I was watching "Personal Defense TV" on the OLN the other nite, and one of the 'defense experts" made the statement that you shoud never use handloads in your carry gun. His reasoning was that, God forbid, you had to put someone down, the fact that you handloaded the ammo could jeopardize your defense. I have since heard several other people say the same thing. What are your opinions on this. It seems to me that if you are justified in using deadly force to defend yourself, it shouldn't matter if you use a NAA mini revolver or a GE mini-gun. After all, you were justified. But then what do I know? ~ Marc

I think the issue is that the prosecutor, against you, could argue that you were out looking to take someone's life with you "uber-deadly" custom handloaded ammunition designed to "kill".

It depends on who you talk to but I look at it this way; there are sooo many things that are going to have to go your way for you to survive a court case if you are involved in a shooting. I figure anything I can do to reduce those problems I am going to do. There is really no reason to carry handloaded ammo, when there are so many good factory rounds.
I carry factory & use handloaded equiv. loads for practice. You have to make the decision for yourself. Practice like you play.

have asked this very question to a local prosecutor and a couple of trial attorneys and they looked at me like I was from another planet.
First off, who knows it was a reloaded round - are you going to stand up in court or volunteer to the police that "Oh yeah, I load my own and that particular round was super dooper deadly" ?
If so, perhaps you are stupid enough to deserve the added scrutiny.
How does the local police department identify reloaded ammunition?
Want to bet that once you turn over the weapon to them after the shooting that they don't look any further.
Why, you already admitted to the shooting and there is no need to further trace the gun or shooter.
Besides, seeing what just went down in NYC with a police shoot, does not seem to matter if it is justified or not if you shoot a protected species.
There will be a whole laundry list of things to worry about if you pull the trigger and I have to believe that what ammo you used is WAAAAY down on that list.
Before you get a whole lot of folks spouting what they have read elsewhere, get a lawyer or former homicide LEO to chime in with real experience.
Just my 2 cents.

The problem is probably not so much the criminal trial but the civil trial that follows it as the family of the deceased try to cash in on the legal lottery. If you think that a plaintif's attorney won't visit the question of ammunition source/type, you're a bit naive.

The purpose of an attorney is to put on a convincing show for the jury and not really to get justice. Any potential jurors that have any first hand knowledge of bullets, ballistics, reloading, etc. will probably not be allowed to serve on the jury. In fact, a percentage of persons on the jury will be the retired and persons not smart enough to get out of jury duty. You will need to convince these jurors that your ammo was OK.

You're exactly right. It is never about who is right or wrong but which attorney puts on the best show. Me, I'll stay w/ factory, again, there is little to no advantage to using a handload. If there issomeone please enlighten me why?

Shoot...easy peasy...Double 00 buckshot in a pump...hearing the "Shick Shink" of a pump in the dark could make a brave man fill his shorts!!

I know of several police departments that issue Federal Hydra-Shoks. They are available to the public, labeled as "personal defence"

Remember, you are shooting to stop the attack, not to kill, what better to carry to defend yourself, than personal defence loads?

In a civil trial, the plantifs lawyer will try and portray a cast swc target handload as a devastating round designed to create horrific wounds.

In my opinion, it's just one less thing you might have to worry about at a stressfull time

please...
cite for me one case in the last 25 years when the type of bullet used was in ANY way a determining factor in either a Justifiable verdict or a following civil case.
excuse me if i dont hold my breath.

AND

quote:

Originally posted by Tombo:
Shoot...easy peasy...Double 00 buckshot in a pump...hearing the "Shick Shink" of a pump in the dark could make a brave man fill his shorts!!

people who would be sane enough to understand what that sound means are also sane enough not to enter an occupied dwelling at night here in the US.
the only tactical advantage you have at 0200 naked and half asleep is your location.
you want to give that away by racking a pump gun?
thats amature gun shop commando BS.
I have over 80 hours MOUT and im not about to go house clearing with a smoothbore 18".

quote:

Originally posted by Tombo:
Shoot...easy peasy...Double 00 buckshot in a pump...hearing the "Shick Shink" of a pump in the dark could make a brave man fill his shorts!!

