a thread like this is getting so much mileage! Author?***OPINION?***loose definition?#####What??? roger

(tolerances) tight lose Like women

I agree HC, but I think you may be the only one posting on this thread with the expertise/experience with CHE/PRE to do the experiment. I might be able to pull it off with my case expansion measuring technique - that is, primer pocket feel. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I did right well proving it to myself with CHE/PRE and a chronograph(when I was still using a chronograph). However, I support your efforts to get someone with a (totally worthless) HSGS to run the Tests. Here is a chance for Larry and Dave to shine and I can't even get them to toss a Pressure Curve in the thread. Maybe they don't actually have M43s .

I don't need to shine; I prefer matte.

And like you HotCore, I'm allowed to selectively choose when and when not to respond to someone's posting. Like you not responding to my posting in your thread titled, "CHE. Does it really tell you anything important?" (which, by the way, turned into a show-n-tell of dead critter pics)

So take the fish hook from your little fishermen and cram it! Oh, and don't get carpal tunnel syndrome from continually stirring the pot. I could post pressure curve data from now until doomsday and you'd still claim it to be totally worthless. So why would I bother?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
...Like you not responding to my posting in your thread titled, "CHE. Does it really tell you anything important?" ...

Hey Dave, I'll go back and answer what ever you asked.

Fast.... 1-14 twist....
Slow.... 1-7 twist....

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:
Fast.... 1-14 twist....
Slow.... 1-7 twist....

I stand corrected they really do exist! ....................DJ

quote:

And the reason for that is you are burning "more Powder" in rifle "B" to get to that same Pressure.

I believe this to be the reason I get higher than 'normal' velocity from my hornet. That and my loading technique combined. Case shape plays a role too I think, and powder selection. I guess you could say I have a 'fast barrel'. Case thickness plays a significant role in my hornet so that would mean we have fast and slow cases too! Talking hornets, some folks get higher velocity by crimping their loads, so by that token, a 'fast barrel' could be one that gives more resistance to bullet engraving resulting in a more efficient burn without actually raising peak pressure much but raising mean pressure somewhat. Just a thought.

Interesting thread, Hot Core. (And fun!)

It would be great if someone with a M43 would chime in and tell us how 'fast' and 'slow' barrels compare in the pressure trace department.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I agree HC, but I think you may be the only one posting on this thread with the expertise/experience with CHE/PRE to do the experiment. I might be able to pull it off with my case expansion measuring technique - that is, primer pocket feel. Regards, AIU

Hey AIU, Primer pocket feel should work too.

If you try doing it with Micrometers, just use the Instructions in the Link. I suspect Dave actually uses CHE & PRE to make sure he doesn't hurt himself with the HSGS.

The PRE part is real easy. You just rotate the Case until you locate the High Spot on the Pressure Ring. Beginners "might" hose-up 1-2 Cases in getting the feel for it. The "Trick" is for the Case to barely "hang" between the anvils.

CHE is a snap with a Rebated Rim or Belted Cases using regular old Round Anvil Micrometers. Just Measure in the exact same spot before and after Shooting. Thin Blade Micrometers are needed on the 223Rem, 308Win and 30-06 families of Cases.

By the way, occasionally the CHE number will be smaller after shooting, which should make Dave's day. Anyone care to speculate why that is so? And it is the reason why it is a good idea to "Average the CHE" of a few Cases during Load Development. Granted it is not as bad as a Strain gauge falling off, or falling over the Strain Gauge wires which in turn yankes the rifle to the ground,or the wires loose.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I suspect Dave actually uses CHE & PRE to make sure he doesn't hurt himself with the HSGS.

Wrong again. Cause I could not find a reloading supplier company that offered a thin blade mic that was .0001" capable. My regular anvil mic wouldn't do the job as most of my cartridges are in the 223 and 30-06 family.

Why would I hurt myself using the M43? I compare my reloads to factory loads. Hopefully, I can make my ammo better fitting and more precise than those mass produced. I have fun along the way and a permanent record to refer to later on.

303guy, Oehler only sells industrial systems anymore. But feel free to buy a Pressure Trace unit to cure your curiosity. Then YOU can endure HotCore's wrath!

HC, where did you buy your micrometer and which model was it? I'm about ready to try CHE/PRE. Regards, AIU

quote:

But feel free to buy a Pressure Trace unit to cure your curiosity.

OOh hoo hoo hooo! Don't tempt me. I would spend all my free time on the range, experimenting! But allas, I don't have the funds.
However, might I temp you into posting some pressure trace readings? Your approach is to challenge so I would imagine you would answer quite a few of my 'questions'. A fresh thread perhaps?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
HC, where did you buy your micrometer and which model was it? I'm about ready to try CHE/PRE. Regards, AIU

HEY AIU, I got my standard 0.0001" capable Micrometers from:
Sam T. Gleaves Co., Inc.

