How about some brave souls post some groups and we can critique the gun or shooter. Is it the gun,the ammo, or just the shooter?

Nice--now does anyone have some 5 shot factory load targets? It seems everyone has what I call a back pocket group that they wear out from showing it to everybody. Its normally a 3 shoter. But when that guy can show me 10,20 or 30 then you know he is the "real deal".

Steve, nice groups, especially since some of those rifle groups are at 200 yard! Is the Ruger 77V in .22-250 the same rifle for the first and second pic? Just a different load?

At the 22RF range the other day, the range officer set the targets up at 100m on a gusty windy day. (His excuse was he wanted to try and zero his 400/458 wizzbanger.)

So as I whinged for the next hour, with shots all over the place, the usual wag suggested I was the problem.
Not so I reckoned, because if I can't shoot I've sure waisted a lot of time and money over the last 50+ shooten years.
(Useless pricks didn't even have one wind flag up, and they charge to get in.)
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Nice--now does anyone have some 5 shot factory load targets? It seems everyone has what I call a back pocket group that they wear out from showing it to everybody. Its normally a 3 shoter. But when that guy can show me 10,20 or 30 then you know he is the "real deal".

OK, Twenty with a 32-40 Ballard at 100 yrds.

The group from your Ruger 77 25-06 caught my attention. you have two distinct groups side by side. Shooter error? Cheek pressure? Not getting placed back in the bags the same each shot? Bag bind?
Also, your Ruger 77 6mm another attention getter. When working up loads vertical like you have is often encountered. At this point do you try and add a tad more powder to get rid of your vertical.
It fascinates me that we only have two shooters with enough hanging down things to post their targets.
The posters here on accurate reloading all seem to have MOA guns so where are their targets?

Here's a couple 3 shot groups from my 300 WSM Browning. I usually don't shoot 5 shot groups with this rifle, it take way too long to cool between groups, and more than 3 shot groups heat it up too much.





The load is 71.0 H-4831 SC, wlr, 165 interbond, Norma cases, at 100 yds. These 2 groups were fired on 2 different days, 2 days apart.

DISCLAIMER; the 71.0 grain load is 1.5 over max from a handwritten load sheet sent me by Hornady upon request, when there was little or no load info yet,(mid 2001).

This turned out to be my hunting load for Wi. whitetails. Go figure!?

These are more like it--reality at last. Why do you think your group shifted to the right 1/4"?
Time of day? Cloudy/Sun? Changing wind condition?
The top hole in both targets--was this your first shot? Did you clean your rifle between these two groups?

Mike:
You do what I like to do. At what point did you get the seperate group off to the left? Did your group progress to this point or was it a procedural error you kept repeating during the process? One of the reasons I like to shoot groups like yours is I can normally pick up shooting errors rather quickly.

Wow OH, that was 2 years ago! I guess my future targets should include notes for answers to to your questions. No I don't clean between groups. I'm not anal about cleaning at all. In fact this rifle seems to shoot better fouled. It will maintain groups up to 50 rounds or so. I forgot to mention the velocity average over 15 shots was 3043.6 fps at 15 ft.

Want more? Here's some I just shot to try to use some WC 860 in the 300 WSM. i't way too slow even at 110% load density. Then a group shot with r-19, both using the 220 S matchking. The for what it's worth department!



Then the real McCoy .832 5 shot group at 2686 fps! Who says the 300 WSM won't do well with a heavier bullet?? Oh 100 yds for both, the weather was 70's, low humidity, little wind. No cleaning before or during group shooting.

Grizz:
Back up to your 300 browning groups. From shooting session to shooting session is it common for you to see the 1/2" shift in vertical and horizontal that you see on these two targets?
Now for the R-19 group. Things are beginning to look promising here. So how many groups or outings before you decide it is a keeper generally? Will you try and further tweek with seating depth or primer change? Are you perhaps now curious what R-22 would do?

Grizz:
What is your spin on the three blue targets? Three shots to the left and two on the right. This is repeated on all three targets in varying degrees. Can these be attributed to load,gun,or shooter? Over the years I have shot many groups just like these and am sure many others have also during load development.

Ricciardelli:
What's with the one smart ass bullet that always seems to jump out of the group and spoils things. I often find this to be my last shot of the group. I start looking at what a tight little hole I've got and wind up laying one outside the hole. Any advice on getting over this affliction?

Wanted to show off the target before it is complete build excitement and a loss of focus. Just like the golfer that is even par after seventeen and gets a double bogey on the 18th.
Loss of focus.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Mike:
You do what I like to do. At what point did you get the seperate group off to the left? Did your group progress to this point or was it a procedural error you kept repeating during the process? One of the reasons I like to shoot groups like yours is I can normally pick up shooting errors rather quickly.

If I remember correctly the hole on the left was the first three and they were also a different weight. These are lubricated cast lead bullets and I was shooting up the last ones of the season, fired one fouler off target then twenty for fun. Normally I shoot ten-shot groups, that’s what the rifle was made for, punching holes in paper.

