Hot Core, I did some work last year w/ Blue Dot in the 257 Roberts. I was very pleased. I'll list the thread below. I used the 90 gr Sierra BTHP bullet. The load was being worked up for a friend of mine who was going to take his two young grandsons on a TX deer hunt and wanted them to both use the same round, albeit different guns. Between the 2 kids, they ended up killing 5 deer w/ 6 shots. (Also hunted in AR.) Wounded one deer on a bad shot by the boy. My freind was very impressed w/ the results and wants me to load up some more for the upcoming deer season.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp...14/r/1981014#1981014

I've been playing around with Blue Dot for quit a while.To me it is THE universal powder.
I first used it in Shotshell loads and tried it in pistol rounds when I ran out of Bullseye.It is very economical.And you won't blow yerself up with it if you don't try to reach Maximum Magnum velocities.
I use it for reduced loads in my Cowboy guns.I can hit what I'm lookin' at.
In my BR and Varmint rifles I use Benchrest,IMR's and other proven powders.
Just for chuckles ,I loaded some cast 50 grns. in my .220 Swift w/ Blue Dot.Don't know how fast they were going,but an infant could stand the recoil and muzzle blast.And accuracy is just right for plinking.

And Rich Jake, you can trust Seafire's pointers.He doesn't brag.His loads work.Some of which he speaks,I have already done and the loads work out just fine.Other loads are new.I bought an old 30-30 for a truck gun and it has Seafires loads in it right now.I got an old Enfield in .308 with 15 grns BD behind gas checked 140 grainers that I drag around the woods.
Stick around,you will like it here.
Also try out the Political Forums if ya want some real chuckles.

Hey Gary T, Thank you sir! I'm sure he will appreciate the ground you broke.

Let me encourage you to head up to Memphis for a day or so. Don't want "Rita" to plant a kiss on you.

Same-E-same for all you folks in the potential path. God Speed!

OK Guys I really don't want to argue anymore. My concern was more surronding the large magnum cases & the use of Blue dot in them.

I do plenty of handloading. What I was trying to find out is this, if you got a case that holds say 100 grains of blue dot(probably not accurate guess on my part) as described by seafire to the rim. Then you back off the load to what amount?

Then after you have done this how are you so sure, that whatever that amount you are going to try is not over pressure or won't spike? Do you understand what I'm trying to ask? Also when you fire that first round in that cartridge the first time are you holding it in your hands or tying a string to the trigger for the first shot?

Seems to me, to be rather risky. When you can find reduced data from some of the powder manufacturers. Do you understand my line of thinking. Is the risk worth what you might get? I guess that's really the question.

Okay Jake;

YOU mentioned a caliber... a Magnum.. her is the data that I submitted on the 300 Win Mag that I worked up....

YOU want to shoot holes in it, fine....
YOU find it useful great....

I am sure you don't like to be criticized when you extend a helping hand or share something with others for no personal or financial gain on your part....Just comments like yours make me wonder why take the time and why share it with fellow forum members if this is going to be the results....

My work is strictly with rifle calibers... I am not much of a pistol guy although I do carry a 1873 Colt as a back up and protection gun against bear and cougars in the Oregon back country....

Here is the 300 Mag data for you to peruse...

Range Report: Blue Dot & 300 Win Mag

Rifle Used: Browning A Bolt,

Barrel length: 26 inches

Capacity to Rim: 70 grains

Primer Used: CCI large Rifle
Case Used: Remington


Bullet: 150 grain Remington SP:

28 grains: 2383 fps
29 grains: 2392 fps
30 grains: 2441 fps

31 grains: 2487 fps
32 grains; 2526 fps
33 grains: 2560 fps
34 grains; 2634 fps
35 grains: 2688 fps

Several rounds had a stiff bolt lift at 35 grains. I would recommend to stop at 33 to 35 grains.
Bullet was seated to the cannelure.



Bullet: Remington 165 grain Corelokt SP

28 grains: 2221 fps
29 grains: 2236 fps
30 grains: 2331 fps

31 grains; 2350 fps
32 grains: 2383 fps
33 grains: 2412 fps
34 grains; 2486 fps
35 grains; 2530 fps

1. Even thought several rounds had a stiff bolt lift at 35 grains of Blue Dot with a 150 grain Rem SP, that was not experienced with a 165 grain Rem SP.
2. Bullets were seated to the cannelure.
Work up your loads for safety sakes. 33 to 34 grains would be recommended max.


