It is a little surprising to me that when the members here are suggesting the use of powders, seldom are any of the readily availeable low cost surplus powders recommended.

In my testing I have found powders like 2230-C , wcc 844, wcc846, 5010, accurate data 73, 86 and 2200,and yes even IMR 7383, when used intelligently to produce great results at a minimum expenditure.

What seems to be the restriction here? Are these powders too low on the sophistication level? Does the hazardous shipping cost become a deterrent?

This one kind of stumps me! roger

I think part of it is that you don't see these powders in many gunshops/reloader supply shops. Also, lack of readily available data on some of them possible scares people off. I just haven't had any real contact with anybody using any of the surplus powders since my dad used up his 4831.

bartsche: I'm not familar with the powders you mentioned. Where do you get them, how much are they and where do you find data for their use? (now you know why I don't use them )thanks

That's a really good point.

I'm fairly new to the reloading game, but if you can get a product with less expense that works the same as a more expensive one, well, that's just good economics.

On the availablility... I'll go ask my two suppliers about stock of these poweders and let you know what I come up with as a representative example in Long Island, NY.

On the data....? Any suggestions there? I have a burn rate chart that doesn't list those, unless the name is shortened or abbreviated differently.

Let us know
EMC2

Having to buy 8 lbs at a time turns me off. Maybe someone should break up some into 1 lb cans for trial packs.

I have some WC820 and have good results thus far...

First of all, most of the milsurp powders come with loading data. They also caution you that different lots of a given powder, e.g., WC 820, may vary in burning rate/speed. Second, you can find additional loading data by searching this board's archives (Try IMR 7383 for starters.) or by going to:

http://www.castpics.net

Scroll down to "research & data."

Third, if you research Jeff Bartlett's GI Brass site or HiTech ammo's, you may find a powder that suits you. If so, see if you and some friends can share a case (four 8lb. jugs; can be mixed) so as to lower or entirely avoid the Hazmat fee. Lastly, a few of the milsurp powders, e.g., the very slow WC 860 & IMR 5010 are ideal for ~full case (48gr. of either in a .30-06 or 8 x 57mm Mau. case)cast bullet loads. WC 820, on the other hand, works for all my cast bullet shooting in rifles between .243Win. and .45-70 Gov't., but in very samll quantities (13-14gr. in the .243Win.).

Sources

HI-TECH Ammo,LLC**1-800-468-8617

Natchez shooters supply**1-800-251-7839

Powder Valley**1-800-227-4299

Shot Gun News under reloading components,Pat McDonald,Massillon Ohio,Bartlett, 1-800-714-6348 and others. Check the internet.

Prices range from $24.00/8lbs. to $69.00 /8lbs. Some places pay some or all of the Hazmat depending on purchased quantity which is really great if you combine your order with 1 or 2 friends as I do. Right now the powder that has taken my fancy is Accurate data 86. Similar to Accurate 3100.

Working up loads can be easy enough. There are numbers of members on this forum alone that can help you and there is usually some info supplied on the jugs. roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

I've been loading and shooting GI surplus powders for 5 years or more........ The first batch came from hy-tech, since then I've been doing business with Jeff Bartlet at www.gibrass.com . I usually split a 6 pack with a couple of other loading buddies about once a year.

So far, I've tried WC-860, WC-844, WC-846 WC-820, IMR-4895, and SR-4759. Once when I called Jeff for an order, he had just got in a small supply of what he called WC-814. It was supposed to load like WW-231, was pulled down from 45 acp ball ammo. I got an 8 lb jug, I wish I had got more! Turned out to be the bee's knees for 40 S&W and 45 acp. He also had at another time some chineese new powder that was a production over-run for some ammo company. He dubbed it NM-04, said it burned like, loaded as green dot or dupont PB. Excellent for 12 ga shotgun or 9mm 124 grainers. It's a coarse pelleted powder, but goes through my dillon measure quite well. He never put it up on his website, didn't have enough to last, but the next time I called for another order, I asked if he still had some. He said he was down to 4-5 pound jugs, I took it all!