And a fine paper puncher it is and you yourself repeat pretty darn well yourself.

Mike:
Tell us about your .32-40 Were you using iron sights with a peep or glass? The 190ish numbers on the target would be your bullet weight? You sorted your bullets by weight? You were using 12 grains of what? Have you shot any black powder with any luck?

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Mike:
Tell us about your .32-40 Were you using iron sights with a peep or glass? The 190ish numbers on the target would be your bullet weight? You sorted your bullets by weight? You were using 12 grains of what? Have you shot any black powder with any luck?

Scope was a 20X Unertl, all bullets weighed and segregated. Normally from a casting session I’ll end up three piles of bullets + - 0.1gr, these were 190.8, 190.9 and 199.0 had a few of each left over so shot them all into one group. I have used black powder in one Schuetzen rifle I have with a false-muzzle, good shooting but a lot of work. 12.0 grains of AA No. 9, Remington large-pistol primer, bullet seated 1/16†in front of case and no wad. re-de prime the same case for every shot.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Grizz:
Back up to your 300 browning groups. From shooting session to shooting session is it common for you to see the 1/2" shift in vertical and horizontal that you see on these two targets?
Now for the R-19 group. Things are beginning to look promising here. So how many groups or outings before you decide it is a keeper generally? Will you try and further tweek with seating depth or primer change? Are you perhaps now curious what R-22 would do?

OH it had to be the wind that caused the slight shift in that group.

As for the R-19 group, you have to understand that those targets are 90 degrees off orientation. I never bothered to fix that, I'll see if I can rotate them. I'd like to expeeriment some more on that load, it could be a bit tighter. If I could get a group that tight or maybe a little better in three loading/range sessions I'd consider it a keeper. You've given me some ideas about group analyzing, that I'll have to incorporate in my shooting sessions. Like keeping track of #1 -2 and so forth, where they hit the target, and sub-groups whithin the main group.

R-22 would probably not do much for that rifle. It's 23 inch bbl. probably wouldn't burn it all, may even produce less velocity. Not that it's neccessary to go that fast, but the main reason to do that was to prove a 300 WSM, in a factory short bbl., could push a 220 grain bullet to that kind of speed. Also I shoot at 600 yds occasionally, on a windy day, those would be the cats meow.

Mike:
A little surprised at how much .1 grain difference in bullet weight shifted your group. Would you say that a .1 grain bullet weight difference has a greater effect on your target than a .1 grain powder change? Maybe I need to pay a little more attention to my bullet weights?
Also, bullet seated 1/16" in front of the case mouth. Where would this be in relation to the lands of the rifle? And finally how many reloadings are you getting from a single case with your method?

Can I get in on this?

CZ550 Varmint 200 yards groups.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Mike:
A little surprised at how much .1 grain difference in bullet weight shifted your group. Would you say that a .1 grain bullet weight difference has a greater effect on your target than a .1 grain powder change? Maybe I need to pay a little more attention to my bullet weights?
Also, bullet seated 1/16" in front of the case mouth. Where would this be in relation to the lands of the rifle? And finally how many reloadings are you getting from a single case with your method?

In my view the shift in group was to the bottom, if the three bullets had not been shot the group size would have been the same. Does .1 of a grain in bullet weight make that much difference, maybe not but because I have to weigh them all anyway why not segregate. The name of this game is keeping everything the same.

“Also, bullet seated 1/16" in front of the case mouth. Where would this be in relation to the lands of the rifle?†I’m not sure I understand your question, the bullet is in front of the case, the rifling has engraved the bullet to the base. Also it’s not “my method†using one case in a Schuetzen rifle has been around for more than 100-years. Somewhere around 1000-1300 shots the primer pocket wears out.

I just want to post a 20-shot group, a schuetzen rifle is a bit out in left field for most folks and IMO there is not much to analyze about this load or rifle. I have spent a good part of the summer shooting this rifle and the biggest problem is the operator’s inability to judge the wind.

Mike: Sure I understand that you didn't invent this procedure. Did everyone hear what Mike said 1000 shots per case. Now I like the sound of that. So, are you running the case through a pair of nut crackers after each firing?
You stated you seated 1/16" in fron of the case mouth. So does this mean you have a bunch of free bore? How much bullet jump before your cast bullet gets into the lands of the barrel?
BILL: Are we looking at 3 or 5 shot groups? If they are three shot groups then take those targets back out to the range and drill at least two more holes into them and come back here and show them to us.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:BILL: Are we looking at 3 or 5 shot groups? If they are three shot groups then take those targets back out to the range and drill at least two more holes into them and come back here and show them to us.

That was rude! Three shot groups are just fine for many rifles such as those used for hunting. Might I respectfully suggest that it may be time for you to post some of your targets?

Mike I do not have a scanner. If I told you that your 32-40 group didn't have enough holes in it you would probably say OK and could do such a ridiculous feat. This was a joke. It would however be very interesting to try from week to week using the same target for a few weeks to see what it looked like.