I've never swallowed that one. Like KS said, the BG in your house at 0:dark30 isn't shitting his pants. I like the SG for barracading in but checking noises, the pistol wins that one IMO.

I have been banned more than three times from other forums for taking issue with Ayoob on this.

I don't believe in global warming, UFOs, or only carrying factory ammo.

Those who want to believe in global warming, UFOs, or only carrying factory ammo, can believe all you want.

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

Switch to decaf tnekk.

quote:

Shoot...easy peasy...Double 00 buckshot in a pump...hearing the "Shick Shink" of a pump in the dark could make a brave man fill his shorts!!

Housebrakers are often loaded on meth........

I only carry factory ammo. I have never had a malfunction with a factory round.

When "handloading", I have made more than my share of squibs, double charges, etc.

I'm probably the only handloader that has made any of these mistakes.

I generally carry what the local LEO does. For obvious reasons.

I believe I do recall a civil case where the type of ammo (handloaded vis. factory) was a point of contention. I testified at that case.

I get hired as an expert for civil trials every now and then, and have worked both sides of cases. Fortunately none of them involved a hole in anyone's liver. Two of the first questions I always ask are:

1. Any trigger mods?
2. Handloads?

I'll post some pictures tomorrow where both items were integral to the procedings.

The other day I watched a tv program about a shooting .The jury ruled it was NOT self defense. They interviewed some of the jurors - one of them made her decision based on the fact that he used hollow points ! This is the real problem , jurors who no nothing about guns except what they see in the movies or the distorted 11 o'clock news !! I would have asked her why policemen use hollow points ,are they all murderers ??

i use fasctory ammo as well...
but ONLY www.rbcd.net

I only use factory ammo in my carry gun. Usually my Taurus 85UL w/Magtech +P HP's. I think its always better to be safe than sorry, and with today's ignorant jury pools and anti-gun media, it only takes one miscalculation to be spending the rest of your life sharing a cell with the proverbial "Tyrone". I posted the topic because I wanted to hear everyone else's opinions on the issue. Thanks for the response. ~Marc

my opinion is this...
If it gets to the point that i am going to kill another human being then i dont give a fuck what happens after. I am either saving my life or the life of my family.

Massod Ayoob (a personal defense trainer, writer for Ammerican Handgunner and recognized expert witness) has always said not to use handloaded ammo. He finally did write up a case that handloaded ammo caused problems for the defense - because the handload didn't match industry standard loads (it as a low-recoil 357 IIRC) the police ballistics people said the defendant was lying about how close the attacker was when the defendant fired. There were much more powder burns etc when the police test fired standard 357 loads at that distance, and the police never bothered to test the handloaded ammo of the defendant. Ayoob said that this was the reason the guy was prosecuted, because the prosecutor was told the attacker was much farther away and the "evidence" proved the shooter was lying about what happened.
A lot of people have used the example of "evil ultra-fatal handloads" being presented to an ignorant jury as a reason not to use handloads, but I've never seen a documented case where it hurt the shooter.

quote:

If it gets to the point that i am going to kill another human being then i dont give a fuck what happens after. I am either saving my life or the life of my family.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel

glad to...
the whole thing is convoluted by gunshop commandos that have ZERO training and no grasp on reality.
they think ther are going tot awaken at 0230 from a noise and graba shotgun RACK the slide and go searching through the house.
IF they used any common sense they would realize that home defense means just that... defending.
No rampaging through the house w/ a shotgun trying to clear an 8'x4' hall bathroom.
Furthermore the use of handloads is a NONISSUE!
period.
"The reason there were handloads in that pistol ? I was going to the range the next day to target practice. You didnt expect me to reload my pistol while a burglers in my home do you?"See this IDEA of a dedicated home defense gun has you guys wrapped around the axel. I'll bet quite a few actually have a spot on the night stand or the to drawr or a holster bolted to the bedframe for their glock 21night sights w/ M6 laser flashlight combo and a spare mag full of corbons. THATS whats gonna eat your lunch not the bullets in the gun.
Think about the situation without trying to be Billy Bad Ass. No one will be impressed.
The Last thing i want to do is shoot someone, in my home, with my kids and wife present.
#1 You want to use a shotgun? STUPID! weres that buckshot headed? into a kids room down the hall?
#2 you want to use STD hollowpoints? same problem were they going AFTER?
look at www.rbcd.net . that is the ONLY ammo i use in my pistols.