I'd have to say that this type of powder is best left to reloaders that have been doing it for at least 5 years, or 10,000 rounds, which ever comes first! The reason I say that is there's only a suggestion of what data to use with it. Always a caution that the lot-to-lot variation can be quite a bit. I'd add that if you don't have a chrongraph, you maybe should not use surplus powder. A chrono will show if you're treading in too high a pressure area.

At first, the WC-844 was new powder, then it could only be found as pull-down. The pull-down,(in my experience), is a bit slower than the new powder.

I use plenty of surplus powder with very good results....AA2230-S, IMR 4895, WC844, WC846

The loading data that came with the 8lb. kegs gave a good starting point and they tell you what the equivalent name brand powder it's burning rate is equal to.

With that said, I still started low and worked my way back up, with no ill affects.

I have found the surplus I purchased to be every bit as accurate as the name brand powders at a considerable savings.

Good Shooting

HL

So can you guys that have tried it, give some details about the WC860 & 872? Speeds, accuracy, cleaning of fouling issues.
Also the IMR 4475 experiences would be appreciated. (3031 is excellent in a Roberts) Thanks, Nate

I cam't give you velocities, but I will say this about Jeff's WC 860: it shoots to one hole in my BDL 7MM RM using 79 grains, a Federal 215 primer and whatever case you choose. Any questions?

What I find a little strange is when a guy will buy one or two pounds for a load work-up in a rifle he intends to use alot. Before you know it, the powder is gone and hunting season is just around the corner. Back to square one when he needs more powder. I like to get at least one or two 8# jugs of powder if I know that is the stuff I'll be using. I like the surplus stuff and use quite a bit of it. The old guys I know call it cannon powder (?) I call it powder that I got a good deal on.

Another thing a guy can do is find out the sive number that was used and buy a sive and re-sift the powder into two lots of the same stuff. One for accuracy and one for practice. This helps in the accuracy department as powder is screened for size per lot.

Bartsche.

SHHHH dont tell everyone about this powder. I dont want it all to be gone when I need more.

Jason

Here are some chronographed results for my 22" bbl'ed. .30-06 with various bullet weights & types and milsurp powders:

52gr. IMR 7383 + 125gr. Sierra SP -> 2,697 +-22
55gr. " " + 168gr. Speer BTSP -> 2,470 +-13

49gr. IMR 5010 + 175gr. CB + 1.0cc Grex & mag. primer -> 1,758 +-24

49gr. IMR 5010 + 195gr. CB + 1.0cc Grex & mag. primer -> 1,768 +-18


For the 8 x 57mm Mauser (26" bbl.):
50gr. IMR 7383 + Hornady, Sierra & Speer 150gr. SP's & stand. LR primer -> 2,449 +-17

48gr. WC 860 + 195gr. CB & mag. primer ->
1,757 +-15, NO Filler (not needed)

49gr. IMR 5010 + 0.3cc Grex + 215gr. CB & mag. primers -> 1,807 +-21

49gr. IMR 5010 + .03cc powdered bran + 240gr. CB & mag primers -> 1,797 +- 22

To be continued on my next post.

Some caveats: (1) These aren't cannister powders, or in the case of IMR 7383, even conventional ones. Ergo, lot-to-lot variation is something to be expected. A chronograph is absolutely essential to develop loads for your rifle with your bullets. (2) The very slow powders, e.g., WC 860, WC 872 and IMR 5010, burn more efficiently with heavy bullets and magnum primers. Some will even duplex them in the .45-70 with cast bullets. (3) IMR 5010 works best with cast bullets if you use a filler (1.0cc or less) such as Grex or powdered bran (Bf); WC 860 & WC 872 do not. (4) IMR 7383 is an oddball (artillery spotter powder), but it works well so long as you understand it and don't push it to the max.: Use a chrono.! Although it's not like any one cannister powder, you can start with IMR 4064 loading data, chronograph your loads and adjust your charges, but be mindful of sudden, excess pressure. Hope this helps!