Five shot groups

Retired:
That #4 sure is one hole. I have called the CSI crime lab and they want you to send it in to check for powder burns. So are you going to trade this one off and get something else to take up your time?

Good try one-holer. You wanted people to show off something less than their best ever group on the internet? You now know how Diogenes must have felt.

I'm still learning to shoot this one. Only have about 100 rounds down the barrel and haven't quite figured out how to hold it. The first group was from a clean barrel, the last group was shots 16-20.

I had the rifle built for 100 & 200 score competition. But before it was finished I got into Rimfire benchrest. Now, there's an interesting game.

Out of 20 rounds (I load in 20 round batches), I can shoot six 3 shot groups and one 5 shot group. It will shoot those 5 shot group OK, but I like to shoot as many groups as I can.

Here's an interesting group to me at least. At 200 yards with a stiff wind blowing from left to right. i fired 1 sighter which was about 8 inches off the target.

then using "Kentucky windage" I fired 2 more. those were touching. then without thinking about the group I was making, I decided to hit the dot. Oh well.

Haven't figured out how to post a pic, but my avatar is a 3 shot group at 100 yards with a .221 Fireball. Got a nice target with a 3 shot group and a 5 shot group with my .204 Ruger in 32 & 40 grain factory ammo. Someone tell me how to post a pic and I'll put that one up

Bill, Those are some impressive groups w/ that CZ. What Cart?

I looked at some CZs the other day but, I wasn't too impressed w/ the feel of their Sporter Hunting Rifles However, Those Rimfires (452 Maybe?) were quite nice. Haven't seen one of the CZ Varmints yet.

Reloader

Bill:
And you hit the dot. I love to hit the range when the wind is howling out. I find it interesting to watch where and how far my groups go in a hard push and then once again during a let off, all the while aiming at the bullseye. Man reality sure dosen't seem to come anywhere close to all those fancy computer programs. Mcinnis: Maybe these are everyones worst targets--pretty scary stuff isn't it?

Mike Petrov:
If you are still out there I am still interested in hearing back about your seating depth. Any Idea of how much free bore this is giving you? Also, do you have any more "old time paper puncher" guns that you shoot? Could you share any of those groups.
From the looks at your old timer group we (the gun industry) really haven't progressed all that far since the good old days.

OK. Three shots at 100 yards with a .50 cal. sidelock ML with Bill Large 1/72" twist barrel, 370 grain Maxi-Ball, 140 grains of GOEX ClearShot FFFg, and a Win. 209 ML "shotgun" primer in a Mag Spark nipple....



Five @ 100 yards 6mm/284 w/ 26" Douglas Premium grade barrel, 100 grain Sierra sptizer, 53.5 grains H4831, Sullivan Arms Co. "SACMAG" .210" primer, WW cases. MV 3350 FPS.....

quote:

Mike Petrov:
If you are still out there I am still interested in hearing back about your seating depth. Any Idea of how much free bore this is giving you? Also, do you have any more "old time paper puncher" guns that you shoot? Could you share any of those groups.
From the looks at your old timer group we (the gun industry) really haven't progressed all that far since the good old days.

There is no free bore, these rifles normally use a two-diameter tapered bullet that is seated into the rifling in front of the case. If you seat a bullet than push it back out with a ramrod the bullet will have the rifling engraved on it all the way to the base. Remember this was a twenty shot group, I have shot five-shot 100 yard groups in the .2’s, 3’s and 4’s and ten shot 100 yards under .5 and even managed a 10 shot one at 200 under 1â€.

“From the looks at your old timer group we (the gun industry) really haven't progressed all that far since the good old days.†You need to compare apples to apples so to speak and these rifles nowadays are the bench-rest ones that do put them all in one hole.

Mike:
Great stuff. My thoughts on three shot groups vs. 5,10 or even groups like the one you were kind enough to post.
Your multiple shot group gives you a pretty good indication of several things working in combination.
The load quality,shooters ability/errors, gun-is it up to the task, and finally the influence of the conditions that the group was shot under.
So now take any given 3 shot group and tell me what are we really looking at? I can tell be looking at your group without a doubt that you,your gun,and load have your stuff packed into a nice tight little ball. You look at a 3 shot group--who knows?

Reloader, my CZ is a .308 shooting 168 grain Noslers using XMR 4064 powder I would have to look at my loading data to tell yo how many grain.

I think a three shot group will tell you a lot and are especially helpful when shooting large rifles or shooting bullets that cost a dollar or more each. When I worked up my loads and broke-in the barrel of my .400 Whelen I was afraid that shooting more than three I would develop a flinch. I found that the first shot out of a cold and clean barrel would go right were the crosswire was pointed. The rest followed real close behind it and today I have a lot of confidence in this rifle. If the powder, bullet selection or bullet depth was wrong three told the story right away.
You could call this a six shot group, I fired three at 100 yards then fired three at 200 yards.