Why Trigger mods?



1. Any trigger mods?
2. Handloads?

I'll post some pictures tomorrow where both items were integral to the procedings.[/QUOTE]

NON ISSUE!
i going to grab the first gun i can lay my hands on.
If its an ISPC race gun then thats what im grabbing.
If its a colt python w/ 8" BBL, thats what im grabbing.
Its when you set up this "DEFENSE ONLY PISTOL" that your getting into trouble.
Do you think a DA is gonna try and push the shooting of a burglar who is killed by a home owner w/ a 30-06 rifle in the middle of Nov.?
NO!
because the homeowner should be smart enough to say "I had the rifle out to go hunting and it was the first thing i grabbed"
Likewise...
"I was goint to the range to shoot with my XYZ pistol loaded with MY XYZ loads and it was the first thing i grabbed"
You guys are getting tight in the pants over nothing.
How many people have shot intuders in thier homes?
How many were prosecuted?
how many were found guilty or negligent?
you are talking about a fraction of a percentage.
instead of getting wrapped up about what gun to use perhaps you should spend the same energy in learning how to properly defend a home without shooting yourself or one of you loved ones or you drunk brother in law who was afraid to go home so crashed on your couch.
Its amazing. how many of you would climb into a formula one car and take it to the limit on a real course without training? But you think by virtue of the fact that your a man and you own guns that your prepared to go sneakin through the house looking for an intruder. thats a joke.
FOCUS ON TRAINING!
A man who knows what he's doing can protect his home with a 38 and 5 wadcutters.
an untrained person couldnt do it properly with a howitzer and a bagfull of rabbits feet.

let me add this...
I have 3 girls and a wife. If i have to go to the grave or the gallows to ensure that one of them isnt rapped and stabbed to death by some shitbag meth head then lead the way. thats what it will be.
but dont try to convine me that ammo or trigger mods are an issue when the best you can come up with is one specific case, maybe not even that.

When I lived in a suburb of Chicago, my insurance agent told me that if I had to use a gun in self defense of my home, use my shotgun with bird shot. Why? Because then you can say "Hey, I was heading to the trap range tommorow, and it was all I had".

Granted, in Chicago that probably wouldn't have been much help, but it makes sense. If you have a "home defense" rig, you are in trouble if you have to go to court and explain it.

Kstephens, your point is well made. My life for my families is an easy choice. But it is total BS when you even need to worry about this crap. People are so friggin sue happy that the only way to really save yourself from civil court is to kill any intruder and make sure they are in the house before the police get there. Your word against his then and he aint sayin much. His momma may try to sue but he wont.

There was a story a quite a few years ago about some guy jumping in the back of a car being driven by a mother with her daughter in the back. He started to molest the daughter in back seat so the mother rammed the car into a wall. She and her daughter had belts on and got only minor injuries but the guy was hurt very seriously. He sued the mom and won. Thats the BS of our justice system.

Back to home defense, there are numerous books as well as classes that go step by step on how to secure and defend your home. What works for cover, how to set up a plan your family can follow if an intruder comes in and so on and so on. I know people who buy a pistol to defend their house and have yet to fire the dang thing. Or it sits in the closet and hasnt been cleaned or oiled in years.
Enough from me hehe
later

quote:

instead of getting wrapped up about what gun to use perhaps you should spend the same energy in learning how to properly defend a home without shooting yourself or one of you loved ones or you drunk brother in law who was afraid to go home so crashed on your couch.
Its amazing. how many of you would climb into a formula one car and take it to the limit on a real course without training? But you think by virtue of the fact that your a man and you own guns that your prepared to go sneakin through the house looking for an intruder. thats a joke.
FOCUS ON TRAINING!

We should probably just hide under the bed and wait for you and your training to burst in and save our drunken, 12 toed asses and our harelipped children from the bad men. ~Marc

Well.....here goes.

I could write pages on this issue, but let me simply offer this.

I am a retired police officer from a very large city. My 33 years experience includes homicide investigations, swat team commander, internal affairs chief investigator, and a few other postings that have given me "special knowledge" in several subjects.