However, I just tried calling both of their numbers and they have been disconnected. Mr. & Mrs. Gleaves were real old when I was buying lots of Measurement Instruments from them, so I figure they have retired. Looked for their "Home Phone" and they must have moved somewhere else for the Retirement. They had a daughter, Adelle, who was an Olympic Gymnast in the early `70s and she used to join me and a buddy on Sundays to eat Pizza. We had a Pizza Inn with a Buffet and my buddy Dave Grooner used to say she must have had a "hollow leg" the way she would pack it in. Down right embarrassing for two fellows our size(both about 235 back then) to be out-eaten by a tiny girl who might have gone 105 - Pitiful!!!

But, the good news is, you can probably find them at less cost on the net. Places like Widners, Cabelas, Natchez, Midsouth, Graf's,etc., used to carry them. However they were carrying the RCBS Brand Micrometers and had more than one style listed. I'm not sure they carried a Thin Blade Model.

My Thin Blade 0.0001" capable Micrometer is a Mitutoyo No.122-125. I got this one in a Pawn Shop for $25. These are normally relatively expensive and were aboult $145-$170 back in 1988.
My Round Anvil 0.0001" capable Micrometer is also a Mitutoyo and is the No. 103-260. These were $56 in 1988 from Mrs. Gleaves.

That was the last Catalog I got from them that had a Price List in it.

I've used this type for many years, so they are relatively fast "for me". However, if you look at the ones like Widener's, etal. carry, you can get Digital Styles for not much more than my old Spindle Style. Lots of very excellent Measurement Instruments are available from lots of companies.

If you know anyone who works in a Quality Department, a Mechanical Manufacturing facility, or any Machine Shop, they will be able to show you different kinds and let you handle them a bit. The Digital Micrometers are extremely sensative and can "shift values" as you are trying to read them. For someone who is not used to them, they would be harder to read than the old Spindle Style. Anyone who uses them can show you how to read them in maybe 3-5min.

Best of luck to you.
-----

From Graf's:
Fixed Spindle Micrometer &17.99
Mechanical Digital Micrometer $23.99
Electronic Digital Micrometer $75.99

Just looked for Widners and it looks like they are out of business.

well, in a 20 minute convo, Ol' Joe and I managed to work out our differences.. We both understand that we had been focusing on the other end of othe equation. Joe's point is that if an identical load is faster-above-sd in one barrel than another, the faster barrel is LIKELY to have a higher pressure.. I agree, that would probably be the case, though we both had ideas where the exception could prove the rule

we then discussed how MAX or PEAK pressure can't have anything whatever to do with MV .. And DJ's posts indicating how we can't assume reloading manuals don't use the same pressure for every load only drives that home. DJ may not like that.. If you have 20 powders that are using different pressure maps, but making simular velocities, then OF COURSE the PEAK pressure isn't driving velocity.

Its a hard one to swallow, in fact, its counter intuitive at face value.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Best of luck to you.
-----

From Graf's:
Fixed Spindle Micrometer &17.99
Mechanical Digital Micrometer $23.99
Electronic Digital Micrometer $75.99

Just looked for Widners and it looks like they are out of business.

quote:

Best of luck to you.

HotCore should have said, good luck on this wild goose chase!

All 3 of his linkys point to the regular, garden variety flat blade micrometer, not the needed thin blade micrometer. It doesn't matter how many other bells and whistles it has, if it doesn't have a thin blade, its useless in measuring CHE on a non-belted case. Then find the one that's .0001" capable.

Wideners is still in business. If you spell their name correctly. http://www.wideners.com/

Great pizza story, Hotcore. Good diversion from the almost impossibility of trying to locate a thin blade mic. Got any 'pig in a poke' or 'needle in a haystack' stories?

Hey Dave, I really appreciate you getting my "Wideners" spelling straightened out. Ever since they quit sending out a flier, I keep forgetting how they spell it. And the result is no money spent there. Good place to buy "some stuff" in the past.
-----

Pig-in-a-Poke stories, huuuummmm.

I remember a fool(maybe his name was dunceton or something similar), who tried to convince me, and everyone else, that the RSI Pressure Trace HSGS was worth buying. He felt you needed it before you could ever fire a single shot without Ka-Boooming the rifle.

He even formulated a bunch of "Hog Wash"(for more Pig-in-a-Poke) and got it listed at their web site. Fudge Factored, Cherry Picked, Maliciously Massaged, False comparison data was his main contribution to a bunch of bologna.

One of my Califoney buddies actually bought one. We had quite a few interesting discussions about it. He wanted to use it to "Detect the difference between Primers in a Load."

