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AC wrote this---- "4472 is the REARWARD thrust of the gas column on the LOCKED BREECH +4455 is the FORWARD thrust of the bullet on the barrel." Where is the thrust of the gas on the bullet in his engineering. Well 4472 psi at peak pressure is working on base of bullet.And there sure isn't 4455 of that being transferred to barrel unless bullet was locked in like trying a closed bomb test.Only 20-40% of that thrust is transferred to barrel by bullet as it goes out, that leave an imbalance in favor of the force against breech, causing gun to recoil. But forces causing bullets to move and guns to recoil has to work over a time period. And the average force(psi) in barrel from ignition to bullet out in 3006(using his figures and too high muzzle pressure) is about 2800 psi.And it acts on the bullet and gun about 1.4 miilliseconds(.0014 seconds)And say 40% of the amount applied to bullet(and in most cases it is lower) is imparted to barrel that leaves about 1700 psi working on gun for 1.4 m-sec.And if we use the high muzzle blast that he uses off 1118 psi for about .2 m-sec or even .3 m-sec you can easily see which component is the major part of the recoil.Ed. PS-His stuff is still a snowjob.. MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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I must confess to being a nerd. I am focussed on the content and not the form. AC gets into a combative role here, that I have often found myself in, in lesser forums. Here is the big deal with AC for me: He can calculate local stresses in complex shapes of metal. That is what he does for a living. Who cares? Gun experts ought to. He can calculate the stress in a bolt lug or the stress in a brass case head. How does that do us any good? When the guns and cartridges were designed, they did not have that ability. The guns were overbuilt and then tested. What blew up was made heavier, like the Ruger 454 in 2000. Why does a 357 mag have a thicker web than a 38 Special? Because it needs it? Show me the math. AC can do it. And his predictions about Mauser and .223 case heads, I have verified. Why is this a big deal to me? Because if there are three guys at the gun show talking, they are probably explaining what action is strong enough for what caliber, with phrases like, "No, the xxx was not designed for that much pressure." Here in the gun culture where we are subject to so much fear and ignorance and treated like stupid consumers. If we want to get smarter we may have to look beyond AC's form and style and look to the content. Recoil? I already know how to calculate recoil. -- Be careful what you pray for, it can happen. | |||
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AC, I know how to calculate friction force, and yes the force is calculated as you state, but it is a vector, meaning is has an inherent direction component. Its magnitude is calculated by the forces pressing the objects together, but its direction is in the direction of motion of the objects...or more accurately it RESISTS THE MOTION (180 degrees opposed, always and forever)...so its direction is parallel to the axis of the bore, and I (and Hubel) are correct in our analysis. The problem with sabots 1 kHz sampling rate is that for a 4 ms event (if that is an accurate time for the flight of a projectile down the bore of a main tank gun...I really don't know myself) the realistic maximum number of samples is 4 (5 if the start and end points are hit exactly...never happens in real life)...and that is not enough to accurately AND RELIABLY model the event in question. There are ways to overcome this though...do you know any? One hint, think statistics...and yes, they each have their limitations, but are good enough for rough design parameter calculation, and since safety factors in stuff like this run from 150%-300% or more...rough is usually good enough. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Several of us are looking at the content. We believe it is wrong. One way for us to prove to the outsiders that we are not ignorant rednecks is to fight ingorance within our culture. If this means calling out combative guys here on AR, so be it. I try REALLY hard to not get sucked into name calling, but I also don't let it turn me away... Besides, someone out there might learn a thing or two...and that is always worth something... Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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The AC wrote this-- "the dynamic coefficient is effected by surface velocity?" That is ok, but it doesn't increase friction to the point that all the energy the bullet gained from the explosion is transferred to barrel.There would be none left to accelerate bullet clear of the barrel.....It increases friction up to the point of needing a 1000+ lbs to push 06 bullet through compared to 100-200 lbs pushing bullet with rifling engraved at hand speed on a rod.That speed in the barrel is one of the causes of heat. Then AC says that in the tank barrel experiment that the .004 seconds(4 m-sec) that bullet is in barrel, you can't sample what happens properly with a .001 sampling rate. Some more of his snowjob.Geez you can get 3-4 samples plus start, and easily compare to sensors on the mounts that sheared off. He wants to put that experiment in doubt because is refutes his snowjob. Oh and he ain't the only