I just acquired a Sako carbine in 30-06, 20" barrel. I have never loaded for the 30-06, and have little experience with short barrels. I want to stay with Speer 180 hot cor for practise and deer, Nosler 180 partition for hunting bigger game.
My goal is to achieve 2700 fps with minimum muzzle blast.
I was considering using H4350. Is such a slow powder still a good choice in the short barrel? or should I use something faster like R15? I also have faster powders on hand, W748 and IMR 3031. Your experiences please.

You seem to be pushing the limit just a tad but if you ignore max suggested loads at 59000 psi.you probably can do it with H4350, H414,or RL19.But why ?

A fella I use to hunt with in Colorado back in the 60s used a Mod. 760, 30-06 with an 18" barrel open sites; a true modern day mountain man. He really was a hunter and always scored bigger than I. He said the rifle was magic and was the best walk around mountain rifle he ever owned. He never reloaded. roger

I would not push the pressure limit just to get 2700 fps, that seemed like a realistic number from my limited research. If all the speed I could safely get was 2600, but with an accurate, low muzzle blast load, that would be OK. Does that change the picture?

I have a Springfield in '06 with a 21" barrel. I use 4350 and I can get 2700 no problem, but, that's with 165 gr bullets.

Actually, for 180 gr., you might find a slower powder than 4350 to be optimal (if you're looking for optimal). Slight differences in barrel length don't influence the powder. It's long since burnt. The powder itself determines how much muzzle flash you'll experience; it's not like a pistol. If your primary consideration is for muzzle flash, you need to ask a question referring to that criterium. Otherwise, RL 19 might be what you're looking for.

Playing around with Quickload, Rel-19 will get you 2700 at 58,800 or just a tad over MAP. Still way under what is safe in your rifle pressure-wise. Your barrel may be faster or slower than average though. Never know until you chrono the load(s). IMR 4350 gets close but falls 50 fps behind Rel-19 at the same pressure.

quote:

Is such a slow powder still a good choice in the short barrel?

use the same powder you would use in a 26" barrel....it matters not!

If I can get 2740 from a 20" .308 Winchester then you certainly should be able to get the .30-06 to do it too!

Use a powder in the burn range of H-4350 or a tad slower.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You seem to be pushing the limit just a tad but if you ignore max suggested loads at 59000 psi.you probably can do it with H4350, H414,or RL19.But why ?

roger

Roger is right.....again.....but there's no reason to not go for the 65,000 PSI range if you have a modern bolt rifle.

Use the rough estimate of about 3,000 PSI per grain of powder added.....and again...work up!

Don't be afraid to compress some powder....it works just fine!

you can eliminate that mess by just using powders like 3031, 4198, RL 10, H 322.. even 4064 and 4895...

Less powder charges will burn quicker in the barrel, than slower powders which need longer barrels to burn completely...

a good test to see how much powder residue is not burning in the barrel is to put on white cloth from an old sheet or t shirt etc, about 10 inches in front of the barrel and then shoot thru it...

you'll see the unburnt powder flecs on the white cotton..

my personal choice would SR 4759, less velocity, but I am not looking at long range work with a short barreled rifle...

In all reallity, a barrel reduction of 2" or even 4" is of no real concern, just use normal slow burning powders that loads in regular barrel lengths prefer. You may lose 100fps-150fps depending on how fast or slow your barrel is. The powder will be consumed in the barrel, and the slower burners (H4350 and slower) will still give you the highest velocity.
Now, muzzle blast is going to be increased no matter what powder you use, the only drawback of a shorter barrel, the loss of velocity won't be noticed by you or the game you're after.
Cheers.
416RigbyHunter.

Maybe I should explain where I am coming from. I have never owned a 30-06, but have shot several different .308's for years. I now own 3 .308 rifles. Sako L579 Forester, Sako 85 Greywolf, and a Brno ZKK601. I have always liked the .308 for accuracy, low recoil, and efficiency.
I have hearing damage from too much shooting without hearing protection. I don't want more hearing damage. But when calling big game or still hunting in the bush I don't wear ear plugs, it just isn't practical. And if I'm shooting a 30-06 I expect a performance boost over the .308. But the 30-06 Sako carbine has a short barrel. The price of my new Sako carbine was just tooo good to pass up - C$900 with a Leupold 4x and Sako mounts and a sling. And it's cute as hell. So I want to have it all - a economical, handy rifle that shoots bullets of 180 grains the same speed as the 165's I shoot out of all my .308's, with no more muzzle blast. Is that feasible?
Will faster powders than H4350 give me what I crave?

