Looking for a place to start w/blue dot the 7mm-08 and 120gr bullets. Suggestions please!



HPD

You can safely start with 20 gr. of Blue Dot. Seafire will probably give you more thorough info . roger

I get approximately 2400 fps (SD < 10) from 22.6 gr Blue Dot using the Sierra 120 SP and Win brass, in a youth Rem M7 AND a youth Savage 10, both with 20 inch barrels. Accuracy at 100 yds is 1 inch in the Savage, 1-1.5 in the Rem. Many thanks to Seafire and Bartsche for their posts on this stuff.

High plains drifter:
You are going to have a great time with the bluedot loads. Don't get a swelled head when they stack into one ragged hole at 100. Post some of your factory groups and then a few of the blue dot groups for these guys to see.

Hope this hasn't been on here, long.. If so, sorry I missed it earlier....

I'd have to say that if you were looking for no muss, no fuss.... the advice given above was great.. several of the guys beat me to it... ( Loosing my notariety I guess)....

I'd start out at 18 grains, and work up either in full grain or half grain increments.. your choice.. to a max load of 22.5 grains...

If you want to run it down just to play with it, we have played with it down to about 10 grains to make the recoil equivalent of a spitball gun!

Accuracy still held! at 10 grains!!!

Each rifle is different, but Blue Dot loads have cleaned up some real ACCURACY HOGS in my possession...Also play with the seating depth...

Blue Dot has the potential to be a real tack driver....

another tip I like to give that most guys miss or don't comment on...

with an MV of 2250 fps, if the scope is zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, your bullet will be dead on at 200 yds and about 3.5 inches low at about 240 yds....

A Niece of mine in Montana has used that load in her Browning A Bolt in 7/08 and has taken quite a few deer and antelope so far.. upgrading to a 140 grain ballistic tip, she took a very large cow elk last year....Her Dad is More Proud of her than she is of herself.. Both loads were 22.5 grains of Blue Dot...

cheers and good luck
seafire

In my .308, with 125, 130 and 165 gr bullets, 18.5 gr's is the magic load for accuracy.

Much thanks for the info guys! I've used blue dot loads in 223's for along time....very fun stuff.

The 7-08 loads will be for my eight year old daughter to get some good practice in with something more suitable for deer. This will be here first year hunting deer and since I've got a 7mm-08 Improved I figured I'd kill two birds with one stone.........

She can fireform brass for me while getting accustomed to something bigger than .223. She'll be limited to 100yds or less on broadside deer only, so it will be nice to push a 120 Btip to around 2200 to keep recoil down.

Muchos gracias!!


HPD

hey seafire i've used some blue dot for a few handgun cartridges in limited amount. i think it's great stuff so far. really nice in a 14" .223, and works great for fireforming 30-30AI, and a 35rem rimmed i'm using.

i ocassionally run into others that are skeered of it's safety.........especially in large capacity cases such as belted magnums.

any thoughts on the safety of using blue dot for reduced loads?

thanks

Kyode;

I have used it in cases as large as the 300 Win Mag and 338 Win Mag... It has no position sensitivity, seem to not be effected by high temps, or temps as low as the 30s around here.. A few guys have used it in temps down to zero also and heave told me that they had no ignition problems or changes in point of impact...

The first bigger bore I used it in was the 444 Marlin.. I just used published loads for the 44 Magnum and they gave the exact same velocity in a 444!

Guys that are afraid of it, just haven;t used it and are adhering to old wive's tails... I think most people who panic over reduced loads are thinking about the phobia of reducing 4350 and 4831 and slower powders and have heard where it blew up someone's rifle...So they now think it applies to lack of safety in all reduced loads...

Blue Dot also gives higher velocity and is a lot cleaner burning than Unique etc, and a lot of those are used by cast bullet guys all the time..

It also doesn't become prone to pressure spikes like a lot of other fast powders do....

Like everything in firearms, more negativity is probably passed on out of ignorance, or no experience: people just passing on what someone else said...

