Hi Doc,
All the given advice is good..the ABC of Reloading & Lyman manuals are more than enough & to STUDY, at this stage, & later u may also aquire an advanced book on reloading teq's, as well..your BEST advice, knowledge & teqn's are going to come from the manuals & from practice..
Without prescribing, IMHO, let me then state some important basics regardig my personal situation when reloading my f/arms, as an example applying to my own specific circ's:

1. I am SERIOUS about reloading..SUPER SERIOUS, realizing it can so easily/suddenly become a deadly hobby, if I'm not
2. I study the info in the manuals AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE, especialy re my specific requirements re a spec load..when in doubt I RTFM..asap
3. I don;t smoke & NEVER use alch before/during reloading..NOT EVEN ONE SIP BEER..I start a session & go through to the end, never leaving the other half of the reload session for tomorrow/later
4. I reload behind closed/locked doors & don't allow ANY distractions..wife realizes this all to well, as well
5. I only reload ONE caliber/load at a time, setting up equipmt only re that specific cal/load,& completing the task, etc
6. I record ALL load-data/equim-data that I done..PROPER recordkeeping is MOST IMPORTANT, especially re back referencing, checking & compiling new loads..& of course regarding any info re any future f/arms applications,as well..if necesary
7. I spend time on brass prep, & over years I found this the ONE factor that deftnly results in consistent smaller grps..forsure
8. I weigh bullets/brass as well, looking for consistency..on the whole this is the test, CONSISTENT SAFE RELOADS
9. I tread carefully re assembling reloads, consentrating SOLELY on what I do at any one moment, AND NEVER WORKING with more than ONE specific make/tin of powder on the bench at any one time
10.I ALWAYS regard each rifle as an INDIVIDUAL one, ie, reloading for that specific rifle on an indvidual basis..no 2 rifles ever are the same regarding reloads..for xmple, each rifle's chamber dimensions differ(some greatly) & therefor each requires individually taylored reloads..i o w also, I don't allow any other similar rifle to shoot my spec rifles specific reloads.. & not even in hunting field
11.I usually don't reload for other peoples rifles, but I won't have any problems in showing them the ropes re reloading teq's, etc
12.I hop each powder-load by hand, then weighing it carefully on the scale to just under the required weight, & then I tricle-charge it to the EXACT weight-load required..powderloads are also EXACTLY CONSISTANT in weight then(I don't rely on my powder-hopper to throw the charges as it is generally not all that accurate, unlike the newer models)
13.I then seat the bullet in a Redding Micro-seater die to an OAL which is EXACTLY the same as all the other rounds..EXACT CONSISTENCY is the keyword, again
14.I don't take ANY shortcuts, as this may/may not be fatal sometimes, or = a probable cause for inaccuracies/inconsistencies
15.I NEVER use other peoples reloads in my rifles, not even in hunting field

Further, my equipm is fairly simple & most of it dates back from +- 30 years ago(but still operates 100%):

RCBS 10/10 mechanical scale, Lyman Orange Press, Lee TurretPress(4 hole), Lee Hand Press(for use at range sometimes), RCBS Hand-primer, Lyman Oramge Powder Hopper, Lyman DIGITAL & mechanical Vernier/calipers, Lee brass-grease, Lyman Brass Trimmer(handmodel), RCBS dies(FL & neck-size) in .338wm, 7x64, & 7x57, Redding Micro-seater die, 3 x 50 hole brass holders, LEE & RCBS Chamfertools, Lee Primerpocket-cleaner, Lyman Neck-turner, & various etc's
(personally, IMHO, I don't believe in using electr scales as these are sometimes unreliable/finicky in my view, especially regarding other electrical currents/charges/influences at the workbench,..my mech scale is 100% consistent & I don't fiddle if it's not necesary)

The results of these principals/equipm are quite apparent from all the good grps @ the range..& meat/biltong in the house,for years & years now, for sure..& reloading then becomes a highly satisfying hobby in it's own right, respectfully
So, HAPPY RELOADING.. WELCOME to the ranks..

& KEEP ASKING when in doubt !!!

ap

Doc--Choose your bullet weight. Then go to manualS (notice I capitalized the "S")and pick a powder. Then start at the lowest and I load groups of either 3 or 5 and work up in 1/2 grain increments. Shoot the rounds and be watching for signs of over pressure and grouping. Any signs of over pressure--STOP. When all done you should have a spot where the group is smaller. In that area load rounds in 1/10th grain increments to find smallest group.