I have been a so-called "expert" witness both in deposition and in actual courtroom testimony at all levels of the criminal and civil justice systems many times.

I was a full-time law enforcment officer, not a reserve. And I do not write magazine articles.

I do not give advice. I only relate from personal experience and from the results of my research.

I can tell you with certainty that in the context of this question, the type of ammunition used in a deadly force incident WILL ABSOLUTELY be an issue in ANY CREDIBLE LEGAL VENUE IN THE UNITED STATES. As will the type of weapon used, and any and all accessories attendant to that weapon, such as extended magazines, sighting systems, adjusted triggers, etc. That's just the way it is.

We can talk all we want about tactics, guns, ammo, shoot/don't shoot, politics, or whatever. The debate will always be there. The bottom line is that if you use deadly force in our society today, you will not only have to explain why you used such force, but also the type of force you used, as well as the instrument of that force.

And here's another court room truism relevant to this discussion some may want to consider. A long-time gun owner/shooter/handloader generally has a MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME JUSTIFYING his/her decision to use deadly force than does the retired businessman who grabs his rarely used pheasant gun and confronts a threat. And that, too, is just the way it is.

I am never far from a personal defense or home defense weapon. They are all loaded with factory ammo.

Regards. Tom

There it is folks. You can't argue with those facts and experience. I know I am going to heed those words...closely. Tom, thanks for the advi...I mean research.

I have been in conversation with the leading firearms expert in the US, Ron Scott.
please note that these are his words on the subject e-mailed to me this afternoon.
#1 "I could state in general terms that handloaded ammunition in a criminal case is probably not so important as is the pulling of the trigger since it is the firearm which is the tool for sending projectiles on their way to an intended or unintended target, or even worse to something beyond it."
#2 It is my opinion that so long as you are not using ammunition prohibited by law, be it local, national, or international, then the type of ammunition used is irrelevant. The use of deadly force is predicated on what a reasonable person would have done in like circumstances when under threat of serious bodily injury or death to himself or another person.

here is a list of his credentials.
you be the judge on weather he knows his shit well enough to make an opinion.
http://www.azballistics.com/default.php



"We should probably just hide under the bed and wait for you and your training to burst in and save our drunken, 12 toed asses and our harelipped children from the bad men. ~Marc"

im in Spartanburg, lets get together and you can judge for yourself.
that doesnt read the way i mean it. i reread what i have posted and i see were you are misunderstanding me. im not trying to be a braggard. i am saying that i have a little experience in room clearing and am not some loudmouth talking out of my ass about something i have never done. i am a former USMC MP with SRT classification. I have over 80 hour MOUT w/ 3rd MARDIV and advanced training on the civilian side. I am a former county LEO and have carried concealed since i was 21. On the civilian side I have been in two armed confentations and i dont have any more holes than god gave me.
But, that aside, i am always loking for new shooting buddies if your in the upstate PM me.

I am a former Marine and a veteran of Iraqi freedom. I can teel you that if anyone comes into my hose uninvited I am going to use deadly force. I sleep with a Glock 17 by my bed and all I have in the house is reloads. I happen to use the same load for all of my nine mills. I have extensive hand to hand training in and out of the Marines. So if I kill some scum bag in my home with a pistol or my bare hands am I not going to be prosecuted the same? Now if I use my pistol it may be considerd premeditated. I dont care. Dead is dead, and my family is safe.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I only carry factory ammo. I have never had a malfunction with a factory round.

When "handloading", I have made more than my share of squibs, double charges, etc.

I'm probably the only handloader that has made any of these mistakes.

I'm the exact opposite, the only failures I've ever had have been with factory ammo. I've had about 10 misfires, all with factory stuff.

I've never had a failure with my handloads. I did have a 2 second hangfire with one rifle load using CCI primers, so I no longer use CCI.

I trust my handloads about 100 times more than I do factory ammo. My quality control is better than a factory's.