Yugo Mechanic it appears,The guy who wrote the article at the link above about recoil must be one also. HE starts out by talking about Newton's laws then using screwball physics ignores them.Einstein would roll over in his grave reading that and reading AC also.. He states there is no net ouside forces acting on the gun and bullet.Bullshit. Gun and bullet have weight. They also more importantly have mass, inparted by the action of the earths gravity on them.You move them and the earths gravity is a factor,it is affected and that affects them, gravity is a so-called outside force. And the one accelerated the fastest(bullet)relative to its mass, will resist the most, forcing the other(gun) to recoil also, even though it has more mass. Unless the other(gun) has to much mass, like a 200 lb 3006. Or a 10 lb gun gun firing a 5 gr projectile. It is still a snowjob he is doing. CDH--That sampling rate on tank barrel would still give min 3 readings, 4 readings half the time that could easily be timed to stain/shear gauges on barrel mounts and easily showed mounts shearing while sabot still in barrel. Folks-- the conservation of momentum term the guy and AC use is a red herring. Momentum of both is equal minus friction, but the thing that makes bullet go one way and gun go the other is energy imparted by powder, and item that is gaining the greatest kinetic energy resists the movement the most, through the gravitational field. That is why a 180 gr bullet can make a 70,000gr gun recoil(10 lb gun),It resists and force of explosion recoils gun as well as moving it, the bullet.That is why it takes a 14 million grain gun(200 lbs) to resist the effect of the huge acceleration, applied to a 06 bullet, through the gravitational field.Its the gravitational field's hold on the bullet(the term Mass) that forces the gun to recoil.Just as gravity's hold on the gun(mass) keeps it from going 2800 fps and killing shooter.But you if design gun light enough and bullet heavy enough, you can get recoil energy that would hurt you.Like the 2 bore we are going to do, if it weighed only 15 lbs shooting a half lb projectile 3000 fps...Ed. Oh don't forget, AC=SJ SnowJob.New math??? MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Just some of the comments made on this thread that have 'spelled by doom' by showing my gross ignorance: From Ed Hubel:
From CDH:
From jeffeosso:
------------------------------------------------- I shall never mention this topic again. It is clear to me that I am vastly 'out-gunned' on this one by superior intellect. This is what happens when a simple uncertified mechanic gets into a technical discussion with Electrical Engineers, and technologists, and an Ed Hubel (farmer I believe). I am clearly not in their league. As I stated earlier I am an uncertified mechanic, and 'white trailer park trash' from a swampy plot of earth on the east coast of Florida. I have been exposed as being an ignorant imbecile suffering from an inferiority complex (ref: rugeruser's post ). I will now crawl back to my trailer park and be a properly behaved piece of white trash (read imbecile know nothing). Afterall, there is no way I could possibly discuss vector analysis with the likes of Hubel and CDH. They way smarter than me. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Hey Sabot, You OK? Haven't seen you back in the thread and am a bit concerned about you. If you are OK, let us know. Then go back, reread my question to you, and help me understand what you were saying about the pistol grip and thumbhole stocks. | |||
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AC, while you are at it, you might quote me as well on asking about your reversing of position on rifling and the effect of a smoothbore vs a rifed bore. in fact, you might also quote that I asked for emprical data, not your subjective opinion. and, then again, you might actually read what it takes to become a PE... and if it's so easy, why don't you become one, as you don't "have" to have an engineering degree http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/lic_basic.htm So, enough of the lies and BS from you... why don't you just go hunting? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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jeffeosso, I never reversed any statements with regard to rifles and shotguns. I looked at that website. WOW! I could never pass such a thing in a million years. I not smart enough, heck you need a degree too! I told you, I am just white trailer park trash with a serious inferiority complex (just ask rugeruser). Would you mind answering a question for me. Why do you feel so threatened by me? I figure you feel threatened anyway, cause you fight me about anything I say. I cannot understand why you would feel threatened by me as I am such a pathetic imbecile, and your are so much more knowledgable and smart than me. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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I could read all of this when I want to figure out recoil, or just go to Beartooth Bullets and click on ballisticians corner. Go to recoil calculator and input info. Wasn't there something about "for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction"... Physics class was a LONG time ago... JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Scott, perhaps you function is "fear" or "threats" ... I can't tolerate a liar.
