I am making a high velocity 180gr load for my partners 30-06 and I am trying the following loads for top velocity and accuracy. All loads use a 180gr Barnes TSX molly-coated bullet and Winchester cases with federal LRM primers.H 414 56.5gr;R22 62gr;IMR4831 60gr;IMR4350 59gr;VV560 59.5gr. Has anyone tried any of these loads?

I haven`t use the Barnes TSX but I have loaded 180 gr bullets in my `06 with IMR4350, IMR4831 and R22 and found IMR4350 to give the best combination of accuracy and velocity in MY rifle.

Hey shootaway

I agree with OJ, IMR4350 with the 180 gr bullets. IMR4831 with the 165-168 gr bullets and the RL22 works best with the 200 gr bullets.

Those amounts are at max but the moly coating must be making a difference. How many time have you been able to reload the brass at those high pressures?

Not the same, but similar. I molycoated plain old X bullets for my 338-06AI. Used WW cases and H414 powder which was a bit more accurate than VV N550. I too used the FC 210M primer as recommended by Barnes load manual #3.
Many one shot kills on Namibian plains game. I would suspect that the TSX's would work just as well, or better.

if you want max velocity at reasnable pressures try R22, NORMA MRP, OR WIN WXR, i have pressure tested the 180 tsx with h4350 and norma mrp...have a look at the diffrence in vel/pressre ratio in the sticky post that collins posted for me.....
AFTER GETTING THE 06 PRESSURE DATA POSTED ABOVE I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SEE ANOTHER POST ON PEOPLE WANTING 06 LOADS!
regards daniel

59gr of imr4350 with 180gr bullet? pretty frickin hot load... you want higher velosity you should just get a 300 mag

quote:

have a look at the diffrence in vel/pressre ratio in the sticky post that collins posted for me..

I wonder how many folks was unable to open the links as I was and just went to read esewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
59gr of imr4350 with 180gr bullet? pretty frickin hot load... you want higher velosity you should just get a 300 mag

I owned three 300 mags and none of them did anything for me that my 30-06 didn't do.....and the 30-06 was a pound and a half lighter!

My only 300 mag now is a H&H and it's here for looks.

I can pull 2,800'/sec with 180 grain Northforks in a 22" barrel......one really don't need more and if he wants more power he should look to larger calibers.

I dont even own a 300mag , just 06's, load 56gr of imr4350 /180 and practice shootin it....

If you want to load that hot you should work up to them yourself in the gun in question.
ALSO....I wouldn't load that hot for a "friend".
I can tell you from experience in the field that super hot loads can and will lead to trouble as things like moisture will jack pressures another 8k real quickly. Can you guarantee your friend can keep his gun in the same super clean condition as when you test at the range?? Something to think about.

Another view....as much as I usually agree with Vapodog....I have a 300 win mag and a '06. The 'o6 is my dust collector. I can find accuracy loads at a super mild 2900 on up to 3100 for the 180's and believe me that's alot of "range" to work with. AND my $289 savage stevens weighs just a tad under 7#'s on the postage scale. AND it's a really decent shooter. I also have 150 grain loads at a super mild 2650 fps for our Wis whitetail season. In my book there isn't a more versatile 30 cal than the 300 win mag.

I haven't used the molly TSX, but I did use and don't care for the coated blue X bullets offered by Barnes. After two years of farting around with them, they just wouldn't produce the accuracy I thought was necessary for long range work, however, the regular TSX seems to be a different story.
My thoughts on powder for the load you seek all point to V-V 560. The added nitro component allows for a higher bulk density allowing larger charges in certain limited volume applications, and you avoid the lot to lot variation RL powders are known for.
I would also prep my cases so as to keep weights as close as possible(internal volume)and focus on neck concentricity.
A 300 mag the -06 will never be, but there is no earthly reason why you can't run it at the same pressures utilized by the more modern 270 Winchester. A fast, flat 30 calibre 180 grain bullet is a force to be reckoned with.

59 gr of IMR4350 is too hot. All of your loads are on the warm side.

Thanks for the replies everyone.I have not yet fired the loads and will reduce them a couple of grains each to start,especially after reading your posts.The owner of this rifle was really happy with the Federal high energy 180gr loads with the bear claw bullet.This gave him a velocity of 2880fps.Federal has discontinued this load and I offered to make him a load that came close with any bullet he chose.We plan on bringing the rifle along with us on next years hunt and both trying it out.I once owned a 270 and got rid of that for a 300WM.I am very happy with the 300WM.My partner is actually my father and he is thinking of buying a 300WM.

