Loading for my 6MM Remington, the gun always shoots best the hotter the load gets. My question is – How hot is too hot? Example- Working up to 45 grains of H-414 w/ the 87 grain Vmax in ½ grain increments the gun just shoots better and better. At 45 grains maybe one in out of four shots will have some slight bolt lift stiffness, other than that there are no other pressure signs. At 45.5 grains it even shoots better but I would say it is too hot as three out of five shots have a stiff bolt and I will get a shiny extractor mark some of the faces of the cartridges. So going back to 45 grains the odd slightly stiff bolt (one out of four) but other than that there are no other pressure signs. Primers are not cratered either. Opinions please.

Andy,
According to what I have read, for the brass to begin to make the bolt stiff and make shinny spots you have gone way above where you need to be, like into the 80,000psi range (if my memory is correct). A real high intensity cartridge like 270Win is about 56,000psi. You really need to drop a full grain from that point, and 1.5grs would be better.

If accuracy is the issue, try changin seating depth and primers at this point. If it stays the same, be happy with the groups you have, a rifle in one piece and all your body parts.

The issue is safety. You don't want to be hangin' on to that thing when things let go. Been there, done that. Kudude

My eyes and my rifles mean more to me that a 1/4 moa smaller group or 50 fps more velocity. $0.02

Guys,
I understand where you are coming from. At 44.5 grains- absolutely NO pressure signs-45 grains SLIGHT bolt stiffness 1 out of four shots- 45.5 grains I think we all agree that it is too hot as explained in the original post. Would you stay at 44.5 grains or still go lighter?

work up from 44.5 to 45 in .1gr. increments and see how high you can go w/ not pressure signs. then, say you get to 44.8 and slight signs, back it down to 44.7, assuming there were no signs with that. then play around with the seating depth and primers. if your stock is not free-floated and your action is not bedded, that would help a LOT too.

If it is a hot day and your cartridge has been in the chamber cooking for perhaps two minutes after fast firing 10 shots ( hot barrel)and you fire and get just a noticeable increase in bolt lift; you are over the acceptable limits and should reduce your charge by the already suggested 1 1/2 gr.

If it is fridged and this is your first shot from a cold barrel and you get noticeable hard bolt handle lift and perhaps have a really flat primer , pull the rest of your bullets and start over with a 10% reduction in powder charge.

I humbly suggest that you also try some of the slower burning powders. A number of us have been getting super results from Accurate Data 86 and it would be difficult to over load it in your rifle with the bullet you mention. 4350, 4831 and 3100 might also give you what you're looking for at safer pressure levels.

The extruded powders also allow you more readily to use standard large rifle primers which many attest facilitates greater accuracy. roger

quote:

How hot is too hot?

It's when you notice any stretching of the primer pockets. This becomes obvious when you install primers to reload them. If you notice a larger primer pocket than initially then you should back off at least two grains...... probably more.

This is not to preclude other signs of pressure.....but has become my real acid test of "too much"

When you or someone in the immediate area requires an ambulance.........you're loading too hot.
I can see it now...."this thing just shot better and better til the bolt stuck in my head."

if the bolt gets stuck in your head, try re-assembling the rifle, and back down the suggested grain or grain and a half. That should be fine.

Above 65,000 PSI you begin to see significant evidence of brass "flow" - that is, extraction marks and loosening primer pockets. The more above 65,000 PSI the more obvious the signs become, until at ~75,000-80,000 PSI you'll blow a primer with one firing in a new case.

One of the best ways to detect working PSIs over 65,000 is to use an hand-held priming tool. You can feel the primer going into the pocket, and thus, if it goes in too easily, it's loose. The latest Lyman reloading manual claims that one should get at least 3 reloading before the primer pocket gets too loose to use again - for me that's when I can push the primer back out of the case with ease. If that happens, I throw that case away and reach for a brand new one. I don't worry, because cases are relatively cheap. Also, I only hunt with new cases.

If it were my rifle I'd be looking into using a little slower powder.

What Ackley Improved User said.

If you get no signs at 44.5gr, then that is where you need to stop. Above that, you are in the twilight zone. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
If it were my rifle I'd be looking into using a little slower powder.

Lucky hit it on the head here H414 is not the best powder for bullets in that weight range. I'd be looking a RL19, IMR 4350, or IMR4831 you're likely to find a sweet spot with one of these at much less pressure than your getting now. Your gun and body parts may be the less for wear.

