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"Thanks for the reassurance; obviously caution is the word in reloading. 63.5gr were my starting load, max. Should be approx. 70.5gr) Somchem S365 powder, Woodleigh PPSN bullets, Fed 215 primers & Winchester brass, will do final tests at the range tomorrow. This is the detail on my load I've tested over the weekend. The problem though - excessive pressure (very flat primers) on my starting load(63.5gr as per the Somchem loading manual). My COL was 3.36", .02" more than recommended. Didn't think it could have such an impact. There are so many variables I'm not too sure which one or combination caused the spike in pressure? Any ideas? Did not chrony, for these were my sighters to get on paper with- obviously stopped testing immediately!!! Cheers Johan | ||
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What do you call flat primers? Was extraction 'sticky'? Were there any signs of extractor marks in the brass? Did you mic' the case heads on the rearward edge of the belt? Flattened primers are not a very good indicator of excessive pressure, it usually is accompanied by other visible signs, such as those mentioned above. The COL has very little to do with pressure! You could quite easily load your rounds to a COL that is max in your magazine and pressure will be LOWER, all things being equal. As you increase COL, pressure will drop to a point, then rise again as you near the lands, if you increase it to the point that the bullet is into the lands, pressure will spike and can become dangerous unless the load is adjusted down accordingly. If you can answer the above questions I may have a better understanding of what occurred. I must also say that I have found FED 215 primers to flatten more readily than other brands due to softer cups. Cheers. | |||
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What weight bullet. QL calls that load a max of 44,000psi even with a 250gr bullet. As long at you are not into the lands a .02" longer OAL will reduce pressure not raise it. Like 416Rigby said a flat primer by itself doesn't say much. At the pressure QL is calculating I would expect a primer backout more than excessive pressure. If it a true high pressure situation I would expect tight neck, brass to oong for the chamber or bullet in the lands. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Here are two pics of the flattened primers. The pics actually do not show the extent of the problem. I can assure you that it was quite scary! Forgot to mention. There were no other problems ie. sticky extraction etc. thanks Johan   | |||
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250gr Woodleighs, Brass trimmed to 2.490". I seated a bullet onto the lands and then a further 0.025" to get to the 3.36" COL | |||
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From looking at those pictures, I don't see any excessively high pressure. Like the other guys mentioned, I would be more concerned if there were other signs of pressure like sticky bolt or loose primer pockets. | |||
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So if I read this correct you took the bullet "into" (touching?) the lands then seated the bullet out further by .025"? Jamming the bullet into the lands? Depending on how hard the bullet is you can get one hell of a pressure spike to get the bullet moving. Hard for me to tell from the pictures. To me how the primers changes as the load increases helps more than a single picture. I would back the bullet out of the lands something like .04" or maybe larger and retry. The heck with tryng to maintain 3.34 or longer. Not sure of the pressure but I'd bet serious $$ it isn't in the 44,000 range but it isn't 70,000 either. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Thoes primers still have nice round edges. they look fine to me. With no other indicatons of hi pressure you should be good to go. Most loading manuals have pictures of Flat Primers in the front of the book. If your's don't PM me & I will email/fax you picts of flat primers   | |||
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Believe me that these pics do not show the primer as it is. After looking at the pics I thought that it wasn't bad at all. I will try and upload better pics later. There are no edge to this primer and a slight crater around the pin hole! | |||
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No-no I've seated the bullet deaper into the case. .025" off the lands! The other way and even I could explain the pressure problem!? | |||
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 Hope these show it a little better. I've chambered some of the other reloads last night and blackened the bullets. They are not touching the lands. Checked COL on touching the lands; 3.4". I've also chambered the fired case by hand, it drops out with a slight bump on the butt. So no sticky bolt? What do you guys suggest, back up a grain or 2 and try again or maybe a slower burning powder? Cheers Johan Cheers Johan | |||
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Just a thought -- could be head space - If sized to space off the belt and the belt is a little small it could leave a gap. The case is pushed forward at firing. Firing seals the brass body for a short moment. The primer backs out a little. At full pressure the case stretches to fill to the bolt head and the primer seats back - with no round edges. Might try a partial sizing to head space off the shoulder. | |||
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Johan it is worth taking a look at this thread I started some time back: http://forums.accuratereloadin...2511043/m/4431079701 There are lots of pictures and it is worth reading right to the end as it goes off course a little in the middle but gets back on track again with more photos of my current loads. My "problems" were very similar to yours and turned out not to be problems at all, just that the chamber was perhaps a little long. | |||
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Johan Read through the thread caorach mentioned, and than I'll tell you that I have something over 7000 spent primers (enough that that action is on it's 3rd barrel, and my smith can't find a trace of any action issues) that look just like yours do. | |||
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I had a customer with a 300RUM and his primers looked the same. I test fired it for him and found that mainly two problems (which werent really problems). Gun was not out of headspace but was towards the looser end of headspace for one, and two, the FP was slightly smaller than the FP hole and would allow for some flowback of the primer. The pics you are showing are not looking to be dangerous to me. I would shoot a few more and keep an eye on it, then work up slowly. Looks ok to me. Curtis | |||
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I can see no signs of excessive pressures anywhere on your cases! Those primers look just the way they should with maximum pressures, nice radiused edges and not filling the entire primer pocket. The best indicator of excessive pressure is NOT the primer appearance but the case head itself, shiny raised spots where the brass has flown into the recesses of the bolt face, loose primer pockets and where the other signs are visible, sometimes a cratered primer, but this is not always a reliable indicator of excessive pressures either! I also looked through "caorach's" thread and the final shots of those primers are low pressure, not what you'd even get with a 5% reduction from max loads. I forgot to ask earlier, are they once fired or have they been fired previously and FL sized? | |||
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Just for reference 416RigbyHunter those last pictures are loaded with the highest maximum load I could find printed in a manual for a 150 grain bullet. (308 Win, Speer manual) I'm very new to reloading but this really does highlight that different rifles do different things with very similar loads. I was loading with 44.5 grains of RL15 as it was near max in the Sierra manual and they were suggesting a MV in the region of 2800fps. Looking at the trajectory I would doubt if the 44.5 grains was giving me 2400fps and this was below what was deer legal here so I had to work up. I don't have a chrono but will try to borrow one to see what MV I'm seeing with the 49 grain load. Of course the factory ammo continues to flatten the primers as shown but my 49 grain reloads only result in a very small change in the primer shape. Most remarkable, and a great learning experience. | |||
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Those primers don't look like something to angst over. As posted, the primer in and of itself is a poor sign for pressure. If you were firing virgin brass, that could account for some primer flattening as the primer is pushed from it's seat and then seated back as the case expands to chamber size and an over sized firing pin hole can account for the cratering. To my way of thinking, when the primer is almost flat acrost the head and there is extractor marks and some smearing of the legend on the head, then you need to back off. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Winchester M-70s are notorious for leaving a cratered primer or a "ridge" around the firing pin strike.(firing pin hole much larger than the firing pin) If I don't have that ring around the primer I generally don't have enough powder in the case to get the velocity I want. As others have said, if there is no flowing of the case head into the bolt face/marks on the face, sticky bolt lift or difficulty in case removal, you don't have a pressure problem. Also as I believe someone else stated, your chamber may be at the outer end of the headspace limit but if you neck-size or even partial-length resize, this problem usually goes away as long as you use those reloads in that rifle only. It may not be a option for you if you are going to take the rifle on a bear hunt and don't want any issues with chambering a round. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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How much head and/or belt expansion compared to a factory round? Also is this new brass or once or more fired brass? Just a thought. C.G.B. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading .338WM way to much pressure!!!
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