Just like reloading itself.. use you head and don
t get stupid and it is perfectly safe....

cheers
seafire

I am anxious to try the Blue dot with a 10" 7mm-08 barrel I just got. I HAVE been using it in a .338WM and have posted some pics of my 7mm Rem Mag with a 15" Encore on another forum and it seemed to get some people pretty riled up how about Blue Dot was going to blow my gun up. I have even looked at a strain gauge system to check for myself. I have been impressed with the research that Seafire has done with the Blue Dot loads on a wide variety of cartridges and I use his data in my .243 as well. I think it is a pleasant shooting powder that seems to develop a "sharp" pressure peak that is very consistent. I have had best luck with the lighter bullets in a given caliber. I plan on trying it in my 300Win Mag next.

Seafire was a good recomendation for a .270 or .30-06'?

I have also used the blue stuff in 300 win. Mag and .338 for the past couple of years now. It just does not matter if you start with the powder column in the down position, or turn it upside down so all the powder is at the tip or lay the cartridge horizontal and shake to even the powder out. It just dosen't matter. I have heard many warnings about the possiblity of detenation/explosion possibilities using reduced loads in large volumn cases. Haven't had one yet but what I have had is a whole lot of fun shooting little bitty holes.

quote:

Originally posted by cal30 1906:
Seafire was a good recomendation for a .270 or .30-06'?

Is that WHAT is a good recommendation for a 30/06 or a 270?

Drop me a PM with your email address and I will forward you my load data work on both....

Cheers
seafire

Seafire pm sent

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Kyode;

I have used it in cases as large as the 300 Win Mag and 338 Win Mag... It has no position sensitivity, seem to not be effected by high temps, or temps as low as the 30s around here.. A few guys have used it in temps down to zero also and heave told me that they had no ignition problems or changes in point of impact...

The first bigger bore I used it in was the 444 Marlin.. I just used published loads for the 44 Magnum and they gave the exact same velocity in a 444!

Guys that are afraid of it, just haven;t used it and are adhering to old wive's tails... I think most people who panic over reduced loads are thinking about the phobia of reducing 4350 and 4831 and slower powders and have heard where it blew up someone's rifle...So they now think it applies to lack of safety in all reduced loads...

Blue Dot also gives higher velocity and is a lot cleaner burning than Unique etc, and a lot of those are used by cast bullet guys all the time..

It also doesn't become prone to pressure spikes like a lot of other fast powders do....

Like everything in firearms, more negativity is probably passed on out of ignorance, or no experience: people just passing on what someone else said...

Just like reloading itself.. use you head and don
t get stupid and it is perfectly safe....

cheers
seafire

Sir I am not trying to stir the pot here or anything just curious as to what your credentials are? What means are you using to test for pressure spikes and so forth?
I have tried it in the 30-30 with cast bullets and did not have very good luck, it did show to be position sensitive at least in my case.
I had orginally bought some BD to try in the 223 as I had seen good results with it and still have plans on trying it.

Kyle, skeered, no, cautious, yes.
Jeff

Jsh:

My credentials are just like yours... Load it up and see what happens.. Starting at a mid point and loading down to a certain velocity ( like 1000 to 1500 fps) and then work up until I see pressure signs on the brass and primer.. go over that until it blows the primer and then analyse what volume was a safe point limit...

Like a 243 case I recommend a max charge of 22.5 grains.. although I have loaded it up to 25 grains....

As far as your luck in a 30/30.. I agree with you.. I tried it in that case and it just did not perform the way it did in other cartridges..

the 30/30 gave the only bad results that I have experienced...However I did try SR 4759 in that case and it performed excellent.. to the tune of taking one accuracy pig and turning it into a real impressive shooter...

Blue Dot has done the same to several other rifles in other calibers...

I still stand by that Blue Dot has a lot of utility and a lot of guys who have tried it report the same results....