Amazing.. in total denial. you stated that a in a smooth bore, the bullet genrates recoil. then state that you can run a bullet down a rifle's barrel without moving it. Now tell me the effect if you did the SAME thing with a smoothbore (as a smoothbore is GROOVE diameter, so to speak). Never reversed any statements on rifle's or shotguns? AMAzING how many times have you declared you own no firearms, then 3 to 4 common ones, then that you never shot your AHR rifle, then that you actually did "receive"... Now, when cornered on facts, you offer a whining "i am leaving" for three times IN THIS THREAD alone. Rather than offering facts when presented with a simple challenge, you present OPINIONS on a shotgun you have repeatedly said you don't own (just a mossberg 12ga... then benelli) You offend my sense of fairplay and honesty. You repeatedly attack persons, even to the point of telling Rob about the 600 OK.. a round that your "modeling software" says CANT do what the chrono reads and facts prove. You post dangerous loads, present silly questions, and can't possibly actualy say "damn, i was wrong"... jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeff-- As you would want, I feel we're here to learn and help. I'll confess to an error in one area of this discussion, and that is that I stated the time that the gases work on the muzzle was about .2 milliseconds, but it really is about .6 m-sec. Found some info and a way to check the amount of gun recoil speed is due to bullet in barrel and muzzle blast. The military examined the breakdown of where the energy in the powder went to in the bullet moving process.By the way a lb of powder on average has 1,240,000 ft lbs energy, 177 ft lbs per gr.They found that energy was transferred to various places in the the form of heat and kinetic energy-for a 3006 size case------ Heat transferred to case---- 4% Heat transferred to barrel---22% Heat transferred to gases-----19% Heat lost to bullet friction--7% Kinetic energy moving gases---19% Kinetic energy moving bullet, gun--29% By the way if bore is doubled then bullet cross- section is 4 times bigger, but barrel wall is only twice as much area...So relative to the area the pressure from powder has to work on base of bullet, the amount lost to heating the case, barrel, and friction goes down as a percentage of a bigger charge, leaving more for getting heavier bullet out faster.Some straight case big bores have effiencies up to 37-40%. Anyway, looking at the amount lost to friction, made it plain that the amount of energy from bullet being transferred to barrel through friction has been way overstated here. I even thought it was more. I think AC has used the cosine value backwards, that is if it had any bearing on the process, IE, for rifling with 8 degree angle, cosine is .99--- so in reality the amount transferred to pushing on rifling is the .01(1%) left(1 - .99); and that plus the friction which AC says is small and military says is small in its analysis of where the heat goes, means that there isn't a huge amount of energy transferred to barrel from bullet. So I found a way to check to see how much recoil speed is from bullet and the muzzle blast...Using 3006 -- 180 gr bul at 2700 fps- 60 gr powder--10 lb gun... Formula for total recoil velocity is- (bullet wt x velocity) + (powder wt x 4700) divided by gun wt The 4700 is the velocity of the powder out the end when it is uncorked by bullet exiting barrel. Put in above 3006 info and gun recoil velocity is 11 fps .. You then can use this figure in another formula to get recoil energy of the gun. To figure the recoil velocity while bullet is in barrel use same formula to figure the gun recoil from bullet travel just short of leaving barrel.Powder velocity should be about the same as bullet velat that point. It would be-- (bullet wt x vel)+(powder wt x vel) divided by gun wt So putting info in formula gives 9.25 fps recoil velocity imparted while bullet is in barrel..So of the 11 fps total recoil speed, about 9 fps was imparted while bullet was in barrel. The rest was from muzzle blast or jet effect, and to get that much. the time it would work would be about .6 m-sec, not the .2 m-sec I stated earlier.Got that corrected, And it is not the 100 times as much as AC said or the gun would be doing over 50 fps. Important note--Due to the fact that the recoil while bullet is in barrel has gotten the gun up to over 80% of its recoil speed the amount jet effect adds can seem like a lot due to the fact that getting gun started in recoil has been done by bullet, the hard part, starting from a position of rest, and jet affect only has to add to the acceleration. As CDH said above the bullet movement is a vector in one direction and gun is the other in opposite direction.All we are doing is analysing the vector forces.IN 1.4 milliseconds the 180 gr bullet has moved 26 inches to end of barrel and got to 2700 fps ,and the 70000gr(10lb) gun has moved .06 inch and got to 9 fps. Now it won't stop in .06 in very easy and the jet effect added on to that while your shoulder is stopping that, is what makes the jet effect seem more than it really is.....I hope all this helps the understanding of recoil.Ed. MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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OR you could just go to Beartooth Bullets Ballisticians Corner and input the info. Waaaaay easier... JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm Another interesting site, don't know anything about the author. Lots to read, with a grain of salt. Sacred cows make the best burgers. Good Shooting! | |||