Longwalker

I would say that it is probably not feasible.
The shorter barrelse 30-06 with to loads will be louder than a longer barreled 308 IMHO.

I base that on the fact that I have shor and long barreled 308's and 30-06's.

I use a 19 3/4" barreled 308 and a 19 3/4" 375 H&H quite a bit and I do not notice the noise in the field when hunting.

Tests have shown that even with an 18 to 20 inch barrel the proper slower powders usually still give the highest velocities.

However if you do want to cut down on the muzzle blast a slightly faster powder should be quieter. Should have less recoil as well.

I have used a lot of IMR 3031 in the 308 and in the 30-06 for hunting with perfect results.

A few less FPS has never made a difference in any hunting situation I have been in.

Enjoy your short SAKO.

quote:

Originally posted by Longwalker:
...I have hearing damage from too much shooting without hearing protection. I don't want more hearing damage. But when calling big game or still hunting in the bush I don't wear ear plugs, it just isn't practical.

Hey Longwalker, Then you simply bought the wrong rifle. Short barrels just allow the Report to get to your ears better than l-o-n-g barrels. It is the reality of physics.

If you do not want to protect your ears, then you can reduce the size of the Bore and lengthen the barrel. Or, suffer more ear damage.

quote:

... I want to have it all - a economical, handy rifle that shoots bullets of 180 grains the same speed as the 165's I shoot out of all my .308's, with no more muzzle blast. Is that feasible?

Your odds of that happening are the same as obummer missing a chance to dive in front of a camera - ZERO!

quote:

Will faster powders than H4350 give me what I crave?

The problem here is the "Peak Pressure Spike" the faster Powders have to generate in order to get the total Area under the Pressure Curve high enough to move the Bullet at the speed you desire.

By using the faster Powders to reach these velocities, you are over-stressing everything in the rifle and creating a potential SAFETY Hazard. Vapo nailed the correct answer in his first post - whether you like it or not - it is the way Reloading works.

quote:

By Vapo:
use the same powder you would use in a 26" barrel....it matters not!

If I can get 2740 from a 20" .308 Winchester then you certainly should be able to get the .30-06 to do it too!

Use a powder in the burn range of H-4350 or a tad slower.

That is the correct answer and wear hearing protection with that "cute" barrel.

Best of luck to you.

I can sympathize with not wanting to wear plugs when hunting--- BUT---there are hearing protectors made these days that only deaden the sound decibles that are injurious to the ear! Take the time to visit a good audiologist and see what is available before you decide to endanger any more of your precious hearing. Have a great day.

Personally I think NE450#2 and Sea Fire are on the right track. I'd go with the 3031. roger

I am following this thread with interest as I want to achieve pretty much the same thing, only with a 303 Brit. My thinking is toward using a heavier bullet which requires less powder and should therefore produce less muzzle blast but in any case, I will be fitting a mini-suppressor which adds and inch to the length. Which this I can use my normal foam earplugs which I wear sideways. This protects my hearing but still allows me to hear normally. Just a little quieter. (Only the better quality ones work well enough).

Take a look at the fairly new Surefire ear "plugs".

They work real well. They are designed so that you can hear normal conversation noise level, but protect you from gunfire.

Try VV N160.

Thanks for all the suggestions!
303 guy, I was wondering about a heavier bullet too, so yesterday I bought some Winchester 220 grain Silvertip factory loads to try.
ishelohim, I have some VV N160 on hand, and can try it too, why do you think it will be suitable?
Hot core, I do intend to wear hearing protection nearly all the time. I have a set of Browning vented plugs that I find quite comfortable and they do allow me to hear conversation and most environmental sounds while they seem to protect my ears from blasts - I just would like to minimize damage for the very few shots I will take without them. I will look at he Surefire plugs too as NE 450 No 2 suggested.