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Jsh:

My credentials are just like yours... Load it up and see what happens.. Starting at a mid point and loading down to a certain velocity ( like 1000 to 1500 fps) and then work up until I see pressure signs on the brass and primer.. go over that until it blows the primer and then analyse what volume was a safe point limit...

cheers
seafire

Ok so where do you get your midpoint to start off with since there is no load data for what you are doing??? I'd just like to know since Kyode is advocating your load work & saying it is safe. Thanks.

rich, i have NEVER EVER said it was safe. i've posted disclaimers with most threads at SP, as had okiecruffler also.
i don't have a clue if it's safe, dangerous, or just plain crazy. i've only posted about it's use out yonder in the world, and the few times i tried it myself. when i did try it for myself......i loved it and it worked excellent.
all i can say for sure is that i've read about it's use in a few places, and not only from seafires use, but others as well. i trusted their judgement because i had read so much about their exploits and posts returned showing very favorable results.

options are out there.....it's up to the individual shooter to choose for himself if he feels safe doing anything with it or not. i had just tried to inform others of goings on elsewhere, so more options were available to us handgunners.

seafire....could you give them a list of calibers you have worked data on? i've seen a bunch on here over the past couple years.


jsh.........never hurts being cautious


actually.....the .223 is where i first heard of it's use, before ever running into seafire. a couple different websites have articles, and i had also seen posters at the go go varmint go board talk of it's use in the varmint fields.

[URL=פMå±±§¤ßåߥ¤× (11:44 PM) : ]blue dot article[/URL]
*evidently this link is blocked* but it is at rocky raaabs site, and on blue dot in .223.

too bee, or .223 articles

+ try a search here on "blue dot". should be a lotta old posts going back a couple years anyway.

Kyode
Maybe I should have said" he was confident in your load work & trusted it." However, That still doesn't change me wanting to know how the midpoint is being ascertained? Since there is no such data for these combo's that are being done. The very first load tried could be the last!

quote:

confident in your load work & trusted it

good deal rich.....we can go with that

he uses percentage of case fill.......but i'll let him tell that part

oh yeah jsh......."skeeered" is only my hillbilly figure of speech fer cautious

quote:

Originally posted by KYODE:
rich, i have NEVER EVER said it was safe. i've posted disclaimers with most threads at SP, as had okiecruffler also.
i don't have a clue if it's safe, dangerous, or just plain crazy. i've only posted about it's use out yonder in the world, and the few times i tried it myself. when i did try it for myself......i loved it and it worked excellent.
all i can say for sure is that i've read about it's use in a few places, and not only from seafires use, but others as well. i trusted their judgement because i had read so much about their exploits and posts returned showing very favorable results.

options are out there.....it's up to the individual shooter to choose for himself if he feels safe doing anything with it or not. i had just tried to inform others of goings on elsewhere, so more options were available to us handgunners.

seafire....could you give them a list of calibers you have worked data on? i've seen a bunch on here over the past couple years.


jsh.........never hurts being cautious


actually.....the .223 is where i first heard of it's use, before ever running into seafire. a couple different websites have articles, and i had also seen posters at the go go varmint go board talk of it's use in the varmint fields.

[URL=פMå±±§¤ßåߥ¤× (11:44 PM) : ]blue dot article[/URL]
*evidently this link is blocked* but it is at rocky raaabs site, and on blue dot in .223.

too bee, or .223 articles

+ try a search here on "blue dot". should be a lotta old posts going back a couple years anyway.

kyode

rockys address is: http;//www.reloadingroom.com/index.html

quote:

As far as your luck in a 30/30.. I agree with you.. I tried it in that case and it just did not perform the way it did in other cartridges..

the 30/30 gave the only bad results that I have experienced...However I did try SR 4759 in that case and it performed excellent.. to the tune of taking one accuracy pig and turning it into a real impressive shooter...

Blue Dot has done the same to several other rifles in other calibers...

quote:

As far as your luck in a 30/30.. I agree with you.. I tried it in that case and it just did not perform the way it did in other cartridges..

the 30/30 gave the only bad results that I have experienced...However I did try SR 4759 in that case and it performed excellent.. to the tune of taking one accuracy pig and turning it into a real impressive shooter...

Blue Dot has done the same to several other rifles in other calibers...