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Hotcore--This answer for you.Any stock style with pistol grip, thumbhole pistol grip, gives another part of the body to spread the recoil across.Depending on strength, size of hands and arms, it helps take up about a quarter of the recoil energy.I really like thumbhole stocks. So much easier with hard recoiling guns. Here is pic one style of 50 cal thumbhole stock.Ed.  MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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A question for someone who will not be insulted by it, how does a recoilless rifle get to be recoilless? Serious question, please. Sacred cows make the best burgers. Good Shooting! | |||
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How about in a weightless environment. The movement of the riflestock is more or less from the movement of the bullet. So, does that mean that since the bullet has no "weight", there is no recoil? But at the same token since the rifle itself has no "weight" wouldn't the jet or rocket effect(whatever you want to call it) from the gases escaping from the muzzle cause the rifle to kick harder than in a gravitational environment? How bout that to stir the imagination... | |||
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How come no one has come up with any Einstein equations to prove /disprove all this stuff? I'd be more impressed. So am I to conclude that if you got a bore that's rough enough to drag back on the bullet, that means that the bullet is pushing forward on the barrel hard enough to counteract the force of the gas pushing back on the bolt thingy and if the bullet just barely rolls out the muzzle, then all forces are cancelled out and there is zero recoil. Wow! I'll just throw the old musket down in the saltwater bilge in the speed-boat for a few days, and then I can throw away that lousy muzzle brake. Wayne | |||
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A_C, I made reference to an apparent inferiority complex... I made no reference to you being an ignorant imbecile... I have made no professional assessment in that regard, nor have I offered an opinion. If you quote me, do not extend that to include your own misinterpretations and distortions... ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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8mm--On recoiless rifle gases are bleed off and are directed through passages out the back to counteract recoil. Gixxer--Gun and bullet and exiting gases have mass and they act same in space as here. Walex--You got to the crux of the process. IF THERE IS NO BULLET VELOCITY, THERE IS NO RECOIL.But then you can't shoot anything. OR IF THERE IS NOT ENOUGH VELOCITY RELATIVE TO THE WEIGHT OF THE GUN, THERE IS NO RECOIL- But gun may be a little heavy, like 200 lb 3006. With only 7% of the energy in the powder going to the heat of friction in the case of 06, and less in bigger bores; that shows that the amount of energy or force put to the barrel by bullet, relative to recoil, means that it is a self-correcting process. Ie in comparing friction between say, 3 shallow, smooth, barrel grooves, slow twist; and in second comparison twice as many deep grooves, fast twist , rough finish, the latter will try to slow bullet down, thus making more resistance for the pressure to act against to make thrust on bolt higher, that counteracts the extra force in second instance that the bullet is putting on barrel at same time.. Self regulating. The talk of running a screw through barrel to push out bullet and no recoil occurring is due to the fact that the screw doesn't go fast enough.I you had a self powered fast pitch screw in barrel hung on wires supplying the power, and say barrel was ten lbs, screw was 5 lbs, and screw was moved 1 fps, no recoil.Not fast enough....But if it was moved 4 fps the recoil speed would be 2 fps.. MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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In a "Recoiless" cannon the rear of the shell has openings that let the gas escape to the rear. The breech has tapered openings that act like a rocket nozzle. Most of the propellent energy goes out the rear and recoils forward. I have read that as the nozzle erodes the gun begins to recoil. Don't stand back of one of