It's going to take a few more grains of powder with molycoated bullets because of less bullet to bore friction. Did anybody actually READ his initial question?

I might "buy" up to one more grain of gun powder if it was a great moly and coating job....but in general my experience with moly wouldn't give it "a few more grains".
You can make it to the velocity of the HE loads with todays powders on the market BUT you'll never do it at the pressure the HE guys had. I saw actual pressure tests done on this stuff and it was doing 100fps faster than normal loads at about 55k to 57k. It's just "that different" from the powders and procedures we work with.
Once again...and I stress... it's not worth it to press on up to 70k pressure for "hunting loads" that can very easily make another 8k of pressure when dust, moisture, etc etc come into play with "in the field" conditions verses nice, clean range time.

I had time to shoot the H 414 loads today and shot a 56.5gr load that did 2700fps.It got too dark and I could not shoot the 57.5gr H 414 load.There did not seem to be any recoil or any high pressure signs on the case.Kraky,can you go into a little more detail?

Hey shootaway

Pushing the envelope like that with no pressure signs will show up on about the 3rd or 4th reloading when you have sized, trimmed, cleaned and chamfered the cases and then have to throw them away cause they won't hold a primer anymore. It's a real pain and costly to have to buy new brass and restretch it. Any time I got over 2800 fps with the 180 gr that's what happened to me.

And for what? With a 200 yd zero the 180 gr TSX at 2800 fps drops .4" more at 300 yds, .9" more at 400 yds and 1.7" more at 500 yds than the same bullet at 2850 fps. At 2800 fps the bullet has 80 less foot lbs at 300 yds, 70 less foot lbs at 400 and 63 less ft lbs at 500 yds.

Woop-de-do! For that I won't waste brass, not be able to shoot in hot weather and take a chance on damaging a gun.

The slower bullet would penetrate just as well if not better anyway



JMHO

I'm not sure what detail you are looking for. Did you study the data in the top post on this page..... here is the link..

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/316101735

The point I'm trying to make is that some of the loads you listed are extremely warm. There are lot to lot variations up to 5% with any powder. Sometimes signs of hot loads don't show up until 70,000 psi....sometimes they show up much earlier. Just because Collins got the above results with his gun and his powder doesn't mean you couldn't "hit the wall much sooner". I'm just trying to say be very careful. There are times I push the envelope on some of my guns but I wouldn't do it for anyone else. I'm glad to see you have a chrono and this will help tell if you are getting off the charts. I was most worried about your 59 grain of 4350 load.
Re my comments about "in the field conditions" years ago I worked up what seemed a real safe load for my 340 wby. I went to alaska and after 3 days of being in the rain finally got a shot. It almost locked my bolt up because of moisture in the barrel. Had I been in a dangerous situation it would have not been good. And it wouldn't have been good had I needed a follow up shot on the animal of a lifetime.
That was a "real world lesson" for me and whenever I see posters looking to turn normal reloading into HE loadings I get a little crazy.
Sorry if I rambled too much here.

Kraky were you saying that the people who came out with the Federal HE loads know how to get very high velocities with low pressures? If so,this does not make sense to me.Don't they use the same powders we all use?

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
59gr of imr4350 with 180gr bullet? pretty frickin hot load... you want higher velosity you should just get a 300 mag

I agree with GSP7, 59gr of IMR 4350, way to hot. But the best power to use.

I have to join the other posters who think these loads might be a little warm. Barnes says the TSX may be able to use .5-1 grain more powder than the standard X-bullet. The moly coating (that I assume you are adding yourself) probably gets you another .5-1 grain of wiggle room. But some of these loads are WAY over what the Barnes' manual lists.

Following are the maximums for the powders you list and the 180 grain X-bullet. (Barnes is quite emphatic that you must use the standard X-bullet data and not the XLC data for the TSX.)

H414 54.0; you are 2.5 grains over.
R22 not listed as a powder choice.
IMR4831 58.0; you are 2.0 grains over.
INR4350 55.0 grains; you are 4.0 grains over.
VV560 not listed as a powder choice.

So I respectfully suggest that your backing off these loads a couple of grains to start is not nearly enough to safely develop a safe load. At best, that might be your ending point.