I just knew I wasn't out there all alone. roger

I have a licence to shoot a deer, elk, bear, and a cougar. Should I get my 1% chance of getting a shot off in this suck ass WA state, it will be with surplus IMR4895 powder.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have a licence to shoot a deer, elk, bear, and a cougar. Should I get my 1% chance of getting a shot off in this suck ass WA state, it will be with surplus IMR4895 powder.

Well you have WA.State pegged. Not much sense to even waste your time on a lisense here. Their main interest is only to write you a game citation anyway. Takes a couple lawyers just to figure out their game regs. Even the Wardens can't answer your questions about them in most cases. But that won't stop them from trying to write you. No I haven't got written by them but I know some folks that have and it was pretty CS.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have a licence to shoot a deer, elk, bear, and a cougar. Should I get my 1% chance of getting a shot off in this suck ass WA state, it will be with surplus IMR4895 powder.

And that is the only surplus that I ever received that was chemically deteriorated!!!???? roger

do not tell any body lets keep the secret. Let every body think they are junk.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:


Well you have WA.State pegged. Takes a couple lawyers just to figure out their game regs.

WA regs are so complicated that they hurt my feelings.
And I can understand the UC2854 integrated circuit data sheets.

I've been shooting surplus powders since 1958 when it was 50 cents a pound by the pound. OR $6/25 keg. Never been happier than when I just recieve a case full of 8# jugs of various one's.

AA2200, 23gr in .223 is fine, produces one hole long as the gun don't move. Bought six jugs of it myself and now down to less than half of the last one. Do wish I had six more. Guess what? That's been discontinued now, ahhh damn!

4895, 4831, 3031, 4064, it's all been great. Only problem I've ever had with any powder.

I run out of the damned stuff too soon!!

Load ammo by the buckets full. Don't recall the last time I had to buy freshly minted high dollar powders. Unless it was in 95 when I started back to loading again after about 15 yrs. Sure was a shock to learn that $1.50/lb powder was now selling for $16/lb. Hasn't slowed in it's climb yet.

Some advice from this guys experience. Find a source and price, pick a powder and buy a semi trk full of it and primers too. You won't regret it, I promise.

Primers haven't been too bad on price increases though. My first was 35 cents/100, now just about $2.35/100. But, head that off by buying 5-15 or 20,000 at a time so that's a lot cheaper yet. I just Monday rec'd 15,000 more. Was getting low and the price was right.

Wish I could locate powder the same way now. May look at some of these sites to see what's going on and what they've got.

My last 25-30 jugs have been from www.powdervalleyinc.com, great people to deal with. I highly recommend them. Located near Wichita Kans.

Good shootin,

George

First surplus powder I ever used was 8138. Don't know exactly what it is (still got 1/2 lb left and wish I had more), but have used 4895 data as a starting point.
Just checked my shelves and found three full 8lb jugs of 2200 plus a smaller bottle I use for dispensing. Two jugs of Data 86 powder keep the others company. Have a friend whose mother-in-law lives on the Oklahoma/Kansas border. Whenever he goes to visit, on the way back he stops by Powder Valley to replenish our stocks. Great people out there.

Okay, I dug out some reloading notes to put some loads up on here.

.223, WC-844 24.0 Gr., Hornady 60 grain HP,(2275), OR 60 grain V-max,(22281) ww-sr. No velocity readings for those 2.

.223 55 grain WW sp, WC-844 26.0 grains ww-sr primer. No velocity here ether,(got it wrote down somewhere). Both of these loads shoot VERY well in my Bushy AR-15 20" bbl.

7-08 rem, WC-844, 43.0 grains Hornady 100 grain HP, ww-lr, shoots 1/2 " groups@100 yds. Browning a-bolt stalker 20" bbl.

.308 win, IMR 4895,(pull-down from Jeff Bartlet) 43.0 gr. rem core lockt 150 grain bullet,(midway el-cheapo bulk), good plinking load, 1.5 inch groups from a savage M-11. I feel if I were to spend some load developement time with this load, It would shoot a bit tighter.