these. As to the screw jack in the barrel (one has to wonder how people come up with these things), in a free system the center og gravity will remain fixed.. As the screw pushes the bullet the breech will move in the oposite way. In a space craft such "conservation of momentum" is important for such things as pointing the antennas. What you feel as recoil is the Impulse (due to momentum) not energy. Newton never spoke to energy. Recoil is the momentum reaction of everything going forward in the gun. It starts the instant things begin to move. As the bullet reaches the muzzle it's momentum is the muzzle velocity times the bullet mass. At that time the gas momentum is the mass of the gas times 1/2 the muzzle velocity. Finally as the bullet exits the pressure of the gas accelerates it causing additional recoil. Everything contrary to these statements is BS and should be ignored. Good Luck! | |||
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AC, are you saying the absolute pressure on breech face and bullet base are equal?  If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Hey Ed, The part, I must somehow be missing, is how that can happen when I'm pulling the stock into my shoulder with my right hand on the pistolgrip(or through the thumbhole as it may be). And with my left hand pulling the forearm as well. I've no problem understanding that more "static mass" helps soak-up some of the recoil impulse. If I was "pushing" against the pistolgrip with my right hand(which I don't do), I can see where it would allow the weight of the hand and arm, plus the arm muscles doing the pushing to share in a bit of the recoil. But, then I personally wouldn't be able to hit the side of a Barn and the Recoil Pad would no doubt turn my shoulder-area Black and Blue with one shot. What am I missing? --- I guess I should mention I'm thinking about firearms that have more recoil than the typical 300WinMag or 338WinMag. For small calibers like the 308Win class of cartridges, I do hold the rifle with much less "pull" into the shoulder, since they can't even hurt you with a running start(aka off the shoulder). I'm still hoping Sabot is just tied up with work and not had something bad happen to him. | |||
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Hot Core-Even though we are pulling the gun to us with our hand,and with gun tight to shoulder, the recoil impulse is so fast, like 1.4 milliseconds, that the hand in a pistol grip has taken the recoil, just because relative to that quick recoil the mass of the hand and arm being at rest soaks up recoil,at same time shoulder does. Hawkins-That is good explanation of momentum and the impulse of that you feel.And you have Newton's Laws right. And the one that states "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" is the one that some forgot in this discussion. With your formula on momemtum of the bullet and powder, it gives lightly less, compared to one I used above, gun recoil speed for the time bullet is in barrel, but still a large part of the recoil. It is interesting that there are different ways and math to prove that the gun recoils when bullet starts and that the greatest amount of recoil is imparted while bullet is in barrel.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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You guys sure are a lot smarter than me! I am actually glad I got involved with this discussion, it has provided me with a significant amount of useful information. Since this is all about the conservation of momentum, what effets do the weight of individual shooters, and even shooting position play in ACTUAL muzzle velocity? It seems to me that if a 100 pound shooter and a 300 pound shooter both shoot the same rifle from the prone position that the heavier shooter will achieve a higher muzzle velocity. You know M1V1 = M2V2 and all that. Also would a direct blow back have lower muzzle velocity than a locked breech rifle, all other things being equal? rugeruser, I lumped your comment(s) in with those of many others. You did not offer any opinion as to my intellectual level of development. You merely stated I appear to have an inferiority complex. I think if you read the posts made by many others on this thread it will become intuitively obvious as to the reasons for my comments about my intellectual prowess (ref. imbecile). So please calm yourself down. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Hey Ed, Thanks for the insight. I see what you mean. Do you think there is much difference between the recoil absorbed on a Thumbhole shape and a regular grip(aka M700) when using a firm pull with both? | |||
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Hotcore-Yes the pistol or thumbhole grip will pickup quite a bit more than regular grip. Especially in hard kickers you can see the difference as Rob said.Ed. MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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