As was mentioned above...choice of powder is more cartridge related and NOT BARREL LENGTH related. Quickload says that maximum barrel pressure is achieved in the first 2 inches of bullet travel. With powders like 4350 it predicts that you will burn about 1% less powder with a 20" barrel vrs a 24. If it were me and I wanted velocity out of that barrel I'd be looking at using the 150 ttsx or the nosler 150 etips. They will penetrate and kill any non dangerous game you shoot at here in NA.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
As was mentioned above...choice of powder is more cartridge related and NOT BARREL LENGTH related. Quickload says that maximum barrel pressure is achieved in the first 2 inches of bullet travel. With powders like 4350 it predicts that you will burn about 1% less powder with a 20" barrel vrs a 24. If it were me and I wanted velocity out of that barrel I'd be looking at using the 150 ttsx or the nosler 150 etips. They will penetrate and kill any non dangerous game you shoot at here in NA.

Good post Kraky!

I'm not sure what all the "short" barrel fuss is about?
I have a lightweight 30/06 with a 22" barrel that shoots 180 grain Sierra's very well with 56 grains of IMR-4350 and velocity is at 2750 fps. Doesn't seem to have any more muzzle blast than anybody elses 30/06. That same load in a 20" barrel would have an insignificant difference, don't over think this just load it and shoot it!

Power choice should be the same as with long barrels. You'll get the best performance using the slowest powder that will just get you to your desired MAX PSI and just fill the case to the brim. Powder compression by the bullet has been entirely safe in my experience. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Longwalker:
...Hot core, I do intend to wear hearing protection nearly all the time. I have a set of Browning vented plugs that I find quite comfortable and they do allow me to hear conversation and most environmental sounds while they seem to protect my ears from blasts - I just would like to minimize damage for the very few shots I will take without them. I will look at he Surefire plugs too as NE 450 No 2 suggested.

Hey Longwalker, Good for you about intending to wear the Hearing Protection.

I worked around LOUD noises when I was fairly young. Always wore ear muffs then and never had a bit of "ringing" in my ears. Didn't go to places where the music was too loud either. All was well.

Shot long barrel shotguns for a couple of decades which I feel sure had to hurt my hearing some, but still never had ringing.

Shot long barrel Mags while Deer Hunting at long distances, no ear plugs, no apparent problems that I could detect. But I imagine it was creating a special kind of "Cumulative Ear Fatigue".

Shot a 20" 350RemMag two times without hearing protection in the middle of an open field, no reflected sound from close-by trees - ears have been ringing ever since.

I have Sonic Ear Valves chained to the Trigger Guard on the 350RemMag. Before a Cartridge goes in the Chamber, the Plugs go into my ears. They allow me to hear normal conversation and block the High Pressure Sounds.
-----

Speaking from first-hand experience, I'd strongly encourage you - and ALL the rest of you folks - to ALWAYS use Hearing Protection with any short barrel rifle. Plus, the Larger the Bore, the LOUDER it gets. A 20" 30-06 would hurt my ears.
-----

On the positive side, my ears are still good enough to hear a Squirrel or Deer moving through the woods. I am REALLY greatful for that.

Best of luck to all you folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

On the positive side, my ears are still good enough to hear a Squirrel or Deer moving through the woods. I am REALLY greatful for that..

That's why I try to get a hunting partner like you close at hand. 8 years of ATA with no ear plugs. Say what? roger

Hot core, your story is a typical history of hearing damage for most of us. Your two shots with the .350 was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Hearing damage is cumulative, and irreversible. We mostly don't know it is happening until it is too late. I have to be in exceptional circumstances to not wear my plugs, but sometimes I choose not to. My dad was mostly deaf, it is not a fun condition.

quote:

I worked around LOUD noises when I was fairly young. Always wore ear muffs then and never had a bit of "ringing" in my ears. Didn't go to places where the music was too loud either.

That would be me too! But I wore earplugs for a 22LR high-velocity! (Now I only shoot subsonics with a 'silencer'). I am actually quite anal about hearing protection. Short barrels do two things - they are louder and are closer to the ear! But so handy to carry around in the bush!

quote:

Originally posted by Longwalker:
I just acquired a Sako carbine in 30-06, 20" barrel. I have never loaded for the 30-06, and have little experience with short barrels. I want to stay with Speer 180 hot cor for practise and deer, Nosler 180 partition for hunting bigger game.
My goal is to achieve 2700 fps with minimum muzzle blast.
I was considering using H4350. Is such a slow powder still a good choice in the short barrel? or should I use something faster like R15? I also have faster powders on hand, W748 and IMR 3031. Your experiences please.