Interesting, I ended up with the SR4759 myself. I got my BD data out of a load book for TC's, RCBS data. I tried it and ran it up to their max load. Not any better than a start load.
As to it being position sensitive in the 30-30. I had heard very good results with BD from other sources. I asked thise fellow if he had seen any signs of PS in any of his loads and his answer was no also. As to my knowledge he had used it in pretty much straight wall cases. that might have been the difference there, or so I thought. The data that I had seen for the 223 and BD I got from GGVG several years ago and had not shot any 223 to speak of for quite a while so I never pursued it any farther than grabbing a pound of BD. With the experiance that I had with the 30-30 I fifigured that the 30-30 was just to large of a case. Then I see these fellows using it in a whole lot more, 2-3 times larger than an old 30-30.

As to blowing primers, not my best choice of showing pressure signs. Primers vary so much that what one finds safe, or even a start load may be max or way over for the next person. Loading habits vary from what one gent does to the next. I for one clean primer pockets every single time I use the case. Another friend of mine was having some problems, had one of those crocagator primer pocket cleaners in my extra box, he said what is that. Long story short, his problems went away with cleaning the pocket.

I think it would be very interesting to have the equipment to pressure test some things like this. Once again, don't get me wrong here. I have been using some milsurp powders for several years with no problems, so I guess I may be playing on the raw edge at times also.
Jeff

When I use the method of blowing primers as a test for 'too much pressure'... I always back off what I recommend as max loads by several grains with Blue Dot and SR 4759.....

With fast powders, several grains can be a lot...

However, these have shown me that there were no pressure spikes up to the point that the primers blew....they all started showing pressure signs before that point and each caliber/case showed that the pressures climbed to that point very systematically... NO real surprises...

I normally look for a load to give me 10 firings out of brass ( what I consider normal service life) before I recommend it....

I share with others on the forum what I have found out.. it is not considered to be a recommendation... we all try this stuff at our risks...

I also share with everyone, where I started finding the upper end borders at....

But if people want to run a load right up to the max.. why not just use a slower powder then?????

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Jsh:

My credentials are just like yours... Load it up and see what happens.. Starting at a mid point and loading down to a certain velocity ( like 1000 to 1500 fps) and then work up until I see pressure signs on the brass and primer.. go over that until it blows the primer and then analyse what volume was a safe point limit...


cheers
seafire

How do you determine the mid point to start at ??? Please?

Hey Seafire, I seem to remember someone offering to help you get a Blue Dot Reduced Loads Manual printed up, maybe last year.

Any progress made on this project? I still want one if you all get..... scratch that, when you all get it done.
---

By the way, I was speaking with a real good buddy yesterday who plans to take his daughter Deer Hunting for the first time this year. He has a 257Rob that he is fixing a short stock to fit her and we were talking about Reduced Loads.

Has anyone done any Blue Dot Reduced Loads for the 257Rob?

Hot Core, Hopefully I'll get you some BD 257 loads later today from my cousin.

22gr. 4198 will give a 120 gr. bullet 2200 fps.That's close to 1300 ft.# of energy at the muzzle. I guess for close shooting ( less than 100 yds.) it'd be OK?

What bullet and velocity do you think he is looking for?

And yes I did offer to help with the publishing of the Blue Dot Manual. I wonder if Alliant would be willing to make a contribution?. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
...What bullet and velocity do you think he is looking for? .. And yes I did offer to help with the publishing of the Blue Dot Manual. I wonder if Alliant would be willing to make a contribution?. roger

Hey Roger, Brain is apparently in the Senior Mode setting, but I think he said 100gr for his daughter. Thanks for any data to get him started.

I'll email the link to him.
---

Didn't remember it was you with that publishing offer, but I still think it is a good idea(anyhow ).

I have used Seafires Blue Dot loads with great results. Makes for an accurate, low recoil load for wife and kids to get started with. As far as hunting, I tried pistol bullets, and had great success in a 7mm-08 and a .308

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
Kyode
Maybe I should have said" he was confident in your load work & trusted it." However, That still doesn't change me wanting to know how the midpoint is being ascertained? Since there is no such data for these combo's that are being done. The very first load tried could be the last!

Jake,

let me know what caliber you are looking to start with and I will forward you my work done on it, if I have loaded that caliber...