Mv of 2200 fps was picked because the goals here also were to give a 200 yd deer load...

any Spitzer bullet zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, will be dead on at 200 yds, and 3.5 inches low at about 230 to 240 yds.. Deer at 18 inches from backbone to brisket regardless of weight.. therefore with a 9 inch window of opportunity ( 18 inches cut in half) your bullet will not be higher or lower than 3.5 inches from the line of sight out to 235 yds.. since 95 % of all deer are taken in less than 100 yds, this should cover most deer hunting situations... it will also reduce recoil in a 300 mag by about 60%...

Accuracy will rival varmint guns...Non premium bullets are recommended.. and at lower velocity a ballistic tip or mag tip speer are my recommendations... they will open up down to 1500 fps or less and also will out penetrate a partition at the lower velocities...

I have tested blue dot down to 14 grains as a starting load, with no filler.. and had no ignition problems I got to 14 grains... the full case was 70 grains and 20% of that was 14 grains....the target max load was 35 grains for 50%.... I show where the bolt handle gave some resistance and recommend that the shooter consider 33 or so grains to be max and also show that the gains in velocity is not really worth the extra risks of 116 fps MV between 33 grains and 35 grains.....

so what more should I have done???

seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
..., if you got a case that holds say 100 grains of blue dot(probably not accurate guess on my part) as described by seafire to the rim. Then you back off the load to what amount?

Hey RJ, Seafire has some Rules-of-Thumb that helps get folks started with the various size cases. Just as Roger mentioned, Seafire has "modified" them over the years to get people started at Safe levels and a "general idea" about when he has found it a good idea to STOP "with his rifles and loads".

quote:

Then after you have done this how are you so sure, that whatever that amount you are going to try is not over pressure or won't spike? Do you understand what I'm trying to ask?

Good question that can be answered a few different ways. I prefer to use good old CHE/PRE to tell me when to STOP adding Powder. As the Pressure Ring begins increasing in diameter with the increase in Pressure, it is a gradual rise, when increasing the Load in the small increments as Seafire advises. I use the PRE from some Factory Ammo or even from some Handloads know to be Safe as my Benchmark Standard and STOP when I get to that level.

Lets say I have an Average Factory Ammo PRE of 0.5135"(made-up number). And perhaps my initial Load with the Blue Dot measures a PRE of 0.5105". As the load increases I watch the PRE increase and Stop at or before the PRE matches the 0.5135". I may find the Accuracy I want at 0.5120" and Stop right there.

Generally there is a level of accuracy found below the SAFE MAX that makes it unnecessarsy to continue adding Powder. It is important to remember that we are looking for Reduced Loads that are Accurate and Safe. If they aren't going Slower, at less Pressure, have excellent Accuracy and Safe, then nobody would be interested in them.

I've shot a lot of Reduced Loads with a lot of different Powders over the years. Some Powders work well for Reduced Loads and some don't and how good they actually work can shift between cartridges.

quote:

Also when you fire that first round in that cartridge the first time are you holding it in your hands or tying a string to the trigger for the first shot?

That is up to you. Nothing wrong with that approach if the idea concerns you. Or, you can stick to Reduced Loads shown in the Manuals. Lots of available Reduced Loads from lots of Bullet and Powder manufacturers. Only problem is that some of them are not as "low pressure" as some of the Blue Dot or "2400" Loads I use and also don't have as good of an Accuracy level.

quote:

Seems to me, to be rather risky. ...Is the risk worth what you might get?

Since there is the same level of risk for "me" as using SAFE MAX Loads in my rifles, I don't give it a second thought. But, I have a lot of years messing with Reduced Loads, well before Seafire got the Blue Dot bandwagon cranked up.

If you are uncomfortable using them, just open your Load Manuals and use what they offer. But if you ever decide you want 22Hornet levels from a 223Rem and you want "better consistent accuracy" than you can get with a 22Hornet, you will find that the best Loads for achieving those goals are not (as yet) published.

Same for getting the youngsters started hunting with Low Recoil, Safe Pressure and highly Accurate Loads.

the method of getting a start load and approximate max is filling a case full of powder(to top of neck), and then pouring that into a powder pan and weigh.......correct?

....and then:

20% of that weighed amount is the "start load", if ya wanna start that low.

50%-60% of that same weighed amount will give you an APROXIMATE max load in most cases. but you would need to watch yer own gun to observe YOUR comfortable max load.......correct?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Jake:
OK Guys I really don't want to argue anymore. Do you understand my line of thinking.