The powder that gives maximum performance in a long barrel will also do the same in a short one. The idea that faster powders are better in a short barrel is a myth.

quote:

Originally posted by Longwalker:
...Your two shots with the .350 was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Hearing damage is cumulative, and irreversible. ... My dad was mostly deaf, it is not a fun condition.

Agree and Agree.

Right now all my remaining older family members are at the stage where you have to repeat what you say once or maybe twice. Slow and louder than normal is what it takes for them to hear.

It is definitely something to be avoided if at all possible.
-----

Hey Bartsche, Maybe your hearing has degraded because of those really strange Cartridges you shoot. Woops... nah, probably a strange noise Harmonic off the "incorrect" Scope mounting.

quote:

The powder that gives maximum performance in a long barrel will also do the same in a short one. The idea that faster powders are better in a short barrel is a myth.

While I accept this statement, I also think there is something to be said for the selection of powders for a shorter barrel in so far as muzzle blast intensity is concerned. I'm not sure it would be a deciding factor but I would be interested in what folks have found.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

The powder that gives maximum performance in a long barrel will also do the same in a short one. The idea that faster powders are better in a short barrel is a myth.

While I accept this statement, I also think there is something to be said for the selection of powders for a shorter barrel in so far as muzzle blast intensity is concerned. I'm not sure it would be a deciding factor but I would be interested in what folks have found.

303Guy

Your quote, and your statement are both true.

Think of it like this.. Your car might be a little bit faster if the exaust came right out of the Headers..

But it will be much more plesant to drive if the exaust goes through the muffler.

Reduce the velocity, and use a little faster burning powder and you may be suprised.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
... I also think there is something to be said for the selection of powders for a shorter barrel in so far as muzzle blast intensity is concerned. ...

Hey 303Guy, That is true - if you are only trying to reduce muzzle blast. Less Powder will generate less noise in the same length barrel. And the Faster Powders do use less grains than the Slower Powders in the 30-06.

The problem is the Fast Powders can't make a Bullet move as quickly(in the 30-06) as will the Slower Powders at Safe Pressures.
-----

I've never had a 20" 30-06, so I do not know from experience if the 2700fps with a 180gr Bullet that Longwalker desires is possible or not. The sticker is the 30-06 has always been held back a bit in Pressure. This has been interpereted by many folks that it is OK to load the 30-06 with a bit more Powder(getting more Velocity) than what is shown in most Manuals.

Looking in Hodgdon #26, there are a few 180gr Loads shown that are slightly above 2700fps. All are done with the Slower Powders, in a 26" barrel, and are all below 50K CUP.

If Longwalker has a Fast Barrel, he might get close to 2700fps and still be at a Safe Pressure with the Slower Powders. However, some of it depends on the specific Cases he uses. They may or may not be able to take more Pressure and give acceptable Case Life(aka Pressure too High).

I doubt he can do 2700fps and a 180gr Bullet with the Faster Powders - Safely - in the 20" barrel. But he can always try it with different Powders and see what happens. As usual, the key is to keep an eye on CHE and STOP the moment it gets too high, regardless of what the Velocity happens to be.

I hate to be the one to ask, but why do you need 2700 fps with a 180 grain bullet? Just what are you shooting at that needs that extra 200 fps? 2600 with 4895, still dead.

Hey Longwalker, I had a bit of extra time on my hands today and flipped through a couple of Manuals. When Speer went from #11 to #12 they "Upped" the amount of IMR-4064 with a 180gr Bullet in a 30-06. And darned if they don't have it going over 2700fps in a 22" barrel.

As a real nice side benefit, the IMR-4064 Load uses a bit less Powder than the Powders I've always used in a 30-06, so that would indeed help a bit with the strength of the Report.

Soooo..., all the speculating and guessing I was doing could be Full-of-Beans.

quote:

Originally posted by Moorepower:
I hate to be the one to ask, but why do you need 2700 fps with a 180 grain bullet? Just what are you shooting at that needs that extra 200 fps? 2600 with 4895, still dead.

This is a good and realistic question.....and there are several reasons....because we can!..... and because we want the maximum safe range we can have.....and because we have a .30-06 and not a .30-30 or a .300 Savage.....

Again.....a fair question to be sure.....but it's just the nature of the beast!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Longwalker, I had a bit of extra time on my hands today and flipped through a couple of Manuals. When Speer went from #11 to #12 they "Upped" the amount of IMR-4064 with a 180gr Bullet in a 30-06. And darned if they don't have it going over 2700fps in a 22" barrel.

