I have the Lee Dies....[FLR and Collect Dies]

My question concerns resizing... PRACTICE vs HUNTING ammo

Do you FLR both or would you PFLR or Neck size your practice ammo with the same grains of powder as your hunting ammo?

I'm thinking along the lines of getting maximum brass life from my practice ammo then only FLR hunting ammo.

Also, being that the brass should be a wee bit larger on the PFLR/Neck-sized ammo vs the FLR hunting ammo will I have a change in POI to be concerned about?

What do you folks recommend?

I have no "practice" and "hunting" ammo. I work up a load and use it for both. Why worry or have to jack with changing things going from the range to hunting. I do a PFLR pretty much at all times. If I want to go shoot jugs, put holes in paper or shoot a bull elk the same box of ammo goes with me.

The life gain from neck vs PFLR can't be more than one or two loading if that.

Your thinking on sizing is good. Accuracy or POI should not be affected much at all. You can easily check that out. roger

"How" a case is resized is not nearly so important as how the case fits the chamber.

I've seen "full length sized" cartridges refuse to chamber about as often as "neck sized" cartridges.

The key for hunting ammunition is simply to take the time (all of five minutes at most for a couple of boxes of shells) to run EVERY finished cartridge through the chamber to assure that it has no dimensional problems. A cartridge which has proven to chamber is much better than one that is "believed" to chamber simply because you ran it all the way into a die marked "FL".

Let me assure you, I've seen plenty of dimensional incompatabilities in dies and chambers in 40+ years of reloading to know that "full length sizing" is no panacea.

ramrod340-

Hmmm...

I was lead to believe it was the norm to FLR hunting loads

quote:

Hmmm...

I was lead to believe it was the norm to FLR hunting loads

I'm sure some do with running the die to the shell holder as the definition of FLR.

I don't I set my die up to touch+ the shoulder. If the brass happens to get tight I touch it a little harder. Yes I'm doing more than neck sizing but not near what a FL would do. If you PFLR and your case have no trouble chambering what is the purpose of FL sizing? Other than my 223 for my AR and pistol brass I don't believe I FL anything.

There was a thread a couple months ago I believe I quoted FL. I don't neck size unless it is a neck size die. I set my FL die up to touch and or bump if need the shoulder and lock it down. To me that is FL the case to my chambers headspace most call it PFLR.

If you want the rounds that count to go the same place as the rounds you practice with, you should not introduce a new variable into your loading of those rounds..............

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:
I was lead to believe it was the norm to FLR hunting loads

I'd say that is an excellent idea when Hunting in Dangerous Game country. Otherwise, always P-FLR for the best possible accuracy and longest case life.

It is just a good idea that no matter whether the rounds are new or reloaded, run them through the rifle once to make sure they all fit and feed.

Other than using a modicum of care to make sure you don't mash the bullet tips it only takes a couple of minutes and then you reduce the "surprise factor" by quite a lot.

Thank you gents I appreciate you clearing up the subject for me



ramrod340- I got it now and I appreciate what you're saying...it makes sense to me

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
I have no "practice" and "hunting" ammo. I work up a load and use it for both. Why worry or have to jack with changing things going from the range to hunting. I do a PFLR pretty much at all times. If I want to go shoot jugs, put holes in paper or shoot a bull elk the same box of ammo goes with me.

The life gain from neck vs PFLR can't be more than one or two loading if that.

+1

The idea of practice is to know EXACTLY what the ammo, rifle & I can do at a given range - say 350 meter max in my case.

This means I develop the chosen load and use it for practice as well as hunting.

I do use other practice loads on the range, but again, I load them the same way.

I PFLS all my cases now (I got the Hornady thingy recently) and am very please with the consistency & reliability of the ammo.

I cycle ALL my ammo through the rifles and make sure that chambering is smooth.

FL versus PFL sizing will definitely affect pressure, velocity & accuracy / precision. I believe it will affect POI at longer ranges.