300 WSM, WC-860 from Hi-tech. 220 grain match king, 73.5 grains,(compressed), 2444 av vel., dull BOOM low pressure, not a good powder for that application.

I, at one time, loaded some '06 with some WC-844, can't remember how much, must not have wrote it down. They were loaded for my M-1 garand, to avoid the bent op rod issue. You use H-335 for load data, that's right in the burn rate of 4895. It worked great, my aging eyes can't use the peep site, so it COULD be very accurate.


Much better load with RL-19

How close are WC860 and Data 86? Is the Data 86 worth the higher price over the WC860? Nate

Nate, I don't know, I don't know anything about data 86. I have loaded some .280 with 160 grainers, it was fairly accutae BUT again no sharp crack, just a dull boom, lotsa unburned powder, low velocity.

I was told that the 860 was to be loaded using H-870 as a data reference. In my experience, with the powder I have, it's slower than H-870.

I was loading for a 7 mag for a while, I wanted to try it in that, but the rifle was sold before I got a chance. A buddy has a 300 win mag, I may offer him some to try out, if it works he can have the rest of it.

The hazmat/shipping is the killer for me, I'd have to order at least 32 pounds before it starts to make sense. As much as I like to shoot, that's just too much powder for me at one time, and I haven't been able to find enough folks up here with cash in hand to split an order.

My first surplus powder I bought was in mid 60's 100lb of H-4831 $45 delivered I still have a few lbs that only one of my guns gets fed it, I also bought from AA when they first started had a add in Handloader 8lbs of 3100 for like $24 came in a milk jug, I have and use 4895 BLc2
and 870 all from hi-tech.

Hey ROGER I live in San Dimas if you want someone to go in on a powder order let me know, also have you bought from Phillps Wholesale in Covina if not you need to.

I've tried Data 86 powder in my .243Win with 87gr Hornady V-Max bullets just on a whim. Maximum load was 46.5gr of powder, resulting in poor grouping and very flattened primers/slight cratering. With my rifle, this puts Data 86 about a touch faster than Accurate 3100 and IMR 4831; definitely slower than H-4350 (which I tried, also); faster than H-870.

Check out Thunderbird Cartridge Co. in Az.Their line of T5020 + T5070 is hard to beat pricewise.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
I've tried Data 86 powder in my .243Win with 87gr Hornady V-Max bullets just on a whim. Maximum load was 46.5gr of powder, resulting in poor grouping and very flattened primers/slight cratering. With my rifle, this puts Data 86 about a touch faster than Accurate 3100 and IMR 4831; definitely slower than H-4350 (which I tried, also); faster than H-870.

Am surprised at your results with Data 86 in your .243. My Stevens 200 has shown some real potential with Nosler 70 gr, 80 gr and 95 gr Ballistic Tips, as well as Speer 70 gr TNT's and Sierra 80 gr Blitz's. The Ballistic Tips have shot the best, so far. My first 5 shot group with the 95 gr Ballistic Tip, CCI-200 primer 43.2 gr Data 86 and twice fired Federal case measured .61 of an inch at 100 yards, and average 3058 fps on the chrono with a standard deviation of just 14. Pretty impressive, IMO. Maybe you should try some different bullets with the Data 86. You might be pleasantly surprised. But then. on the other hand, more for Roger and me if you aren't!

-- no pressure tested load data -- and no, the surplus powders are not the same as civilian powders. As for all the loads kicking around on the internet, no one in their right mind would use a load just because someone posted it on the internet.

-- terrible cold weather performance with some surplus powders. High standard deviation, and bullets not even exiting the barrel.

-- cost difference is not worth the bother -- though that may change now that Hodgdon bought out Winchester powder.

-- I tried WC820 and my gun did not like it. Poor accuracy, high standard deviation, less velocity. Anything WC820 will do, WW296 will do better.

I'm all for saving money, but that's what the 22 LR is for.

quote:

Originally posted by popenmann:
-- no pressure tested load data -- and no, the surplus powders are not the same as civilian powders. As for all the loads kicking around on the internet, no one in their right mind would use a load just because someone posted it on the internet.