Actually I do ,Jake. In fact based on all the information you have and accept I would say you are quite correct. I think your conclusions would change ,however, if your information file included ALL that was posted here on blue dot from the start. Earlier in this thread I indicate that I was ,perhaps, in the same camp as you. That is because the information in my brain file was fragmented.I think most of us here feel that you are sincere and do not think you are just being anal. I for one would not respond to you if that were the case. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
...the information in my brain file was fragmented....

Is that from shooting Scout rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by Ralph Hyrlik:
Seafire,

I want to try BD, but I am scared. In my experience, small charges of fast powder may be prone to detonation.

Can you guys help me understand what "detonation" means. I have heard this term on this forum before and I am kinda in the dark here.
Thanks

Hey Steve, Might be a good Topic for a separate Thread, but I can see where folks are concerned about it in this thread, so...

I will eliminate Black Powder from my portion of this response.

Normally our Powders are refered to as "Progressive Burning". As you know, that means they begin burning as the Primer Flame ignites them and then as the Pressure begins building, the Powder continues to be consumed further along the Powder Column toward the Bullet. The bullet begins to move forward slightly, increasing the Chamber area which reduces the Pressure a bit, and the burn continues trying to Increase the Pressure as the bullet moves forward. Eventually the Powder is consumed and as the Bullet accelerates, the combustion area gets larger which reduces the Pressure. All this can be seen in the Charts available in some of the Reloading Manuals.

Detonation occurrs when the Powder tends to ignite all at once. The Bullet can't get moving forward "quickly enough" to increase the Chamber area which lowers the Pressure to a SAFE level and you can blow-up the firearm. Using Powders typically thought of as "Slow Burning" in Reduced Loads is one thing that can cause Detonation. ALL Reloading Manuals place WARNINGS in their instructions about not going below the Loads shown with the "Slow Burning" Powders.

You can also use too much "Slow, Medium and Fast Burning" Powders for any specific cartridge/bullet combination and achieve Detonation, which are Over-Loads.

The idea with Reduced Loads is to have SAFE Loads, which create Lower Peak and Sustained Pressure than what occurrs during Detonation, by using small amounts of either "Medium or Fast Burning" Powders. It results in less Recoil, lower Velocities, less Powder cost and often excellent Accuracy depending on the Powder being used.

Thanks to all of you for indulging me in my questions. While I understand the formula & what you are trying to achieve. I still think there's a possibility of a disaster doing this. I guess until I see some kind of pressure testing done on it, I personally wouldn't try it. I just think that there is just too much not known & until I see some kind of test results, I would not trust it or recommend it to others.

quote:

Paul H

Posted 13 September 2005 23:47
In my .308, with 125, 130 and 165 gr bullets, 18.5 gr's is the magic load for accuracy.

Thanks for that information. I've been looking for a reduced load for my son to use for Texas Whitetail. Do you recomend a particular bullet for use in an approx 100 -150yrd range?

Seafire, hate to see someone jump on you for sharing your data man, I have done blue dot loads in 243, 7mm08 and 338WM and they are really cool. Thanks for the data and time you have invested, its good stuff.

I would love to get your data in some form of a document, word or excel or whatever. I have some printed out from these forums but it will be great when you guys have it all put together.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
... I still think there's a possibility of a disaster doing this. I guess until I see some kind of pressure testing done on it, I personally wouldn't try it. ...

Hey Rich Jake, Sounds like a fine "offer" for a rich man to have the Lab Testing done on all the cartridges Seafire has data on. Trying to think of who you can contact to run the Certified Lab Tests for you. I believe there is a "Whyle(spelling looks wrong but it is pronounced that way) Lab" in Atlanta that can do the work.

Might run $40-$50/shot but I feel sure they can give you a volume discount rate. Lets say they cut it to $30/shot and you have a series of 15 Loads in 0.2gr increments per cartridge and bullet. Only $450.

Probably want to try a few different bullets, how about 5 different Weights and a couple of different brands for a total of 10 different bullets in each cartridge so we have a good broad range to pick from and you are only up to $4500. Obviously not a problem for a rich man at all.

And there may be 15-25 cartridges on this Board alone where people are using the Blue Dot Reduced Loads. We can call it 20 for grins which takes you to $90,000 for the Certified Lab Testing.

And to get really good data, you need to repeat the Testing hundreds of times, but lets say you just go with 10 re-tests and you are now at $900,000, which any really rich man will see as a wise and SAFE investment.

