Been using the bench tonight - checked the broken press post - without getting into the 'pressure' issue, the simple mechanics of squeezing a 180 gn bullet on top of 59/IMR4350 into Norma brass would buckle something. Unless col of 3.41" of use to you - well jammed into lands? With my cases, 56gns/180SMK give 100% fill and 3.33" col. Never loaded that hot though - 56gns under a 168SGK much more repeatable accuracy for hunting.

roughshooter,I think the 59gr load would fit into fireformed cases once they become available.I also planned to increase col.I had no problem with 58gr of H414 in new Winchester cases.I never tried Norma cases,is their volume capacity less than Winchester?

Sorry can't help on the WW comparison - none in that cal. to hand. Are H414 and IMR 4350 identical volume for weight?

Hey shootaway

Norma and WW brass are about the same. Nosler brass holds less. I can get 60 to 61 gr into a Norma or WW after fireforming, about 59 before. You might try RL22 rather than IMR4350. It is very hard to put enough RL22 in a 30-06 to cause serious pressure problems.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Shootaway....did I miss something or are you thinking you actually saw throat erosion in just 5 rounds of ammo??

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
...If the barrel is new you will see 4 full,sharp lands begining. If you fire a few rds at very high pressures you will see the bottom land half its size and rounded off. If you have yet to discover this then you are way behind. ...

Hey Kraky, I have an idea that shootaway's "Loading Technique" may just let him see it on the very First Shot in a new barrel at some point in the future.
---

For all the Rookies and Beginners reading this thread:

1. FORGET EVERYTHING you read in the thread above here.

2. NEVER load for anyone but yourself.

3. ALWAYS develop Loads for a "specific rifle" by working "up" until you see the normal Pressure Indicators.

4. NEVER just toss in a randomly picked Load which is shown as a MAX Load in any Reloading Manual.

5. Be very CAREFUL(LEARY) about information you see which is "significantly different" than what is considered normal.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

2. NEVER load for anyone but yourself.

I agree with everything 100% except this one. I do not load for anyone else but my brother. I'm the one taking out his rifle, as though it is mine, to the range, etc. I keep them with me until the load is complete. Then I test up to 20 rounds or so in the rifle before he hunts with it.

I wouldn't load for anyone else though, but I've been doing his since I began loading. Most of the time I am 2 grains+ under max for a given rifle anyway. I load for his 270 and his 300SAUM.

Come to think of it, he's never killed anything with factory ammo.

Plus, I get to cajole him into buying most of the powder.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
For all the Rookies and Beginners reading this thread:

1. FORGET EVERYTHING you read in the thread above here.

2. NEVER load for anyone but yourself.

3. ALWAYS develop Loads for a "specific rifle" by working "up" until you see the normal Pressure Indicators.

4. NEVER just toss in a randomly picked Load which is shown as a MAX Load in any Reloading Manual.

5. Be very CAREFUL(LEARY) about information you see which is "significantly different" than what is considered normal.

Hor Core.....you should write your own reloading manual. I, for one, would recommend it to newbies as a required basic understanding of reloading.

May I suggest a title:
How to get the best results from reloading for the novice and experienced reloader

It is surprising how often we read things that make us shiver.....Thank God the rifles most of use will hold 100,000 PSI!

If you write such a book please be sure to include a chapter on the AI loads!

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Shootaway....I don't know what kind of steel your barrel is made of.....but if it really shows visible errosion with the naked eye...in 5 shots.....DO NOT....I REPEAT DO NOT.....GO AHEAD with those high pressure loads.

I'm betting what he's seeing is a build up of copper fouling at the throat. However, he's determined to forge ahead, damn the torpedos.

However, like Vapodog, I firmly believe that the 30-06, along with certain other cartridges ARE NOT loaded to their full potential. These include the .257 Roberts, 7x57 Mauser, .280 Remington and the .35 Whelen. Some are underloaded due to weaker guns being chambered to the rounds. The .280 and .35 Whelen because Remington put them in a semi-auto (.280) and pump guns. (.280 and .35 Whelen) The Whelen is further kept from full potential due to the fact that older rifles like the 1895 Winchester and 1903 Springfields had been either rebored or rebarreled to thake that cartridge. I would even be willing to bet, if the truth were known, that Sieeram Hornady, Speer and others have actually worked up data for the true potential of those cartridges, but cannot release the data because of scumbag liability lawyers who would jump on the chance to sue them because somebody blew up a low number Springfield. While I cannot fault them for that, after all it's a CYA world these days, it sure would be interesting to see what really is safely possible in the 30-06.