I'm with Boltman, I've had numerous factory ammo feed jambs and misfires. My handloads have never jambed or misfired. I really like the 185gn Barnes XPB's for my 1911's. They feed like a dream and I have never had a jamb.

let me cite an example.
A man living in NJ were he cannot legally use hollowpoints has a 9mm with hardball factory ammo in his apartment for defense. If/ he shoots someone the bullet will more likely than not pass through and on into an adjacent apartment possibly striking someone else.
but what if he used a soft lead flat nose bullet handloaded to a min velocity to function the pistols action.
while the effectivness of that round may be diminished he would certainly decrease the likleyhood of injuring a sleeping infant 3 walls away and therby save himself millions in a civil case and a lifetime of guilt.
would a DA use that against him?
the truth of the matter is that for pretty much every thing you can argue for someone can argue against.
let the chips, and the bad guys, fall were they may. I'll let my lawyer sort out the details.

i keep a couple of speed loaders with factory 158 gr jsps in the gun safe with my model 27 for the same reason lots of guys here have mentioned........ i would add that it's not the best to have some shot up perp making you a criminal in the court...... these days it's really hard to know how a jury might go on such things...........

KSTEPHENS,
I don't have the Private Message deal figured out yet, but I am in Spartanburg as well. ~Marc

small world...
you probably know me.

Kellet
What lodge?

Fellow jury members, this may on the face look like a defensive shooting, but when we consider evidence that he contributed to a gun forum where he espoused to be a member of the "factory ammo only" cult, we see the motive for the killing.
I will now read a passage from the graphic, gratuitous, self defense book at the core of this cult, "...".
As you can tell, this is like porno to a pervert. The defendant was planning all along to find a victim for his "factory ammo only" fantasy.

Besides his internet activity, we have his credit card records showing that he paid for a self defense book and training.


Again, this may look like a self defense shooting, but being a member of the "factory ammo only" cult is like being a member of the Man Boy Love Association and possessing child pornography. This man is guilty of murder, and the motivation is the "factory only ammo" fantasy.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:


Again, this may look like a self defense shooting, but being a member of the "factory ammo only" cult is like being a member of the Man Boy Love Association and possessing child pornography. This man is guilty of murder, and the motivation is the "factory only ammo" fantasy.

VERY INTERESTING und schmart too roger

Gents:

Interesting thread, and very good contributions by all.

I think we agree that one can develop handloads far more potent than factory ammo. And I think we'll also agree no one should hesitate to use whatever force is necessary to defend himself against a credible threat. Well and good.

But it's equally important to understand what a huge legal challenge this will be, regardless of the facts. As many of you have correctly pointed out, it will be the reason(s)for which one uses deadly force in the first place that will be the most important issue. All else follows.

But....the legal system is not a sure bet, no matter the pattern of fact. So why make it more difficult than it has to be?

Consider this. In a deadly force situation, you are the victim. Regardless of how you feel about that concept, that is what will get you through the legal ordeal. You MUST subordinate your personal beliefs, your experience, your knowledge, your courage, and your ego. You are the victim.

The good news is that in many venues across the country the laws governing self defense are softening and it's becoming easier for a citizen to justify the use of deadly force. Make sure you know what the laws in your state provide.

Regards......Tom

Shoot, shovel and shut up. The more you say the more trouble you'll be. Start talking about training classes to make you better and the prosecutor will make it appear you were out looking for a situation to use your skills.

Play the victim role to the hilt, act contrite, cry, sniffle, be apologetic, act like a milquetoast.

Unless you open your big mouth or "the bullet girl from CSI Miami investgates your case" the difference will never be known.To my knowledge we don't have any bullets available to us that contain depleted uranium particles to make our handloads any more powerful than factory rounds, the only reason we use them is because we mass produce them and they are also what we practice with. As far as handloads being absolutely more powerful, Horse Hockey.

Best wishes, Bill

Guys, I can add a little fire to this tale. Back in the ancient 1960s there was a popular "defense load" for the .38 Special where you used a 148 grain inverted hollow based wadcutter with a gas check. I forget the charge of Unique, but I did see the results of the round being fired at feral dogs, gruesome to say the least. We loaded quite a lot of this ammo for our friends in certain Navy "spook" squadrons who flew "where no one has gone before" and were not worried about prosecution, just their lives. However, I wouldn't think of loading my revolver with inverted wadcutters today because of the liberal lawyers and rampant anti-gunner sympathies. Alas, the good old days are gone, then, we did not have +P and +P+ ammo back then either!
LLS