Whyle Labs will provide a nice Certified Lab Report that is very useful for the exact components they used in "their" barrels. Of course, that provides a starting place for all of us to use with "our" barrels as we Develop Loads from below while watching for the traditional Pressure Indicators and CHE/PRE.

Let me be the first to say Thank You, but.... Huuummm, come to think of it, I believe we can already do that exact thing(Develop Loads from below while watching for Pressure Indicators) with Seafire's info - simply amazing!
---

One other bit of info I'll be glad to share with you in case you are interested in Home Strain Gauge Systems(HSGS):

A non-Calibrated HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold)

Dubious Dan,
Here's a link to a comment I made about similar topic, also on this forum.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../362106043#362106043
Hope you find this helpful. Gary T.

quote:

Gary T

That was useful. I have some 125 Nosler BTs hanging around and will give them a try.

To: Dubious Dan:

I have had good luck with any ballistic tip, or Speer Mag tip or plain old Hornady SPs and Remington Corelokts.. the only ones to really keep away from are the hard premium bullets.. such as partition, bear Claw, etc...In defense of Barnes X which I normally don't care much for, they do open at low velocities tho if you are leaning that way...

A slow Ballistic Tip will out penetrate a fast partition in most of the testing I have done...

I'd recommend a 150 grain over a 125 grain, if the deer or game is larger.. as the heavier weight will penetrate deeper....


Stinker:

Thanks for the kind words and the backup....I appreciate it more than you know...Getting flamed for passing on assistance to fellow shooters kinda gets one's goat.. Like the people from New Orleans at the Dome in Houston getting all pissed off when they were offered sandwiches and water, instead demanding Quarter with Cheeses, Fries and a large coke....

cheers
seafire

quote:

A slow Ballistic Tip will out penetrate a fast partition in most of the testing I have done...

I'd recommend a 150 grain over a 125 grain, if the deer or game is larger.. as the heavier weight will penetrate deeper....

I think I have a few 150 BTs hanging around and will try them too. My rifle seems to prefer 150s in standerd loadings.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
... I still think there's a possibility of a disaster doing this. I guess until I see some kind of pressure testing done on it, I personally wouldn't try it. ...

Hey Rich Jake, Sounds like a fine "offer" for a rich man to have the Lab Testing done on all the cartridges Seafire has data on. Trying to think of who you can contact to run the Certified Lab Tests for you. I believe there is a "Whyle(spelling looks wrong but it is pronounced that way) Lab" in Atlanta that can do the work.

Might run $40-$50/shot but I feel sure they can give you a volume discount rate. Lets say they cut it to $30/shot and you have a series of 15 Loads in 0.2gr increments per cartridge and bullet. Only $450.

Probably want to try a few different bullets, how about 5 different Weights and a couple of different brands for a total of 10 different bullets in each cartridge so we have a good broad range to pick from and you are only up to $4500. Obviously not a problem for a rich man at all.

And there may be 15-25 cartridges on this Board alone where people are using the Blue Dot Reduced Loads. We can call it 20 for grins which takes you to $90,000 for the Certified Lab Testing.

And to get really good data, you need to repeat the Testing hundreds of times, but lets say you just go with 10 re-tests and you are now at $900,000, which any really rich man will see as a wise and SAFE investment.

Whyle Labs will provide a nice Certified Lab Report that is very useful for the exact components they used in "their" barrels. Of course, that provides a starting place for all of us to use with "our" barrels as we Develop Loads from below while watching for the traditional Pressure Indicators and CHE/PRE.

Let me be the first to say Thank You, but.... Huuummm, come to think of it, I believe we can already do that exact thing(Develop Loads from below while watching for Pressure Indicators) with Seafire's info - simply amazing!
---

One other bit of info I'll be glad to share with you in case you are interested in Home Strain Gauge Systems(HSGS):

A non-Calibrated HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold)

HEY PARDNER

YOU CAN REFER RICH JAKE TO H.P. WHITE LABORATORIES FOR SCIENTIFIC AND RESEARCH ANALYSIS. I'M SURE THEY WOULD BE GLAD TO HELP HIM OUT.

THANX FOR THE WORK YOU GUYS HAVE ACCOMPLISHED ON THIS PROJECT.

Hey Stinger, Thanks for that addition. Always nice to give a guy willing to spend money plenty of options.

I used to use "LAW Engineering" in Charlotte a good bit for "independant test verification" of various things, but I feel sure they do not test cartridges.

Our old buddy JCN (Lawndart) will eventually have his "Certified" Lab set up. And I feel positive he would be glad to take on some Testing for Rich Jake if the combined volume is too large for all the other Labs.