When the High Energy and Light magnum ammo came out, I bought a box of each for the 30-06. The first thing I did was break one of each brand down and examine the powder. It appeared to be a type of ball powder very similar to Winchester's WMR. Now at about the same time as this higher power ammo came on the market, Winchester's WMR was taken off the market as was Hodgden's H-450 which is purported to be just a different lot of WMR. I'm not saying that WMR is the powdr used in that high powered ammuntion, but it does seem strange than one appears and the other disappears. NOe Winchester first came out with W-780 which supposedly fouled barrels badly, replaced it with W-785 which wasn't much better, then came out with WMR, soon dropped and replaced by WXR which was not a ball type powder. I've never seen any rerason why WMR was dropped. It did not foul any barrel I used it in, makes my .300 Win. mag. shoot great groups with slightly higher velocities, so what in hell was wrong with that powder? I never got a chance to try WXR as it disappeared before I even had a chance to know it existed. Why can't Olin come out with a slow burning powder we can use without dropping it from the scene yesterday.
I was hoping it might be good in the 30-06 as it was great in a .257 Bob, .270 Win. and makes my .280 Rem. into a real tackdriver. I've already mentioned the .300 mag. So, why won't it work with 180 gr. bullets in the 30-06. Winchester only had data for 200 and 220 gr. bullets, and when I wrote asking for data for 180 gr. bullets, they said to use WXR which was already removed from the market. GRRRRR! Careful testing using a micrometer and chronograph have given me some weird results suggesting either I'm near getting an SEE problem or there is way too much powder in the case. That does not make sense as WMR is supposed to be between RL-19 and RL-22 and being closer to RL-22 than 19. Weird. I haven't tried it in my .338 Win. Mag. yet, but I'll get around to it one of these days. I much prefer to do my load work up in the late Spring and on into the summer. If a load is safe at 105 plus degrees, I'm not going to worry much come hunting season.
Paul B.

Here are my results,I boasted the H414 charge up to 58gr and it gave a chrono reading of 2725 with a 1 1/2 inch group at 100yds and a 4 inch group at 200yds.The VV560 load was 2397 fps and gave a nice 1 1/2 inch group at 200yds.Reloader 22 62gr was 2683fps and gave a 3 inch group at 200yds.The "way too hot" IMR 4350 59gr load was at 2598 and I did not try for a group because like the VV load there was no chance for more velocity as the cases were already compressed.Same for the IMR 4831 load think I fired a rd lat time and it was slow,although I am not sure.I reported this to the rifles owner and he was not pleased at all.I told him I would go with the R22 load and fireformed cases,with the bullet seated a touch closer to the lands.The R22 load is the winner.It gives a near 2700 fps with decent accuracy.BTW,the rifle used was a 12yr old Rem 700BDL with a 22 inch barrel and about 50rds through it.

Paul,The H414 58gr load I used was not compressed.I believe I could get more grains in there and raise the velocity.

Should of tryed some R19.

onefunzr2,you may be right on needing more grains with the molly.Although I have not tried these loads without molly,the velocities in the Barnes manual useing XLC bullets were way off.

I was really impressed with the accuracy of the VV560.Before I go ahead and reload a box of hunting ammo with R22,I think I will give VV550 a try.

It may take some work, but I think you might be impressed if you try some IMR4064.

If you e-mail barnes and tell them you are working with the tsx they will e-mail you back with load data....usually they get back within a couple hours.

AND guess what.......Their recomended accuracy powder for the 180 tsx IS 4064!!

quote:

AND guess what.......Their recomended accuracy powder for the 180 tsx IS 4064!!

Looks like Sakorick and I get a blue ribbon!

Thanks Kraky,Doc,and Sakorick,I think I'll give it a try.

