My .416 is in danger of becoming a gun safe queen. It's getting harder and harder for me to find a reason to get belted by the thing. I've been toying with the idea of reduced loads and happened across the Hawk 300 grainer. Only trouble is I don't really know where to start with loads. The only 300 grain non-cast data I'm aware of is from Barnes, and they start their loads at 2900 FPS, which kind of defeats my purpose.

I have an email in to Hawk, but I'm wondering if anyone has any other info? I'm looking for low velocities and light bullets, and I'd rather not monkey around with cast bullets in this rifle.

Hey Noel, I don't load for the Rigby, my .40 flavor is a .404jeffery. Saeed has some data on the 335grTBBC, close enough:
http://www.accuratereloading.com/416rigby.html
A note about the Hawk bullets. I bought some 300gr as plinkers for my .404. The shoot ok, but I did have one slip it's jacket on exiting the muzzle. I know because a sizeable piece of the jacket, if not the whole thing, cut half of my skyscreen shade away. The bullets are open on both ends so sometimes the soft copper jacket can "stick" going down the bore & the heavier lead core just keeps going. You may want to stick to a conventional bullet like the Speer 350gr or Woodleigh 340gr, @ 2200fps it would be "pleasent" to shoot.

quote:

A note about the Hawk bullets. I bought some 300gr as plinkers for my .404. The shoot ok, but I did have one slip it's jacket on exiting the muzzle. I know because a sizeable piece of the jacket, if not the whole thing, cut half of my skyscreen shade away. The bullets are open on both ends so sometimes the soft copper jacket can "stick" going down the bore & the heavier lead core just keeps going.

At least one gun has been blown up by these bullets. Don't use them.

Cast bullets can be driven up to 2200 fps with ease from your rifle. The ones with flat meplats will do a good job on game within their range and they won't kick all that much.

Noel,

i shoot the 300g Hawk,0.035" in my Rigby using 54g xmp5744, OAL=3.505. Accurate has load data for 350g RCBS lead of 49.5 to 55g for OAL=3.48".

14 shot average velocity was 2155fps with 57fps standard deviation and average 3 shot group size of 0.7" at 60 yards.

rgds,

steve

I believe a good flatnosed cast bullet in 300 to 400 grain weight at 1500 to 2000 FPS would be the cat's meow for anything in North America, and could be plesant to shoot also, compared to .416 full-charge loads. If made of the proper alloy and used with a good lube like LBT Blue, there should be NO LEADING either.

Steve, that sounds like what I'm looking for. Thanks.

As for the lead bullets, I've come darn close to going that route several times, but for "various irrational but otherwise valid" reasons I would prefer to stick with copper jackets, if possible. (I'm not actually planning on hunting with reduced loads, as a few shots with full power are fine. It's the extended sessions at the range I'm thinking about.)

As for the story of the gun blown up with Hawks, I'd love to hear the details.

Noel, I could see this happening based on my single exp. If the jacket sticks in the bbl. & you fire another round after, well you can imagine the results. I was lucky & the jacket exited. The Speer 350gr would be an econcomical plinker @ 2000fps.

load hornady 400s at 1750 fps... we can work up a load for you on that.. that puts it in 45/70 range.

what kinda 416 rigby you got?

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
At least one gun has been blown up by these bullets. Don't use them.

show me a SINGLE court document that proves this?


You can't.. Andy is still in business, and the barnes original (an identically built bullet) is still being sold...

Perhaps you mean "at least one gun has blown up WHILE using them." and then list the case, powder, primer, gun, etc etc etc

in fact, people are still swagging 22 jackets onto lead cores to make 308 bullets, and you don't hear of them blowing up...

Myself, I dislike the hawk bullet as it has none of the accurate of a BT and all of the frangibility

but reloaded blow up their guns with alarming regularity and blaime SOMETHING

Jeffe, I'd be pretty pleased with 400/1750, but wouldn't even know where to begin. I have no experience loading down the big bores.

Oh, and the gun is a Ruger.

Noel,
what powders do you normally use in reloading?
I can plug a couple in quickload, if you would like

jeffe

Woodleigh also make a 340 gr protected point bullet.