-- terrible cold weather performance with some surplus powders. High standard deviation, and bullets not even exiting the barrel.

-- cost difference is not worth the bother -- though that may change now that Hodgdon bought out Winchester powder.

-- I tried WC820 and my gun did not like it. Poor accuracy, high standard deviation, less velocity. Anything WC820 will do, WW296 will do better.

I'm all for saving money, but that's what the 22 LR is for.

Then don't use it! The supply that's out there will last longer for me and others that aren't paranoid.

You tried ONE type of surplus powder, then condem all the rest because you either didn't load it right, or your "GUN" didn't like it with the one bullet you tried it with. Sour apples!

popenmann, A subscriber to this thread asked for examples of milsurp powder uses, which Roger Bartsche, grizz and I provided. However, I bitterly resent the implication in your statement that "no one in their right mind would use a load because someone posted it on the internet." No one is forcing you or anyone else for that matter, to use that data, but why not keep an open mind on the subject, or better yet, try it yourself. For your information, my data has been tested repeatedly and published by the Cast Bullet Assoc. so it has acquired the authority of the printed word, which should please you. Lastly, I'm surprised you didn't mention that W296 is one of the least forgiving of powders (Winchester data cautions you to use it exactly as published, components included.) whereas WC 820 is quite the opposite.

quote:

Originally posted by popenmann:
-- "and no, the surplus powders are not the same as civilian powders."

And 4895 and 4831 are what? roger

Am I wrong,,,,I thought Hodgen only bought out IMR.

Did they also buy out Olin?

quote:

Originally posted by HL:
Am I wrong,,,,I thought Hodgen only bought out IMR.

Did they also buy out Olin?

Hodgdon did not "buy out" winchester powder, they just became the DISTRIBUTOR of winchester powders. Now, maybe, the winchester line will stabilize, they will quit discontinueing powders that I used.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Brasky:
popenmann, A subscriber to this thread asked for examples of milsurp powder uses, which Roger Bartsche, grizz and I provided. However, I bitterly resent the implication in your statement that "no one in their right mind would use a load because someone posted it on the internet." No one is forcing you or anyone else for that matter, to use that data, but why not keep an open mind on the subject, or better yet, try it yourself. For your information, my data has been tested repeatedly and published by the Cast Bullet Assoc. so it has acquired the authority of the printed word, which should please you. Lastly, I'm surprised you didn't mention that W296 is one of the least forgiving of powders (Winchester data cautions you to use it exactly as published, components included.) whereas WC 820 is quite the opposite.

Excellent post Paul. I knew that someone would say that about my data. In essence he's right, no one should use my data EXACTLY as written. Because of it's nature, surplus powder HAS to be worked up gradually with each jug, UNLESS it's the same lot.

When I order from Jeff Bartlet, If I get multiple jugs of the same stuff, say WC-844, it's all the same lot. 6-8 months later if I again order some more, it's always a different lot. I HAVE to work up the load again, to be sure I'm not dealing with a faster burn rate. Not too uncommon from what I've heard others do when buying new CANNISTER grade powder! So what's the beef???¿

Is it paranoia? Or do they not love to experiment? Better never buy a wildcat, their panties would really get tied in a knot not having reams of published data to load by!

grizz, Thanks for the kind words! Btw, I learned from Buckshot at the Gunloads>Cast Boolits site that another of my articles using, gasp! milsurp WC 820 in the SKS was published by the CBA. I too have been using surplus powders for quite some time and have had nary a problem with them with one exception. To wit, I used one called "Surplus .30-06" following the loading data explicitly for my .243Win., but discovered my starting loads were too hot. A call to River Valley Ordnance confirmed that my lot of powder was faster than their loading data indicated. Needless to say, I pulled the remaining bullets and RVO quickly sent me a revised set of data: End of problem! As I wrote earlier, a chronograph is a necessity when using milsurp powders; but so is an open mind and willingness to experiment.