Also, have you considered a slightly lighter bullet? In my .30-06, I am shooting a 168 TSX on a max (60 grain) load of RL19 getting about 2900 fps with 1/2 inch groups. I just used that load on a whitetail deer that I shot almost head on and got almost 30" of penetration. (I'm going to post photos in a new thread.) My point is with a premium quality bullet, you can sacrifice some bullet weight to get some more velocity for slightly improved trajectory and still be able to kill anything you should reasonably be shooting with a 30 cal. TSXs, TBBCs, Northforks, A-Frames, et cet. are so well-constructed that a slightly lighter bullet can do the job of a heavier cup and core design.

With regard to the Federal HE and Hornady Light Magnum loads, those loads are not made with canister grade powders available to us mere mortals.

Regards,

LWD

Shootaway....thats affirmative. They use special powders and have ways of putting it in the case we don't have. There have been numerous reports of people pulling bullets and weighing the powder that comes out of He loadings. The charges are often heavier than we can normally put in.....and if people try and reassemble the cartridge with the components they use.....they can't get all the powder back into the case.

It's also doubtfull that even regular ammo is put together with the same powders we buy as reloaders. Big companies are probably not going to put 60 grains of powder into a 30-06 if they can put in 48 or 50 of something that still gets good accuracy and speed. Can't tell you how many times I've picked up a factory round and shook it only to hear that there's about 15-20% airspace in there when most of my loads give about 100% density as a reloader.

LWD,how do you know what type of powder Federal and Hornady are useing?I'll probably stop if I get near 2800fps.

Shootaway, in re your question, here's a link to an old Gun Tests article discussing this issue:

Gun tests article

See the second, fifth, and sixth paragraphs specifically.

They don't tell us what powders they are using---likely for a variety of reasons.

I also agree with Kraky's foregoing comment.

Regards,

LWD

I know 180grs bullets and vv n-160 are a fine combination,but what about N-150 and 180grs bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
LWD,how do you know what type of powder Federal and Hornady are useing?I'll probably stop if I get near 2800fps.

I have an idea!

Why not just load 'er to the bag; fuck up your rifle; maybe blow a few fingers off, and then come back here and re-read what folks are trying to tell you.

The loads you're quoting are excessive and dangerous. If you want more velocity, go and buy a bigger rifle. There. You've been told. Now go and do whatever the hell you want.

I read the link on HE ammo and found that interesting.I also have the Barnes manual that lists loads for 180gr coated bullets out over 2900fps.Barnes claims there TSX bullet produces higher velocities with less pressure.This is my reasoning behind my attempts at 2800fps.I checked the rifle after the 5 rds fire yesterday and the throat showed signs of erosion as a result of those rds.I think I will try the H414 at 57.5gr and test it for accuracy.I can't play around with the rifle at those pressures because its accuracy life will be reduced.Once I get a fast and accurate load,I will load a box or two of ammo and that will be it.The rifle will only be shot at game.Glep,do you have more info on that VV-560 180gr load?

You want to give a 180 grainer some fuel injection...

Try H 4831SC with a charge of about 62.5 to 64 grains.... start at 60 and work up....

According to the ballistic guys at Nosler, they claim that this load would not be over pressure specs...

But Daniel from Australia, who posts on here stated that it would be...

So make up your own mind... velocity is 2900 plus with a 180 grainer... in my Model 70 and My 1917 Enfield...24 and 26 inch barrels...

1949 Model 70 30-06 24" Barrel:

Federal HE 180 Partition: 2960 fps over Chrony
1.5" - 2.5" groups, lots of roar

H4350 WLR Lapua Brass 180 TSX: worked up loads from 53.0 to 57.0 grains. No pressure signs at all from bolt/brass/primers. 57.0 (15 shots total) 2800fps with sub .5" groups. Several groups were one ragged hoe (those my father shot...lol).

Note: Large Rife Primers..magnums not required.

Other factory 180 loads (Fusion/Fed TSX) did 2770/2775 but not as accurate.

I belive my load is safe, I know it is accurate and the dead deer prove it works. I would be interested to see what a Quickload type program would show the pressure at.

I used 59 grs. of rl-22 with a 180 speer or nosler partition when I had an'06. 2757 f.p.s.

Shootaway....did I miss something or are you thinking you actually saw throat erosion in just 5 rounds of ammo??