IN a lot of experimenting I can tell you what max loads are in a lot of different sized cases....I originally started with the 223, and then also went to the 444 second, and used 44 Mag loads in it...from there I went to the 22.250, then the 243... 260 Rem, 6.5 x 55, 6mm Rem, 7 x 57, 7/08, 30/06, 30/40 Krag, 30/30 Winchester, 270, 8 x 57, 300 Win Mag, 338 Mag, 338/06, 6.5 x 57.. So if you are looking at a cartridge not listed but in general size and capacity to one of the above, I can let you know what is max or the midpoint if you want to tackle it from there....

That covers most of the calibers I have done work with and data compiled with....
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Seafire, I seem to remember someone offering to help you get a Blue Dot Reduced Loads Manual printed up, maybe last year.

Any progress made on this project? I still want one if you all get..... scratch that, when you all get it done.
---

By the way, I was speaking with a real good buddy yesterday who plans to take his daughter Deer Hunting for the first time this year. He has a 257Rob that he is fixing a short stock to fit her and we were talking about Reduced Loads.

Has anyone done any Blue Dot Reduced Loads for the 257Rob?

Hot Core,

that is actually being done.. a manual.. slowly working on it.. getting it put together takes more time than the publishing...

Although I have not done any work with the 257 Roberts, ( I love the caliber, just don't own one yet!) I can give some pretty close data points depending on the size of bullet he wants to use.. If he is looking at 100 grains, both 6mm Remington and 6.5 x 55 data will give results close enough for government work....

If he is looking for 120 grainers, then the 6.5 x 55 and 6.5 x 57 work I have done will also be real close if not right on what he is looking for ...

Drop me an email...if he needs some data....

I'll put you on my list for those desiring an autographed copy of the Blue Dot work.. I am trying also to tie it into some booklets for youth loads by caliber.. Like the 257 Roberts or the 260 Remington etc...

OOOOPs I see Roger Bartsche has you lined up on the post below this one...
thanks Roger! Let me know if I can be of anymore assistance on that Hot Core...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
...that is actually being done.. a manual.. slowly working on it.. getting it put together takes more time than the publishing...I'll put you on my list for those desiring an autographed copy of the Blue Dot work.. I am trying also to tie it into some booklets for youth loads by caliber.. Like the 257 Roberts or the 260 Remington etc...

THANK YOU!!! Looking forward to getting it.

I'd mentioned to Roger in another post that if it is possible to have the dimensions similar to one of the Speer or Nosler manuals, it sure would be easier to fit on the shelf. As for myself, I don't care to have it all "fancy", just good data to give a Handloader a place to start.

If you would like the File I have on CHE & PRE to include, I'll be glad to send it to you for inclusion in the Manual. If you don't want it, that is fine too. The benefits are that it provides methods for the Handloader to actually see the increasing Pressure as he increases the Load and allows him to STOP if the CHE/PRE matches what they have seen in Factory Loads. Plus, it would help in case his rifle generates more pressure than the ones you use to develop the loads.

quote:

Although I have not done any work with the 257 Roberts, ( I love the caliber, just don't own one yet!) I can give some pretty close data points depending on the size of bullet he wants to use.. If he is looking at 100 grains, both 6mm Remington and 6.5 x 55 data will give results close enough for government work....

If he is looking for 120 grainers, then the 6.5 x 55 and 6.5 x 57 work I have done will also be real close if not right on what he is looking for ...

Drop me an email...if he needs some data....

I've sent him a "link" to the thread. He is on the road with his job at the moment, so anything you all can provide to help him out will be great.

He was telling me he has purchased a stock to cut down for her. He is just about to bust because he is so happy that she wants to hunt with him. I guess a lot of you all know that feeling.

Thanks for the info and I look forward to the Manual.

Seafire
The fact that you cannot or will not explain how you begin with what you call a mid point load tells me you are not to be trusted. I have to laugh by the response of some of the other guys here as well. I wish the best of luck to you & the rest who are taking a risk using these loads that are being thrown about! Don't worry I won't post here anymore. Hopefully I won't be reading about any accidents in the future. Good luck !