I don't see any posts from Doc in a couple of days, I wonder if he is still checking in?
At any rate, I am concerned with some of what I read from our friend Doc. I am glad to read the advice that some of our more seasoned membership is posting. Booze and bullets don't mix.
...And Doc, if you ARE still reading, listen to these guys, they do know what they are talking about.

Hey guys, been a busy few days. That happens out here, so unless you don't hear from me for over 2 weeks, I'll be around.
I am reading ALL of the advice, and once I get home, believe me, I will be going back through this thread and taking MASSIVE notes, and probably asking some of the same questions just to make sure I've got the info right.
Ok, so good place to start. I have 2 rifles. So i need a binder for each rifle. develop individual loads for each rifle, record all data, and work each load up a bit at a time to attain tightest groups. I got that right so far? And I was already planning on only loading one caliber at a time.
Adriaan, thank you for the advice. more of exactly what i was looking for, guess I'm just not very good at asking the right questions.

HI Doc,

U r very welcome to ask..I & others will be glad to help if we can..
Remember tht YOU r going to fire YO OWN reloads, therefor u must be aware of yo own safety & the safety of yo reloads, ALWAYS..
Indeed,& realistically, each time tht u reload u r building a small BUT POWERFUL BOMB, which is detonated when u pull tht trigger, & u have a def resp towards yoself & others..
We'll help as far as possible, just ask..

But, when the reload-bug really bites u it just keeps on gettin better & better..yo shootin(as u r tuning the rounds for yo partclr rifle), yo accuracy, yo range-sessions, especially yo hunting, & yo pocket also saves a LOT of $$ as well re expensive fac ammo..especially these days..

Have fun..

ap

Good to see that you are still up and about Doc, I was beginning to wonder about you!
Sounds like you have a good starting plan so far. I too keep extensive records on both my rifles and loading as well. For the rifles, you might want to record how many rounds you run through it, which loads run the best and what's most accurate. My binder for reloading has everything from information on the conversion of measurements from fractions to decimal, differing powder companies and their powders and burn rates, bullet manufactures and what they offer and the specs on their products and all the papers that came with my press and tools Ect. One of these days those papers may come in handy, if they ever need work or something.
Additionally, in the beginning I kept extensive notes on my reloading process. I kept notes on what worked the best for me, process wise and anything else that seemed information.
When actually shooting, I keep notes on a form that I made up myself. It is similar to a sniper's data book and the Army has a form that does the same thing, but I forget the form number. I will research and find it, if you like.
You can buy these "sniper's data books" from Voodoo Tactical and there are likely others, but as I say, I made my own. I keep data on which rifle I am using, time, temp, light conditions, humidity, barometric pressure and so on. Then while I am shooting, I take notes on poa v/s poi, doping the scope, re record the poi, adjust scope if needed. I also record the accuracy of that session, including group sizes.
On the same page, I have recorded info about the loads I'm shooting. For example: "55 gn Hornady V-max in a Winchester brass case that is used 3 times, trimmed to 1.902 and primed with CCI BR-2 primers and loaded with 34gn Varget, case overall length 2.067(with Hornady bullet comparator)I also record the temp, humidity and barometric pressure when I load that particular lot. What you record is up to you and depends on how technical or in depth you want to be.
All of this work pays off, as I can go back and see what works and what don't, at a glance. I can pick out a "formula", load it up and have some reasonable expectations of how it will perform.
I suggest making a couple of these as you may want to alter them to add or remove some particular info to better serve your individual needs.
For my two cents worth, keeping good, accurate records is well worth the time and effort it takes to complete a form. It is a potential money saver too!
As this post is getting rather lengthy, I will finish up by adding that it may be beneficial to search the threads I have started as a beginner.(which I still am) I asked many of the same questions that are undoubtedly on your mind. If not, it may still be worth a read for it's entertainment value.
Keep asking questions, I will assist as much as I can. As they say, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.
Keep your head down over there. My thoughts and prayers, and those of my family go with you always.
All of this info allows me to go back and at a glance I can see