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am making a high velocity 180gr load for my partners 30-06 and I am trying the following loads for top velocity and accuracy. All loads use a 180gr Barnes TSX molly-coated bullet and Winchester cases with federal LRM primers.H 414 56.5gr;R22 62gr;IMR4831 60gr;IMR4350 59gr;VV560 59.5gr. Has anyone tried any of these loads?

Hello shootaway. I have been reloading the 30'06 since 1962 which may or may not mean much. I used IMR4831 for 30 years or so and switched to IMR4064 and haven't looked back. My deer load is 51.5gr 4064 with a 150gr Sierra pro hunter. The 180gr Sierra Pro Hunter (flat base) or the Nosler Accubond with 49.5 gr of 4064 should be considered. I have zero confidence in the Barnes TSX in any caliber for accuracy and have tried them in the .243, .270, and '06......they just won't group consistent sub MOA in my rifles. Take a look at the pic I attached.....I reloaded some 150gr Pro hunters for my best friends Remington BDL (an old one I might add). This is performance! PM me if you have any questions. Regards, Rick.

Sidebar....Mr Woods take above is dead center. What he didn't mention is that pushing the envelope when working with these high power rifles can also lead to blindness ( in one eye at least) and missing body parts. Any 180gr bullet out of a 30'06 with a MV over 2800'/sec falls into this catagory...heat treated, pressure tested actions not withstanding...sooner or later bad things will happen. Besides, the dead deer/Elk won't give a wit over 100'/sec MV....just an old man's thoughts. Regards, Rick.

If we all read M98 posted data above we can see that given a modern bolt rifle we can easily achieve 2,800'/sec or so with safe pressures but higher than the SAAMI specs for the 30-06. There is no reason at all that the 30-06 can't be safely loaded to the same pressure as the 270 win. to achieve this increased velocity.

I've been reaching (and have no concerns over pressure) 2,825 from a 180 grain bullet in a 22" barrel. This however should be max and if one wants better than that he's asking for trouble somewhere else.

Regarding the comments on the Federal and Hornady (so-called) HE or light magnum ammo:

The article discussed above in all honesty is just full of shit!!!!

I was an Engineer and worked at Hornady and I can tell you that I personally worked with that process and know what was used and how it was done.....ball powder from Winchester?.....Bullshit!!!!

Special drop tubes?...Bullshit.

Worth the money?....agreed...doubtful!

It's laughable to read all the expert accounts as to how this was done....some have even stated the powder was jell and poured into the cases!

I can duplicate the process right here in my own loading bench.....but it's not worth the time!

Just load the old 30-06 like anything else looking for pressure signs and using reasonable powders like H-4831SC, H-4350, RL22, H-414 etc...

I've been using H-414 lately BTW!!!

Thanks vapodog.

quote:

Originally posted by sakorick:
......and switched to IMR4064 and haven't looked back.

Well, that is exactly what I was going to suggest. My most accurate load ever in a 30.06 was a 180 Speer flatbase spitzer with a max load of IMR4064-----velocity? Who gives a shit when you print .3 groups.

Shootaway, my suggestion is to forget the velocity. Use a regular large rifle primer (I like Federal Gold Medal myself), use a few powders and work on some one holer groups. Whatever shoots best, use it.

I promise you, that 180 TSX will do it's job and no game animal will know the difference in 50-100fps.

My current accuracy load in my .06 is the 168TSX over 55.0 of H4350. Nowhere near max, and I don't care. It shoots .4s all day long. I rarely chrony anymore, I just don't care about velocity. I've never seen a reason to in 20 years of hunting. Just know what the bullet does at the distances your dad hunts. Then you don't have to worry about 'hot loads' that might cause a problem someday.

Thanks Doc,and thanks to everyone else for their replies.Kraky,yes I did,that is a simlpe observation.If you remove your bolt and look down the action to the throat you can see the rifleing at the point where it begins.If the barrel is new you will see 4 full,sharp lands begining.If you fire a few rds at very high pressures you will see the bottom land half its size and rounded off.If you have yet to discover this then you are way behind.When shooting rds at very low pressures,it can take several hundred rds before you start noticeing any erosion.

I just broke the Sinclair arbor press trying to seat the bullet in 59gr of IMR 4350.Those gears are more fragile than I thought.I will post the range results on wednesday.

Shootaway....I don't know what kind of steel your barrel is made of.....but if it really shows visible errosion with the naked eye...in 5 shots.....DO NOT....I REPEAT DO NOT.....GO AHEAD with those high pressure loads.