For what it's worth...and I don't want to start an argument....there is something really strange about your results with the 59 grain load of 4350. I checked my records and 57 of 4350 in my 23" tikka under a 180 produces 2725-2810 depending on the bullet make. Maybe the moly on the rings of the tsx is having more effect than it would on a normal bullet....it just doesn't seem right. Is your chrono always reliable??

Kraky, wasnt going to say anything but that velosity with imr4350 seems alittle fishy. All my data show 4350 with good velosity in most 3006 loads. Maybe the primer blew and lost velosity

That wassn't the only load that was very low.It seems that the moly on the TSX requires more powder.I use an Oehler 35P and it read my 308 loads correct.

I've got some 180tsx's here that I'm trying in my 300 wby and 300 win mag. No stellar accuracy yet. In the '06 I feel the 168tsx is the proper match of sectional density and potential speed.
On my last trip to the range 58.0 of H4350 was cranking the 168's at 2840 with groups just a hair over 2" at 200 yds. (23" tikka)
My quickload matches up to this data perfectly predicting 2825fps at 58k pressure.
It would be rare for the tsx to lose more than 15% of it's wt which leaves quite a bit more bullet working than say a 180 partition after a tough impact or long path through a big animal.
I guess after reading your results I will never bother mollying any tsx's.....just looks like a quick way to cheat you out of using some of the most popular powders.
Might I suggest trying some 168's....no molly??

That does seem strange because my 300WM moly TSX loads get the same velocities as those in the Barnes manual for XLC bullets.It might be the short barrel is not burning the powder.

I agree with Kraky about the 168 TSX for the .30-06. Given the powder capacity of the case and the potential velocity obtainable, it seems to be a good match. It certainly works for me. I'm loading 168 TSXs in my 30-06 with a max charge of RL19 and am very pleased with the accuracy and performance. And as I said before, I'm not sure that with a premium bullet more than 165 or so grains is necessary.

Also, what Shootaway is doing is darned interesting, and we should give him credit for the idea and trying it. I know that I was critical in my first post (as were several others) because I thought it seemed a smidge dangerous and still do, but the idea of what he is trying to achieve is very interesting.

Thanks for sharing the results.

Regards,

LWD

Shootaway....can you tell us about how your are "mollying" and what brand you are using. I used to moly the old xbt's for a 300 wby and they only reduced pressure for me by about 1/2 grain. I just rechecked my tsx data for 300 win and found I ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT go over any book maxes without running into big trouble....let alot try to run another 4 grain more powder like the old xlc data.
This appeared to be confirmed by the test data at the top of this page where the tsx showed a tad bit more pressure than a nosler partition at the same loads. You got me curious about what you are using and the results.

I am useing the same mollying procedure as I do for the bullets in my 300WM.I use the Lyman powder kit with ceramic media.It could be that the 300Wm is getting velocities which are closer to those published because my barrel is a 26 inch and that used in the Barnes book is a 24.That could be the same for your 300 wby.There could also be a temperature difference because I almost always shoot in the winter and its almost always slightly below freezing.There could be velocity differences among rifles because I saw a load I shot last yr in my mod 70 shoot 100fps slower in another of my mod 70's this year.

I want to add that the load which I just mentioned that shot 100fps slower in another similar rifle was from a new batch of the same powder.

Shootaway , yes, Good work, and good range reports.

With those powder weights id think you would be burning up some brass and $$ .

I was testing out 06 loads and got side tracked with testing my 9.3 x57 experimental loads.

I like hearing range reports on load testing

Rick

GSP7,so do I like hearing range reports.I ordered some VV550 and 570 powder but it seems as if it is going to be a while before my supplier gets his back order.I think the 550 might work great in the 30-06 180gr load.The VV570 is for load development on a 300RUM.I am really looking forward to shooting that.

shootaway , what powder burn rate charts do you have for comparison ?

I have a couple printedouts and posted on the wall in my reloading room. Both area quite different in order.

I like Steve Pages chart but havent copyed in that in that format

I just tried imr4895 in my 9.3x57. It seems real clean burning in that caliber with a 286 gr bullet. Neat stuff in that 366 bore. Im havent used faster powders like that before.

Rick

GSP7,I use the one in the Vithavouri reloading guide.I have downloaded the guide and have it as a desk top item on my screen.