I'm in a different school. And it has to do with bullets, not brass. I prepare all my brass the same way because it may be called on to be practice brass or hunting brass. However, during the off season, I will load up practice ammo with the cheapest bullet I can find that is of a like weight to what I will be hunting with. Often I don't even re-sight the rifle for shooting the cheap stuff since I am practicing field positions and rifle handling techniques and group shooting. Where the two different bullets are grouping is usually pretty close anyway. When it is time to go hunting, I load up the good stuff, check my zero and I'm ready to go.
I've heard the noise about shooting the same bullet as the difference in cost isn't that much. All I can say to that is it must be some box a year shooter talking. When you stay in practice with several different rifles, that can amount to a nice piece of change if you're shooting some dollar a pop bullet.

Thanks gang!

I'll be using the Lee Collet Die for the first 2-3x, then PFLR to bump the shoulder back a thousandth or two and make sure they chamber well

wasbeeman-

Good point... in these deer rifles I'm now loading,... my practice ammo is my hunting ammo

270W/WinPP130gr
25-06/Horn117grBTSP
6.5x55/RemCL120gr
30-06/WinPP150gr

What's P-FLR mean?

partial full length resizing

quote:

Originally posted by amamnn:
If you want the rounds that count to go the same place as the rounds you practice with, you should not introduce a new variable into your loading of those rounds..............

+100!!

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I'm in a different school. And it has to do with bullets, not brass. I prepare all my brass the same way because it may be called on to be practice brass or hunting brass. However, during the off season, I will load up practice ammo with the cheapest bullet I can find that is of a like weight to what I will be hunting with. Often I don't even re-sight the rifle for shooting the cheap stuff since I am practicing field positions and rifle handling techniques and group shooting. Where the two different bullets are grouping is usually pretty close anyway. When it is time to go hunting, I load up the good stuff, check my zero and I'm ready to go.
I've heard the noise about shooting the same bullet as the difference in cost isn't that much. All I can say to that is it must be some box a year shooter talking. When you stay in practice with several different rifles, that can amount to a nice piece of change if you're shooting some dollar a pop bullet.

I buy them in 500 ct boxes to avoid that problem..

I pretty much shoot what I practice on the game I hunt. I don't have the burning need to try and shave a few pennies off the price of each round as I don't shoot bullets that cost $1.50 each. I believe in buying the 250 or 500 boxes for my varmint rigs when I can

I follow the number of times my batches of brass are used and if I start having issues I might do a FL on them. On my bolt guns all I normally do is neck size. My autos like my AR's, M1A's etc are are FL resized.

My big magnums aren't shot that much so 100 new cases last a longtime. If I do reload them then it is a FL sizing.

I shoot enough throughout the year with a multitude of rifles that I keep my hand in pretty well across the board. I have my varmint rifles set up for very close drop tables and that saves a lot of headache..

Greg

Greg,

I appreciate your comments

The savings is still there if you buy your practice bullets in 500-1000 counts.

And FWIW, I've never seen the premium bullets for sale in 500 counts.

I can tell you one thing for certain...I have NEVER saved a dam** nickel overall by reloading...in fact I suspect the cost of each round, amortized over the years including the costs of all the components, tools, time, etc, etc, etc, brings the cost factor up maybe 5 times the cost of just buying factory ammo...and all those reloads were necessarily equal to or better than factory "stuff".

This "economy stuff" is just a snow job by the sellers of reloading components to keep us BUYING...

As far as which or how much to resize, that bucket of worms is so large NO ONE can find the bottom.

"Most" factory rifles AND shooters will NEVER approach the level of accuracy to really test which sizing does what, NOR will those same people do the required amount of testing to actually wring out any "imagined" improvement...there are just too many variables and WAY too much smoke being blown.

Each rifle is individual and YOU need to find out just how YOUR rifle responds to WHAT sizing.

I've used Lee "hammer" type dies way in the past to load "bughole" ammo that would keep bugholing for maybe 3 reloads then COULDN'T be re-inserted into the chamber minutes after being fired...OR after being resized in the Lee dies...I had to FLR in another sizer.

Everyone has their level of acceptable accuracy...their level of shooting requirements...and their prejudices concerning ALL aspects of shooting and reloading.