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
...The fact that you cannot or will not explain how you begin with what you call a mid point load tells me you are not to be trusted.

Hey RJ, You have just missed a lot of posts on the use of Blue Dot Reduced Loads here at AR for a very long time. I've been Reloading for right at 49 years and some of the guys here have more experience than that.

quote:

I have to laugh by the response of some of the other guys here as well.

I must have missed a post from "denton" cause he ALWAYS makes me laugh too.

quote:

I wish the best of luck to you & the rest who are taking a risk using these loads that are being thrown about!

I understand your concern for SAFETY and that is shared by everyone I've seen post to this thread.

At the same time, NO ONE is forcing anyone to use the Blue Dot Reduced Loads. The buddy of mine I refered to previously has a lot of CHE & PRE data for the Loads he currently has for his 257Rob. So, he can reference them, pull out the SAFE MAX PRE info and use that as a Benchmark Comparison Standard.

As he works up the new Blue Dot Reduced Loads, he can watch the Pressure Ring as it increases in diameter and Safely STOP before the Pressure is excessive or dangerous.

We really have no desire to get anyone hurt or blown-up. So, some of us use the very best Pressure Detection Methods ever devised, which are time-proven extremely effective ways to watch for Excess Pressure - good old CHE/PRE.

quote:

Don't worry I won't post here anymore.

I'd "guess" you are not being responded to simply because of the "Tone" of your posts. Seafire is as good a guy as frequents this place and has provided some excellent information for those of us that have been following his posts.

I doubt if anyone is "worried" about you posting here. It would be nice to get some wisdom from your "first-hand experience", but if you choose to disappear then it is your loss. It just seems you have mis-understood the intent of the Blue Dot Reduced Loads and the amount of experience the people have that are using them.

quote:

Hopefully I won't be reading about any accidents in the future. Good luck !

A big ole AMEN about "no accidents" and I wish the same for you as well.

I can use all the "luck" I can get, so I appreciate that too.
---

By the way, since you enjoy comical posts, hang around long enough, or stop back by on occasion to see some of "denton's doozies".

Best of luck to you....."Amiable" old Hot Core.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
Seafire
The fact that you cannot or will not explain how you begin with what you call a mid point load tells me you are not to be trusted. I have to laugh by the response of some of the other guys here as well. I wish the best of luck to you & the rest who are taking a risk using these loads that are being thrown about! Don't worry I won't post here anymore. Hopefully I won't be reading about any accidents in the future. Good luck !

Rick,

If your cartridge is 223 or larger, start with 4 to 6 grains and work up. Its really that simple. If its a lot bigger than a 223 (30-06 for example) start a little higher (8 to 10 grains).

Regards,
Kory

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
Seafire
The fact that you cannot or will not explain how you begin with what you call a mid point load tells me you are not to be trusted. I have to laugh by the response of some of the other guys here as well. I wish the best of luck to you & the rest who are taking a risk using these loads that are being thrown about! Don't worry I won't post here anymore. Hopefully I won't be reading about any accidents in the future. Good luck !

Jake;

Spoken like a true New Yorker....
while you are at it.. give the regards of all of we firearm owners to Hillary and Chuckie Schumer if you see them....

Sounds to me you are like the guy who is asking for the time.. but actually wants someone to tell him how to build a watch!

I share what info I have come across and work out with my fellow shooters.. I am not trying to pass myself off as some big buck ballistic lab...

YOU are getting a little accusational there, and since I share work that I have done, and do it for free.. I don't feel like putting up with criticism from someone who is being an armchair ballistician.. and is speaking from heresay instead of getting off the sofa and working with it....

I had some guys just my ass about another load info I had some development in.. and I was just answering a question someone had asked..

I got flamed all over the place.. One guy backed me up and he was flamed all over the place too...

so he gave out his phone number for anyone to call him about it and ask him questions anytime they wanted....