I really think you guys need to switch to decaf!! LOL !!!

way to have a sense o humor if nuthin else

i can understand aprehension.....or "being skeered" a lil bit. if i had not had .223 blue dot data from a good buddy beforehand, and seen a LOT of seafires testing here over a good period of time, maybe i would be more skeptical also.

this thread brings into view that more people use the stuff than some of us recognize, and this is not the only board i've seen others using it fer such.

a note worth mentioning......what about all the wildcat cartridges out there in use with absolutely NO data to work with at all. somebody has to start somewhere with it. although i reckon reduced charges may be a lil different....i suppose

reduced charges which give reduced velocity...but NOT reduced pressure, by the way.

safety first...n

Hey RJ and KYODE, Glad you guys recognize the "intended" humor. Always better to laugh "with" folks than "at" folks.

Another excellent source for Reduced Loads are the Lyman Reloading Manuals. Plenty of Testing done there on all kinds of bullets.

Plenty of good Reduced Info around when a fellow looks for it.

Best of luck to you all.

Dear sir, I was recently gifted with a caddy of Blue Dot and am looking for reduced loads for my 7mm BR rifle. Could you give me a starting load? Also, what are your suggestions for developing loads for new cartridges? I do and will shoot about anything. Mark

A safe starting load would be 100gr. or 110 gr. bullet and 10 gr. of Blue Dot. Take whatever precautions you can to eliminate the possibility of throwing a double load. As you work up you probably will arrive at a point that if you do throw a double charge it will completely fill the neck or over flow. Till you arrive at that point take additional care.

In the way of a suggestion for your initial Blue Dot reloading---Weigh one load, charge one case look at the filled case and seat one bullet. Load in this manor perhaps 2 each with 10 gr., 2 each with 11 gr., and 2 each with 12 gr. Shoot the 10gr. than the 11gr. and so on noteing any presure indications.

From all the data available you probably will not see any real pressure signs until you go over 15gr. and maybe not even than. Once you have found your working load area on that bullet ,with some aquired confidence start on another weight bullet with what you feel from your experience is a safe starting load. Feel free to contact me if you need help.

Seafire would be another guy to PM for help. roger

quote:

Originally posted by YR:
Dear sir, I was recently gifted with a caddy of Blue Dot and am looking for reduced loads for my 7mm BR rifle. Could you give me a starting load? Also, what are your suggestions for developing loads for new cartridges? I do and will shoot about anything. Mark

The following are loads in my 7mm X 41 which has a case capacity of 2.2icc as compared to the 7BR with 2.18cc. Non of the following loads had any high pressure indications.Wear glasses because there may be inadequate sealing due to low pressure. ( gas in face).

154gr spire pt. 10.5gr. Blue Dot, Dirty, 1160 to 1277 fps.3 shot 3/8" grp 50 yds.

150gr. PP, Winchester bulk, 10.5 gr. Blue Dot, Dirty, 1264 to 1285 fps., 5 shot 3/4" grp, 50yds.

140gr. Sierra spitzer, 12.5gr. Blue Dot, dirty, 1479 to 1553 fps.5 shot 3/4" grp.

150 gr. PP. Winchester bulk, 12.5gr Blue Dot, dirty, 1464 to 1478 fps.so-so.

120gr. spire Hornady, 12.5gr. Blue Dot,dirty, 1562 to 1608fps., 3 shots same hole 1 shot 1/4" out, 50 yds.

120gr. pistol, Hornady, 12.5gr. Blue Dot, dirty, 1584 to 1718??? fps.4 shot 1/4" group, 5 shot 1/2" group, 50yds.

120gr. pistol. Hornady, 14.5gr. Blue Dot, 1773 to 1830 fps. 4 shot 3/8" group 50yds.

120gr. sierra spitzer, 14.5gr. Blue Dot, 1744 to 1819fps. 3 shot 1/8" group, 6 shots 3/8" group, 50 yds.

140gr. Sierra spitzer, 14.5 gr. Blue Dot, 1647 to 1682 fps. 3 shot 1/4" group 5 shot 1" group.

Please be fully aware that the concerns expressed buy other loaders on this thread are REAL.Intelligent loading seasoned with no small degree of caution are necessary when using a fast burning powder that doesn't overflow with a double charge.roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

Roger,

That last pointer is IMPORTANT..

I recommend to all reloaders, the best way to avoid a double charge, particularly of the lighter loads...

Charge a case, then seat a bullet... before going on the the next case...That will eliminate the possibility of a double charge...