Don't sell your .416 you may regret it heaps.

I once sold a sako fiberclass 7mm rem mag.......the nice ones with the mcmillnan stocks

No, I would never sell it. Even if I never shoot it again, it's still got a nice piece of wood, and I can still prop in in the corner when I'm reading Ruark.

Jeffe, I prefer the Reloader series of powders, and this rifle likes RL19 the best. I have everything from 7 to 25 on the bench at the moment, along with various 4350s and others. If you are willing to go to this trouble for me, simply check whatever powder is convenient and I'll go buy it, if I don't have it.

Thanks again!

this is NOT loading data, just a quickload prediction.

Quickload says (as you asked) rl 25
a 75% loading density (you MUST use a filler) of 76 grains is about 1750fps with a hornady 400.

If it where me, I would slip a foam ear plug in the case over the powder and start somewhere below that. dacron works, but it's inconsistent.

quickload also says that about 32-35 ft/lbs of recoil... a gentl caress

you MUST use a filler... or you will get hang fires/delayed ignition/problems

i would use federal 215 primers

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
At least one gun has been blown up by these bullets. Don't use them.

show me a SINGLE court document that proves this?


You can't.. Andy is still in business, and the barnes original (an identically built bullet) is still being sold...

Perhaps you mean "at least one gun has blown up WHILE using them." and then list the case, powder, primer, gun, etc etc etc

in fact, people are still swagging 22 jackets onto lead cores to make 308 bullets, and you don't hear of them blowing up...

Myself, I dislike the hawk bullet as it has none of the accurate of a BT and all of the frangibility

but reloaded blow up their guns with alarming regularity and blaime SOMETHING

As I remember Todd Bartells situation a Hawk bullet was fired in a rifle and the jacket stuck in the bore. On the next shot the rifle blew up. Now either a jacket stuck in the bore or not.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck that's close enough for me to call it a duck.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
this is NOT loading data, just a quickload prediction.

Quickload says (as you asked) rl 25
a 75% loading density (you MUST use a filler) of 76 grains is about 1750fps with a hornady 400.

If it where me, I would slip a foam ear plug in the case over the powder and start somewhere below that. dacron works, but it's inconsistent.

quickload also says that about 32-35 ft/lbs of recoil... a gentl caress

you MUST use a filler... or you will get hang fires/delayed ignition/problems

i would use federal 215 primers

jeffe

Don't use a reduced load with a slow burning powder filler or not. There is a chance of SSE (explosion) and in any case the slow burning powder will not burn well.

For reduced loads use a fast burning, easy to ignite powder. I suggest 4759. Of the RL's RL 7 or RL 10 would be good.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Don't use a reduced load with a slow burning powder filler or not. There is a chance of SSE (explosion) and in any case the slow burning powder will not burn well.

Tom,
Don't tell the double rifle guys this, please, or they'll NEVER shoot another one.

On Todd's accident... Again, reloaders blow up guns EVERY DAY... that they can acertain it's a hawk bullet is just pure magic to me.. and the millions fired and the 10x of millions of barnes X's fired.

If you read ackley's book, and then o'conner... sse CAN NOT BE RECREATED IN A LAB..

but over charges of the wrong powder certainly can be.

Do I think it happens? yeah,,, i do.... run it down to about 30-40% powder, on a VERY cold day, compact 95% of the powder forward, it COULD spike pressure... COULD...

75% with a filler? Come on, not ONE 577, 600, or 700 nitro round has EVER been at 75% with anything other than black powder or a substitute

jeffe

The Hawk jacket stuck in Bartells barrel. The jacket came off and hit fredj338's screen. Over and over again we read that the jackets come off because there is a big hole in the jacket at the base of a Hawk bullet. That's why the cores get blown out of the jackets. They are a duck.

As to slow burning powders for reduced loads. I am not going to use them or suggest them.

Hawk is the one bullet I refuse to use on game, I have so many of them fail that I just won't have anything to do with them..They are simply and old time bullet with a lot of hype behind them...I lived through the old bullet failure days and don't intend on going through that again...But they should make good plinking bullets, but for that I use Hornadys in my .416s...

jeffeoso, based on the single experience I had, I could see this happening if the jacket stuck in the bore & another round fired behind it. I have fired 135 of the Hawks in 400gr, 350gr & 300gr in my .404. I only had the one incident, but I won't be shooting Hawk's anymore. The cost savings isn't worth it. Woodleighs for practice or my sized down .429/300gr for plinking.