So a few of the critics called him only to find out that they were calling the Chief Ballisitican at Nosler Bullets....

a lot of people shut their mouths in a hurry after that... and quit flaming me for answering a question someone asked...

you don't want to use reduced loads.. then troll elsewhere... no one is holding the preverbial gun to your head...

sorry I am not the diplomat Hot Core is being here... but he is not being told that he can't be trusted....

my apologies to my fellow forum members for my tone.. this got under my collar a little too much this time....I try to help people off not spend my time here to be pissed on...developing that info is time consuming...unless someone develops something to refute it, I have no patience for critics sitting on the living room sofa...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
sorry I am not the diplomat Hot Core is being here... but he is not being told that he can't be trusted....

my apologies to my fellow forum members for my tone.. this got under my collar a little too much this time....I try to help people off not spend my time here to be pissed on...developing that info is time consuming...unless someone develops something to refute it, I have no patience for critics sitting on the living room sofa...

cheers
seafire

No apologies necessary. I think you are being much to nice to Rich.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Jake:

Jake;

Spoken like a true New Yorker....
while you are at it.. give the regards of all of we firearm owners to Hillary and Chuckie Schumer if you see them....


I share what info I have come across and work out with my fellow shooters.. I am not trying to pass myself off as some big buck ballistic lab...

YOU are getting a little accusational there, and since I share work that I have done, and do it for free.. I don't feel like putting up with criticism from someone who is being an armchair ballistician.. and is speaking from heresay instead of getting off the sofa and working with it....


So a few of the critics called him only to find out that they were calling the Chief Ballisitican at Nosler Bullets....


you don't want to use reduced loads.. then troll elsewhere... no one is holding the preverbial gun to your head...

sorry I am not the diplomat Hot Core is being here... but he is not being told that he can't be trusted....

my apologies to my fellow forum members for my tone.. this got under my collar a little too much this time....I try to help people off not spend my time here to be pissed on...developing that info is time consuming...unless someone develops something to refute it, I have no patience for critics sitting on the living room sofa...

cheers
seafire

OK Just one last response so you know where I am coming from. Yes I am a New Yorker & will say something if I think there is a problem.

I am no fan of Chuckie cheese or Queen Hillary either.

I was accusial in my tone on purpose. That's why I asked the Questions that I did. Also if you are in fact a Nosler Ballistican or something of that sort a simple statement of that would have gone a long way. Or perhaps based on a computer program, etc, etc. It would have ended there.

I am not a technician for a bullet company. I am not a scientist either. However I'm no sofa Quaterback either. I have seen the effects of a mistake in hadloading & I will call anyone putting out data without some kind of proof of what they are saying is safe. The only reason I came here & called you on it was because I was concerned that people are using data provided by you &/or felt they could just use Blue dot in any application that they see fit. That's why I called you on it. With that I am finished. In the end it's up to each individual to either use that data or not. I like my fingers, hands, eyes & life too much to gamble them on untested data for pressure. There are too many sources of tested reduced loads out there for that.

Rich:

If you are a fellow handloader, I ASSUME you have the common knowledge to work up a load...

Blue Dot has been tested by me, in each cartridge that I have posted... It has been correlated that the safe spot to start working up loads was based on data available for quicker powders that is available in load manuals... the only reason it was ever shared was based on the results that I gotten from Blue Dot in calibers from 223 to 444 and a bunch in between based on 308 sized cases, 30/06 sized cases, 57 mm European cases, and Winchester Magnum cases....

MY postings on this info have listed every chronograph velocity that I have gotten working up in one grain increments....

From questions by others to work out loads that I do not have calibers for testing... I did notice patterns in case sizes...

For instance a 243, 260, 308, 7/08 sized case seems to hit a point that max pressure is embraced at 60% of full capacity.. full capacity is determined by filling the case to the brim and measuring it.. I always point out people to work up and don't get near it if they don't know what they are doing.. I don't believe others need to be responsible for others irresponsibility...

I also pointed out that taller narrower cases like the 30/06, 270, 280 etc, do NOT meet the same criteria that a 308 sized case meets... Max pressure occurs at approximately 50% of max case volume...

