A lot of you may know this off the tops of your heads....but let's see.

What American cartridge from the 1880s made the transition from black powder to smokeless in 1904 (stronger case but same external dimensions) and became so popular in British Africa as a Dangerous Game cartridge that Kynoch began loading for it and did so for a number of years?

What was either its BP name, or its "smokeless" name?

BTW, rifles for it and cartridges are still made in limited runs in America.

This is strictly a guess, but how about the 45-120/125 Sharps and later the 45/120NE? (Jesseosso I didn't know you were such a celebrity!)

i don't know -

the 450 NE not QUITE the same dims, but yes, very close to it, the 45/120NE (my name for it, to not have the 45/70 BP vs PLASMA loadings)

i like my 45/120 NE

Must be the .45-90.

Nope, nobody's got it yet.

A hint....for a while it was chambered in a popular American lever action BEFORE the M-1895 Winchester, but it was also factory-chambered in the M'95.

Could not find it in Cartridges of the World. The 45-90 went smokeless in 1895. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Could not find it in Cartridges of the World. The 45-90 went smokeless in 1895. roger

Hi, Roger! No, the one in question went smokeless in 1904. It was particularly popular amongst Englishmen headed for Africa for the mandatory "Grand Tour" for lion, though it has killed a fair number of Buff too....

I'm not sure it ever was popular among the big names like Percival, Taylor, etc. but one must remember that at that time there was very little available of the same power which could be had in a repeating rifle of more than two shots.

Was it a favorite of Teddy Rosevelt?

QUOTE]Originally posted by ted thorn:
Was it a favorite of Teddy Rosevelt?[/QUOTE]

Ted, obviously you've got its modern name. Congratulations!! So what rifle was it in when it was a black powder loading, and what was it called as a black powder cartridge?

I will just leave my mark/hint for others to chase.....think levergun.

M95
It was the .40-72 which went to the .405.
Not the same external dimensions though.
The bullet diameter changed.

Winner!!

Now whats next?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
M95
It was the .40-72 which went to the .405.
Not the same external dimensions though.
The bullet diameter changed.

But the case dimensions did not change other than to become thicker which very slightly reduced powder capacity. And either case could usually be fired in the other, though it would likely not be safe to fire the smokeless loads in the BP rifle because of the different pressures produced by smokless powder, not because of the .002" to maybe .004" larger diameter bullet, depending on who was loading it.

It's kind of like using .358" bullets in a 9x57 Mauser. It's still a 9x57 Mauser, even though the bullets are not .355" any more when that is done.



So what was the original rifle?

1895 Leveraction

For the .405 Winchester, yes. But the original rifle for the 40-72 Winchester was the M1886 Winchester.

The original factory loaded 40-72 bullet was also commonly 300 grains, but .408" diameter and not jacketed. Black powder pretty much bumped that up to whatever bore diameter was on an individual gun...dimensions tended to vary.

When the round was converted to smokeless, jacketed bullets were used. Because they were harder to bump up, and because smokeless does not bump up bullets as readily as does BP, the bullet diameter was originally listed as .412" in the .405 round, probably to surely fill whatever size bore it was fired in.

But today, it is back down to .411" and some bores may be a bit tighter than that.

I still find it interesting that one of the original popular "powerhouse" African smokeless cartridges was an American round. It was popular enough in Africa that even for a few years after it was dropped by U.S. ammo companies, Kynoch still loaded it.

What threw me was the bullet diameters ,one was listed as .406" and the other .412". Nice exercise but sneeky. roger

From those few bits of obscure Winchester lore I can still recall, the .40-72, along with its stable mate the .38-72, were two of the three cartridges introduced with the 1895 Winchester rifle, the third being the smokeless .30-40 round. All of these three rounds have basically .30-40 head and rim dimensions as does their later steroid-laced brother the .405 ...and nasty curved steel buttplates, OW!

The .40-72 was not chambered in the 1886, though the '86 did come in .40-65 WCF, .40-70 WCF and .40-82 WCF, all being based on various lengths of the .45-70 case.