Tom, Ray, Fred

we are actually kind of in agreement
1: unless there is NO other bullet, I will not use hawks on game, either. they explode. The price aint much better than a woodleigh these days, anyway.

2: if a single case was proven, I would be on the bandwagon. However, not a soul on this forum could, 100% of the time, tell the difference in a barnes original and a hawk... not by holding, measuring, or hacksawing appart.

3: that the jacket can and will spit off AFTER it leaves the barrel? HELL YES, i agree this can happen. That the jacket could come off with the LEAST upset? Hell, fellas, i've recover 50 bmg jackets on "THIS" side of 3/4" targets...

Fact of the matter is that a ZILLION bullets, with a "hole in the bottom" are made and shot. The physics of the matter, with ~7900FPS of gas pushing it out, tells me that NO SIGNIFIGANT remant of a jacket can stay in a barrel.

Why do I think it can come off outside but not inside a barrel? P R E S S U R E and SPACE.. there's ZERO space for the jacket, core, and gases to leave anything signifigant behind, as the jacket is IN FRONT of the olgive. this is mechcanically "locked" ON the bullet by the lead core and the bore, with the ass of the bullet, now larger than before firing due to pressure, pushing everything along...

Kinda like a raccoon with his arm through a piece of chicken wire, holding a dime.. unless the environment changes, he neither will let go of the dime nor be able to get his hand through.

If the jacket BEHIND the olgive is a problem, then the speer 1/2 jacket 110gr 308 bullet, being shot from everything from 800 to 3000 fps would blow up guns every day.

... if a gentleman sell a bullet, with a hole ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT, and it exits the barrel, how in the heck can a hawk dump a jacket IN the barrel

jeffe

quote:

how in the heck can a hawk dump a jacket IN the barrel

quote:

... if a gentleman sell a bullet, with a hole ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT, and it exits the barrel, how in the heck can a hawk dump a jacket IN the barrel

The jacket bone rubs on the barrel bone
The gas bone rubs on the core bone

"
Dry Bones


Ezekiel cried, "Dem dry bones!"
Ezekiel cried, "Dem dry bones!"
Ezekiel cried, "Dem dry bones!"
"Oh, hear the word of the Lord."

The foot bone connected to the leg bone,
The leg bone connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone connected to the back bone,
The back bone connected to the neck bone,
The neck bone connected to the head bone,
Oh, hear the word of the Lord!

Dem bones, dem bones gonna walk aroun',
Dem bones, dem bones, gonna walk aroun'
Dem bones, dem bones, gonna walk aroun'
Oh, hear the word of the Lord.

The head bone connected to the neck bone,
The neck bone connected to the back bone,
The back bone connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone connected to the leg bone,
The leg bone connected to the foot bone,
Oh, hear the word of the Lord."

And that's as good a place to leave off this thread as any. Thanks for everyone's help and input, and especially for your time and trouble, Jeffe.

Noel,
PM me for more quickload projections if you want them.

Tom,
neat thing about a pressure cylinder... force applied to ALL surfaces equaly... or, to put it in your reference.. if there's enough gas bone against the core bone to exit, then the jacket bone goes out TOO..

that may be the oddest reply I've ever heard

jeffe

I have used 3 Hawk bullets on game in my Doubles.
In the 9,3x74R the 285 gr .035jkt has performed excellently on deer, wild pigs, baboon and impala.
In my 450/400 3 1/4" the 300 gr .025jkt has killed deer and wild pigs like the Hammer of Thor.
I have killed one wild pig with the 400 gr .035 jkt Hawk [450/400]. I hit him running at the last DRSS hunt. He was SLAMMED to the ground on impact and never moved an inch.
Hawk bullets have given me a higher percentage of drop to the shot kills, more than any other bullet.

Either a 300 gr at @ 2330fps or a 400 gr at 2150 fps should work good in your 416.