I have tons of time invested, and expense testing this stuff out.. I have shared results with fellow forum members and have never charged a nickel for the results... I have never even taken any free bullets or powder or cartridge cases that have been offered to me to help off set the testing..
I have had forum members ask me about a cartridge and bullet combination that I had not done yet, so I assembled what they were asking for and went out and tested that and posted it for everyone to see....

I have let people know where I found pressure signs at, and where I recommended what I considered a safe maximum, below where I found pressure signs....

The whole work with Blue Dot has been based on the fact that it give highly reduced recoil.. has proven to be very very accurate in a wide variety of cartridges.... has given enought velocity that it can be used for hunting as opposed to other powders that would not produce enough velocity for jacketed bullets to properly open...

YOUR accusations come across to me as by some Ambulance Chasing Attorney who is just looking for someone to sue so that he can cash in on some big money....

I am not a Ballistician for Nosler... however I have had two different people who do that work for them look at my data and were pretty impressed with what I had done... and how I developed it.. If that adds credence in your book fine, If it doesn't, fine also...

This work is shared and shared for free with fellow shooters on this forum...Getting criticized by someone with inferences that my info is going to do nothing but end up hurting someone RACKS UP to me as about the same as those people in New Orleans getting taken to Texas after Katrina and then bitching that the quality of help they receive from others isn't good enough.... or they want a meal at McDonald's instead of a ham sandwich....

This isn't based on some computer geeks theoretical algorythyms or hooked up to tons of computers with transducers etc.. It is done the old fashion way.. trial and error.. I share the results that are not errors and let those know where the error points are...

If I have to explain to someone how to work up loads safely or which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of.. then I have to explain the obvious.. then that person deserves to be sitting on the couch being an arm chair quarterback.. and I just need to learn who to put my mute button on toward is all....

seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Jake:
I was concerned that people are using data provided by you &/or felt they could just use Blue dot in any application that they see fit.

They can if they are mature, intelligent, experienced handloaders.

When I first started seeing Seafire's Blue Dot Loadings I too thought he was some kind of dangerous fruit cake.I fallowed his postings , however, and soon learned he was experimenting in a controlled manner. Some of his original therories were not well founded ,such as the 60% rule, but he always made a safe approach to what was considered a maximum load and was man enough to publicly correct his concepts. No he did not have any soffisticated pressure test equipment but neither do the guys who supercede the max. listed in their cook books. Sea fire Is safer than these guys or the one who invented Nitroglyserine.

Can a double load be thrown? Yes we've seen that. But it is less likely than throwing a double load when loading pistol ammo and watching Television, or not.I have seen that happen more than once. At least with the rifle you got a lot more steel that will protect you. Seafire has one friend that tests rifles to destruction quit often, knows what it's all about and shares his results and data.

If you are going to pontificate in passing judgement on Seafire why don't you dig out all his work in the archives on blue dot and such. Than at least you will come away with a more enlightened understanding of what this guy is all about and trying to accomplish.

Buy the way, I've seen loading data published in LOADING MANUALS that completely surpasses what is accepted as safe pressures so fallowing their recommendations can be less safe than the Blue Dot experimental data. Rich, try to use an open mind in this evaluation. poor roger

Seafire,

I want to try BD, but I am scared. In my experience, small charges of fast powder may be prone to detonation. I once wanted to play with very slow 357 loads, so I loaded-up some 148gr. HBWC's and 1.5-3grs. of Bullseye in 357 brass, seated flush with the case mouth.

I BLEW HALF THE PRIMERS!!!

CASES LOOKED LIKE NEW---NO SOOT AT ALL!!!

This confirmeed that my light charges of BE detonated. Fortunately, the gun held.

My concern with your loads is the same. You said the loads are not position sensitive. I disagree. All uncompressed loads are position sensitive, at least to some degree. My primary concern is if I fire a light BD load where all of the powder is evenly dispersed on the bottom of the case/chamber and the primer ignites all of the powder at once, IT MAY DETONATE. Being that we are working with roughly 20 grains, the effect will be more pronounced than 2 grains of BE.

Have you contacted Alliant to discuss this issue? What were their thoughts?

Not trying to bash you, but your testing is very limited and w/o pressure info.

Ralph

BTW, I bought a can of BD.