One can also push it to 2,800 FPS in a 22" barrel as well....but one is probably looking at .270 Win pressures and not .30-06 pressures. I have no trouble pushing my M-70 22" featherweight .30-06 with 180s to 2,800 but use a slightly slower powder.....RL-22 and do some compacting.

quote:

... it's just the nature of the beast!

That was well put and actualy answers a lot of questions! Because we can and because we want to!

quote:

....but one is probably looking at .270 Win pressures and not .30-06 pressures.

Is that a problem? (Or does it just negate the need for 'magnums'?)

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
...I have no trouble pushing my M-70 22" featherweight .30-06 with 180s to 2,800 but use a slightly slower powder.....RL-22 and do some compacting.

Hey Vapo, I was talking to a Califoney buddy last night about this thread. He said he had purchased a 30-06 M70 back in the `50s and used it until the `80s with 180gr Bullets and a good bit of H4350. Said he could not have been more pleased and it Killed everything he ever shot at with it, nearly always 1-shot.

Then the `80s roll around and he buys a chronograph. When he ran his rip-snortin' 30-06 across it, he was just above 2400fps. Of course that allowed me to heap bunches of "praise" on his M70.

Went through all the "what could be wrong" scenarios and still the same. Yet it had Killed so well.

Now he was devistated and said he didn't know what to do. Finally went to the RL-22 you mentioned and the Velocity came right on up. In his rifle, the chamber was such that if he compressed the RL-22 too much, the Case Shoulder would expand enough to prevent chambering. So, he pulled-down, resized, reduced the Load a bit and was still nipping at 2800fps. He did not mention Case Life and I didn't think to ask about it.

He has always had good luck with the RL Powders and has never experienced the erratic performance from them that I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Vapo, I was talking to a Califoney buddy last night about this thread. He said he had purchased a 30-06 M70 back in the `50s and used it until the `80s with 180gr Bullets and a good bit of H4350. Said he could not have been more pleased and it Killed everything he ever shot at with it, nearly always 1-shot.

Then the `80s roll around and he buys a chronograph. When he ran his rip-snortin' 30-06 across it, he was just above 2400fps.

There can be no denying that ignorance is bliss.

That same guy, had he bought a .300 Magnum prior to chronographing his load, would be the worlds greatest proponent of the magnums!

While I know you're not too high on chronys, they do separate fact from fiction.....and I like that!

As to whether 2800 is really better than 2400....well that's for another campfire!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Vapo, I was talking to a Califoney buddy last night about this thread. He said he had purchased a 30-06 M70 back in the `50s and used it until the `80s with 180gr Bullets and a good bit of H4350. Said he could not have been more pleased and it Killed everything he ever shot at with it, nearly always 1-shot.

Then the `80s roll around and he buys a chronograph. When he ran his rip-snortin' 30-06 across it, he was just above 2400fps.

There can be no denying that ignorance is bliss.

That same guy, had he bought a .300 Magnum prior to chronographing his load, would be the worlds greatest proponent of the magnums!

While I know you're not too high on chronys, they do separate fact from fiction.....and I like that!

As to whether 2800 is really better than 2400....well that's for another campfire!

Well this is embarrasing, you gentlemen are being unkind to the poor chap hot-core mentions

My sudden altruism is due to the fact that the load I use in my 30.06 is 51.3gr of h4895, which I understand to be a relatively fast powder for the 06, under a 150 gr speer boat-tail spitzer.

The book claims about 3000 fps for the load out of a 24" barrel on saturday I chrono'ed it at 2800 fps with an es of 40fps and a sd of 12. not bad but I was expecting faster.

The tikka has a 22 1/2" barrel and the temperature was about ~15 degrees centigrade.

Is this sort of reduction from book loads normal or am I better off witha slower powder to achieve 3000fps if, I hasten to add, that was indeed the goal I was seeking?

I am intending to move up to 165 grainers for genral use and to load up a few 200 grainers for the heavy stuff and so wonder if I should stick with h4895 or go a bit slower.

I fully take on board the point of th hot-core's anecdote about his friends 06 turning out to "only" be doing 2400fps but killing just fine anyway but would like as much speed, maintaining accuracy of course, as possible as the same load will be used for range work out to 1000 yards.

Thanks in advance,

GH