I have a '95 in .38-72 and have no qualms about loading it to Krag-like pressures. It makes a dandy smokeless round, though the twist rate of 22" in the '95 limits jacketed bullets to not much more than 235 grs; much over that they start tipping.

I figured it was the .405, but not knowing what it "morphed" from I was not certain. Thanks for the historical insight.

quote:

Originally posted by bpesteve:
From those few bits of obscure Winchester lore I can still recall, the .40-72, along with its stable mate the .38-72, were two of the three cartridges introduced with the 1895 Winchester rifle, the third being the smokeless .30-40 round. All of these three rounds have basically .30-40 head and rim dimensions as does their later steroid-laced brother the .405 ...and nasty curved steel buttplates, OW!

The .40-72 was not chambered in the 1886, though the '86 did come in .40-65 WCF, .40-70 WCF and .40-82 WCF, all being based on various lengths of the .45-70 case.

I have a '95 in .38-72 and have no qualms about loading it to Krag-like pressures. It makes a dandy smokeless round, though the twist rate of 22" in the '95 limits jacketed bullets to not much more than 235 grs; much over that they start tipping.

I'll take your word for it, but that is NOT what the Wolfe book Big Bore rifles and Cartridges says. It very clearly says the cartridge was introduced in 1886 as one of the original chamberings of the '86 Winchester.

It is also possible it was the 40-70 to which they were referring as the parent of the .405...I'll have to check that and eat crow if I mistakenly said 40-72 when I should have said .40-70 - - - still interesting development and African-American history though.

It's a good thing I like bird game for the table, just in case.

Edited to add: Nope, just checked it out....it WAS the 40-72 they say was the parent.

Have been re-reading the entire Wolfe chapter on the .405 Winchster yet again. Though the grammar is somewhat jumbled, it could be they were referring to some other cartridge (unclear to me now) as being in the '86, neither the .40-70 nor the 40-72.

The 40-70 Win was based on the 45-90 case.

The other .40-70s are the .40-70 Maynard, Ballard and the .40-70 Sharps Straight and the Sharps bottle neck.

The only straight Winchester in the M95 was the .40-72.

AC,
I am a little familiar with these rounds due to my BPCR shooting. I have long toyed with chambering a 95 Dutch Mannlicher to .38-72 or .40-72 due to the compatibility of the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:


AC,
I am a little familiar with these rounds due to my BPCR shooting. I have long toyed with chambering a 95 Dutch Mannlicher to .38-72 or .40-72 due to the compatibility of the magazine.

That's very interesting to me. Is the Dutch magazine long enough for the 40-72?

I have a couple of those M95 Hembrug carbines and converted with a rifle barrel, they'd be a lot like some of the 375-2&1/2" rifles I used to have from the various Brit makers....only way more powerful I suspect. A .38-72 especially would be very similar.

If I had my shop straightened away, I could go out and just try a piece of .405 brass in the magazine of one of them, but I can't get at either right now.

The .405 rim is too large for the Dutch bolt face and the clips. The rims have to be both thinned and turned down. The XX-72s are smaller and may be too small to work in the clips too.

Remember the Dutch round has a 2.110 case with a very long 160 grain bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
The .405 rim is too large for the Dutch bolt face and the clips. The rims have to be both thinned and turned down. The XX-72s are smaller and may be too small to work in the clips too.

Remember the Dutch round has a 2.110 case with a very long 160 grain bullet.

Yes it is long. I just had never even thought of comparing it to a .405 case or thge Mannlicher action, which is why I asked someone who had (you!).

I really like the 6.5 Mannlicher (R) case, BTW. Have rifles firing it in both bolt action and Ruger #1 form. Nice thing about the No. 1 is that it works just as well with the rimless 6.5 M/S cartridge....and it let's me have a 28" barrel for maximum velocity at sane conventional pressures without having an over-long, clumsy, rifle. I've got form dies too, so making cases from either .303 Brit or .30-40 Krag has never been a problem of any kind. That's the first 6.5 cartridge I ever re-loaded for, starting in 1947.

Thanks for the info.