I'd change some feature to make it less pressure.

Just had a second scare myself. Blew a primer out in my .223 55gr/25gr AA2200.

Knew damned well that was the load Iv'e been using. Then read on the jug and it said: max 23.0gr. Busted the ejector for a $40 repair this time.

First time, just pierced the primer hole. Gun was hot from shooting a lot of rapids at p/dogs, on a 105 degree day. Had left the shell in the closed chamber about 15 min while taking a leak.

The powder flakes smoke my contact lens and stung my face and eye's a bunch. Got my attention quick! Case stuck in the chamber too, but, nearly fell out once it cooled. No other markings or damage. Got lucky! Thankful I was wearing contact lense. Bare eyeball I'd had a problem for sure. Safety glasses guys!!

George

I would suggest getting/borrowing a chronograph and work your loads up with that. When you get near "book max" and are in the same velocity zone than there is a big chance you are in the upper limits of preassure.
My 2 cents worth.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
... Busted the ejector for a $40 repair this time.

The powder flakes smoke my contact lens and stung my face and eye's a bunch. ...

Hey George, What kind of rifle is it?

Mmmmm....Bolt stiffness BAD! You should be able to load your cases five or six times (preferably more) before the primer pockets get too loose to keep the primers in place with sufficient friction.....

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
Andy,
According to what I have read, for the brass to begin to make the bolt stiff and make shinny spots you have gone way above where you need to be, like into the 80,000psi range (if my memory is correct). A real high intensity cartridge like 270Win is about 56,000psi.

You really need to drop the powder charge back at least a full 5% from that level!!

Update;

I took the advice of some and tried a different powder. I loaded some 85 Sierra HPBT with Varget. Working up to 39,5 grains and NO pressure signs. Shot a 3/8" group to boot!

Hot Core:
Sako VIxen/ L461 I think is the number.
Bought it new in 1972 as a .222mag, lasted some over 6000 rnds of reloads: 55gr/25gr 4895, CCI 400's and about 3050fps. Can't be anything wrong with THAT load, as it only shot the same 100 Rem cases thruout. Never had another case fired in it. The only factory shells were those same cases when brandnew. Filled a couple boxcars with dead prairie dogs with those loads.

Now it's got a A&B chambered for .223 and using AA2200. As that's been discontiued, just may go back to the 4895.

I have run em over a Chrongraph. 3040-60/55gr, 3640/both 35 and 40gr. with 23gr AA2200.

This is a one hole shooter with any of these, but, 40gr V max makes a little bit smaller hole. Talking about ten shots @ 100yds of .260" and my tired old eye's. Seldom miss this side of 400yds even in a decent breeze.

George

Hey George, Thanks for the info. Any time I see someone mention getting some "gas" in the face from a pierced primer or a case letting go, I like to find out who made the rifle.

Best of luck to you.

well, i'll answer, but a little sharply..

if you have to ask if a load is too hot, then it's well past too hot

jeffe

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey George, Thanks for the info. Any time I see someone mention getting some "gas" in the face from a pierced primer or a case letting go, I like to find out who made the rifle.QUOTE]

Savage! It only does it ,however, 65% of the time with .223, 55gr.SP, from PMP. No other commercial ammo or hand loads has ever done that in the rifle. roger

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
well, i'll answer, but a little sharply..

if you have to ask if a load is too hot, then it's well past too hot jeffe

Well maybe a little sharply? A shooting buddy of mine asked me to look at his flattened primers last Wed. " Now that's an over load! Right?" My answer was NO. I had been telling him for quite a while that the reason his primers stuck out .010" is that he was suffering from a head space problem. The load that flatened the primers was a slow burning powder pushing a 168 gr. bullet out of his 30-06 at 2400fps.

So he asked and he wasn't beyond a max. condition. He was suffering from the too much head space, reasonable pressure, flat primer syndrome. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
..Savage! It only does it ,however, 65% of the time with .223, 55gr.SP, from PMP. No other commercial ammo or hand loads has ever done that in the rifle. ...

Hey Roger, When you get a Pierced Primer, does the "gas or any metal particles" make it through the action/bolt to your face?

Did it burn your beard off???

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
..Hey Roger, When you get a Pierced Primer, does the "gas or any metal particles" make it through the action/bolt to your face?

Did it burn your beard off???

No metal but deffinitly a warm breeze on the cheeks and forhead. I see Natchez stopped selling that load. roger