How well do you think that went Dave?
----

I'll have to ponder a bit on the Needle-in-the Hay Stack story.

You could always revert to measuring it over drill blanks with a standard micrometer or is that too old hat? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You could always revert to measuring it over drill blanks with a standard micrometer...

Yeah, that's the ticket! You're a better man than me, Roger, if you can manage to hold the mic in one hand and then balance the case between two drill blanks while rotating the anvil trying to find one half of one ten thousandths of an inch!!! And then repeat doing so a few times just to assure yourself you did it right. If you can, you might want to enter yourself in a Rube Goldberg contest. Talk about other ways to skin a cat? Sheeesh.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You could always revert to measuring it over drill blanks with a standard micrometer...

Yeah, that's the ticket! You're a better man than me, Roger, if

OK Roger

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
...Got any ...'needle in a haystack' stories?

Hey Dave, Finally remembered a Ring in a pile of clinton story.

We were putting up Silage back in the `60s at a neighbors farm. Lots of corn being chopped and blown into a huge Silo. Must have been 12-15 of us boys helping.

Got done and while one of the older boys was washing-up, he noticed his Class Ring was missing. Of course we looked around, but never found it.

I'm pretty sure two years passed and we were putting up Silage again. The boy who had lost the Ring was in the field cutting corn and happened to notice a "Glint" in a small piece of clinton laying on the ground. He kicked at it and out came his ring.

Apparently the Ring had gone into the Silo, into a Dairy cow, through the Cow "in the barn"(and they were only in there twice a day to milk), shoveled outside into the pelosi pile, through the obummer spreader, and onto the corn field before he happened to spot it.

I don't think he ever wore it again though.

TO drag this back off course.. that MAX pressure doesn't determine velocity

Data collected from the 30-06 pressure loads, at the top of the reloading forum

Sorted by Decending Pressure
powder vel pressure
rel19 2843 66700
n560 2849 65600
4831sc 2837 65400
WXR 2884 65000
MRP 2878 63400
rel22 2856 63000


Sorted by Decending Vel
powder vel pressure
WXR 2884 65000
MRP 2878 63400
rel22 2856 63000
n560 2849 65600
rel19 2843 66700
4831sc 2837 65400

With 47 fps, top to bottom, well, that's better SD than most factory AMMO ..

rel19 vs MRP
5% higher pressure resulted in LESS velocity... How can THAT happen, from the same barrel, same bullets, same brass, same LABRATORY test equipment and only difference in Powder (thanks)?

More pressure= LESS velocity?

Tell me, AGAIN, how max pressure determines velocity?

It doesn't .. Max or Peak pressure is a SAFETY margin, not a velocity measure

quote:

How can THAT happen, from the same barrel, same bullets, same brass, same LABRATORY test equipment and only difference in bullets?

You made a typo there. You meant "only difference in powder".

I have a two groove M1903A3 that shoots slow. I was testing the rifle with Talon Surplus 4895, and the velocities were consistently less than what I expected in other rifles.

Incidentally, this two groove barrel was new. I put it on myself, cut the chamber to depth with a reamer.

As a comparision, I have one string with a SAKO 30-06 and the same load. It is faster.

Go shoot my favorite target load of a 168 Nosler (or SMK) with 47.0 grains IMR 4895. You should get velocities closer to 2650-2700 fps, instead of the 2514 that the M1903A3 produced.

M1903A3 24 inch barrel

Two Groove Barrel

174 FMJBT 47.5 grs TAL 4895 WWII case WLR (brass finish) 1 Dec 01 T = 52 ° F

Ave Vel = 2387
Std Dev = 19
ES = 67
Low = 2351
High = 2418
N = 16

174 FMJBT 47.5 grs TAL 4895 WWII cases WLR (brass finish) 22 Dec 01 T = 54 ° F

Ave Vel = 2437
Std Dev = 26
ES = 91
Low = 2394
High = 2485
N = 10

168 Nosler 47.0 grs IMR 4895 W/W cases WLR (brass finish)primers 22 Dec 01 T = 54 ° F

Ave Vel = 2514
Std Dev = 29
ES = 101
Low = 2456
High = 2557
N = 15



SAKO 24" Barrel

174 FMJBT 47.5 TAL 4895 WLR WWII cases

17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F OAL 3.290"

Ave Vel = 2535
Std Dev = 34.79
ES = 123.7
High = 2625
Low = 2502
N = 14

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

Wrong again. Cause I could not find a reloading supplier company that offered a thin blade mic that was .0001" capable.

Long Island Indicators is always the best place to buy this kind of stuff.

Your welcome.

Thanks Woods, but I don't need one. At $259 + shipping Hotcore could buy a dozen and distribute them to all his CHE\PRE impaired friends!