I DON'T load "practice" ammo...to me that is an oxymoron...WHAT do you think you are practicing...???...what do you think you are learning.??? It is a waste of time AND money...and a good way to get into trouble if you happen to be thinking of shooting dangerous game...you are teaching you muscles the wrong thing.

Greg, Paul, Jeff, Nakihunter all said it right...practice with the ammo you hunt with!!!

I reality you need to learn YOUR gun and do what YOU want to do...and forget all the hot air being wafted about, except maybe to give you some ideas of areas you need to work on.

There are tons of opinions and ounces of actual knowledge.

Luck

Let's see, rifle handling technique, sight pictures, familarity with the rifle, acclimation to recoil, etc. I guess that counts for nothing unless you're shooting a high dollar bullet. I guess too that high level shooters of hyper accurate rifle that shoot in competition don't practice dry firing. Aw shucks, if it ain't got a bullet in it, you can't learn anything. ROFLMAO.

By the way, why can't you test RELATIVE accuracy with a factory rifle??

You're right. Lotsa hot air.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
You're right. Lotsa hot air.

Please tell me what "Relative Accuracy" means to you so I can understand just what you mean and be sure to be on the same page.

I thought we were talking about burning powder, "practice ammo vs hunting ammo" NOT all the nuances of the "normal" gun handling learning process fer Chris'sakes...one would suppose all that good stuff was going on all the time during the whole process...or do we have to continually "wiggleword" to cover every aspect and every nuance...YEAH...HO-TAIR.

Luck

Pretty simple: if you're shooting one loading that aggs 2.00" and you try another and it aggs 1.5", the the one is relatively more accurate IN THAT RIFLE than the other.
And, I think you confirm my point, if we're just talking about burning powder. Some of us have not reached the zenith of knowledge and are still within the learning curve of the rifle handling process and so burning powder can (should) be a composite learning experience. Rather than, simply knowing that if you pull the little hangy down thing under the rifle, it goes boom. Ergo, the more powder you make go boom, with the proper approach, the better shot you become. You do agree with this don't you?
This brings us right back to my original post: During the off season, the more powder you make go boom, the better off you will be during hunting season. And by using a cheaper bullet, you can get a lot more bang for your bucks. And you won't have to shoot 3 shot groups "because it's cheaper."
Finally, FWIW, I have found that a 150gr Core Lokt bullet will hit awfully close to the same spot a 150gr NP hits and you can get some pretty tight groups.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
I have no "practice" and "hunting" ammo. I work up a load and use it for both. Why worry or have to jack with changing things going from the range to hunting. I do a PFLR pretty much at all times. If I want to go shoot jugs, put holes in paper or shoot a bull elk the same box of ammo goes with me.

The life gain from neck vs PFLR can't be more than one or two loading if that.

+1

In my view you should hunt (or use) what you practice with… only way to insure consistency…

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
The key for hunting ammunition is simply to take the time (all of five minutes at most for a couple of boxes of shells) to run EVERY finished cartridge through the chamber to assure that it has no dimensional problems.

+1

A good thread....lots of constructive posting....

I have hunting guns and varmint guns...all the hunting guns are loaded with one load....Period!

All my hunting loads are for a class of animal...deer, elk, larger etc...

All my hunting rounds are full length resized...

Every cartridge is checked to insure it fits the chamber prior to taking it hunting.....

While a couple of my guns are loaded extremely hot, most are loaded slightly under book max.... My guess is under 60,000 PSI but no proof of it....The only guns I load hot are my push feed Remington and Winchesters.....all the CRFs are loaded conservatively....

There is no such thing as practice ammo and hunting ammo except at sight in time.... I use cheap bullets to sight in a rifle and then confirm the sighting with (usually) bonded bullets which I prefer.....

It's not my job to tell other folks how to waste their money but one would think that anyone above a box a year shooter has learnt that the performance of any say .308 150gr bullet is gonna be closely similar while enroute to the target.
If you want "consistancy", you'd do well to work on your handling techniques whilst making more powder go boom.