I was going to mention something else, but got carried away and forgot all about it!
Somebody mentioned "The ABC's of Reloading". I received, as a gift, a copy of the latest edition about 6 months after I started loading. I wish that I had that book earlier when I started out! It has a lot of good information for beginners, though old pros would likely be disappointed, no matter what the cover advertises.
In an earlier post, someone had commented that you might want to invest in any edition, previous to the newest. I have never had the opportunity to read the older versions, but I would recommend the new one for guys getting their start.
In addition to a step by step breakdown to reloading rifle, pistol and shotsells, it is chock full of history and the "how come" and "what if's" involved in loading. It is further a very safety conscious book as well.
So; I can't speak for the older editions, but the newest (9th edition??) could be very helpful in understanding the foundations of shooting and reloading. Just don't expect too much.

Jaybald, Thanks for all the info. I'm starting the log books now. If you could find that sniper book, that would be great. I'm also gonna hook in with our Marine Snipers out here, and see what they use for a log book. I'm pretty sure that i still have all the casings i have put through my 308 in the last 2 years, so I've got a starting point.
I just ordered the ABC's 8th Edition, should be at my house in about a week, so I wll have it when I get home.
I fully plan on cross-decking as much info from as many sources as I can, then start a load design from there. Figure I will start off with 4 different types of powder, and 4 different types of bullets, and go from there. figure about a year of loading and shooting to find a set up that works for me.

Adriaan, again, thank you for all your advice as well, I'm taking alot of notes.
And thank you to EVERYONE for all of your advice as well. i am paying attention.

Does anyone have a good advice on .308 bullets, Primers, and powder?

Doc--As you know there are a wide range of bullet weights available for the .308. To me that is somewhat a moot point. I like the 150 grain bullets and that's what I use. For example, 110 grain bullets don't make it a varmint rig. Still have the recoil and blast--so for varmints I use a varmint rifle. To me it would be a nightmare having to sight in every time I changed bullet weights and trying to remember which one it is sighted for. Because I know 150's will be what I use, I go to my manuals and try to figure the best powder for them. I gave my grandson a .308 in Win 88 and it has proved to be excellent for him. A bunch of whitetails, bobcat, axis deer all with 150 grainers.

Ray 4064 either flavor is a pretty good powder for the 308 with that bullet weight you prefer.

Joe--I do use 4064 in my 30-06. I wasn't asking as a question--just giving an example. I use 4831 in .243.

I was thinking about starting off with IMR 4895 behind a 150-170 grain ball round. Gonna use factory winchesters for my initail Zero, and go from there.

You know, just about every book I have read on reloading says that a good way to learn about reloading is to start out duplicating factory loads.
This will familiarize you with the actual processes used in reloading and the tools and techniques. As we have read earlier, that factory load might not technically be the absolute most accurate, but finding out what is accurate is what makes loading so much fun!
What other hobby can you take up that let's you shoot your own products? It's like a self supporting (or self enabling) addiction!
I think you will learn lots of interesting stuff from The ABCs. I'm not ashamed to admit that I did.

quote:

Originally posted by jaybald1:
You know, just about every book I have read on reloading says that a good way to learn about reloading is to start out duplicating factory loads.
This will familiarize you with the actual processes used in reloading and the tools and techniques. As we have read earlier, that factory load might not technically be the absolute most accurate, but finding out what is accurate is what makes loading so much fun!
What other hobby can you take up that let's you shoot your own products? It's like a self supporting (or self enabling) addiction!
I think you will learn lots of interesting stuff from The ABCs. I'm not ashamed to admit that I did.

and I'm looking forward to getting started on it when I get back. It's actually starting to drive me nuts, being stuck over here. Can't wait to get home. Taking my nephew with me on the first trip to Bass Pro to get a small stock of supplies to start with. Then we're gonna do some stuff that, hopefully, mom won't find out about.....LOL Gotta love Myrtle Beach

quote:

1. I am SERIOUS about reloading..SUPER SERIOUS, realizing it can so easily/suddenly become a deadly hobby, if I'm not
2. I study the info in the manuals AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE, especialy re my specific requirements re a spec load..when in doubt I RTFM..asap
3. I don;t smoke & NEVER use alch before/during reloading..NOT EVEN ONE SIP BEER..I start a session & go through to the end, never leaving the other half of the reload session for tomorrow/later
4. I reload behind closed/locked doors & don't allow ANY distractions..wife realizes this all to well, as well
5. I only reload ONE caliber/load at a time, setting up equipmt only re that specific cal/load,& completing the task, etc
6. I record ALL load-data/equim-data that I done..PROPER recordkeeping is MOST IMPORTANT, especially re back referencing, checking & compiling new loads..& of course regarding any info re any future f/arms applications,as well..if necesary
7. I spend time on brass prep, & over years I found this the ONE factor that deftnly results in consistent smaller grps..forsure
8. I weigh bullets/brass as well, looking for consistency..on the whole this is the test, CONSISTENT SAFE RELOADS
9. I tread carefully re assembling reloads, consentrating SOLELY on what I do at any one moment, AND NEVER WORKING with more than ONE specific make/tin of powder on the bench at any one time
10.I ALWAYS regard each rifle as an INDIVIDUAL one, ie, reloading for that specific rifle on an indvidual basis..no 2 rifles ever are the same regarding reloads..for xmple, each rifle's chamber dimensions differ(some greatly) & therefor each requires individually taylored reloads..i o w also, I don't allow any other similar rifle to shoot my spec rifles specific reloads.. & not even in hunting field
11.I usually don't reload for other peoples rifles, but I won't have any problems in showing them the ropes re reloading teq's, etc
12.I hop each powder-load by hand, then weighing it carefully on the scale to just under the required weight, & then I tricle-charge it to the EXACT weight-load required..powderloads are also EXACTLY CONSISTANT in weight then(I don't rely on my powder-hopper to throw the charges as it is generally not all that accurate, unlike the newer models)
13.I then seat the bullet in a Redding Micro-seater die to an OAL which is EXACTLY the same as all the other rounds..EXACT CONSISTENCY is the keyword, again
14.I don't take ANY shortcuts, as this may/may not be fatal sometimes, or = a probable cause for inaccuracies/inconsistencies
15.I NEVER use other peoples reloads in my rifles, not even in hunting field

This lesson speaks of years of experience and should this be done by every reloader, there would be no accidents!

Do you look under the bed at night before retiring?

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Do you look under the bed at night before retiring?

Don't have to, I sleep with a loaded pistol in my hands.....considering where I am, it makes sense...

Curiosity bee hooves me to ask.... What are we supposed to be looking for, under the bed? Are there monsters under yours?
I know that I'm slow to catch on, but I don't get it......

quote:

Originally posted by jaybald1:
Curiosity bee hooves me to ask.... What are we supposed to be looking for, under the bed? Are there monsters under yours?
I know that I'm slow to catch on, but I don't get it......

Well, there isn't room under my cot for any monsters, but I am worried about what/who may come through the door and not be very friendly.

What's the difference between the different case cleaning media's?

Not much in it from what I can see, I use walnut media.

A good way to get it cheap is from a pet shop, they sell it as a substrate for reptile vivariums and you should be able to get a lifetime supply of the stuff for a few dollars.

so they are basically wood shavings? What are they used for when it comes to cleaning brass?

quote:

Originally posted by DocWestFMF:
so they are basically wood shavings? What are they used for when it comes to cleaning brass?

Oops, sorry mate, crushed walnut shells are a type of media used as is crushed corn cobs.

I think corn cob is supposed to clean better and walnut is meant to leave the cases shinier at the end of it.

I use walnut media and leave it in the tumbler for longer.

Gun shops sell little bags of the stuff at exorbitant prices, you could try both and see which you prefer.

Doc--I prefer walnut media. It runs out of the case like sand, but corn cobb has tendency to stick in primer pocket-EVERYTIME. I size and deprime then tumble to remove the case lube. Some people tumble before sizing thus with primer still in, sticking in primer pocket not an issue.

can anyone with a Nosler Reload book fill in the blank for me...
125 gr Spitzer, Co-Efficent of .366, OAL 1.060, powder is RL7, 41.5 grs max charge.....What's the velocity?

or is there a magic formula somewhere that I can use to figure that out?

It's on the Nosler website, the same section the data came from.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:


It's on the Nosler website, the same section the data came from.

that is why I am asking, the websited listed the velocity at 308 fps..... If I'm wrong, dip me in beer and throw me to the drunk chicks, but I think that is just a little slow.....

As said before, avoid beer and reloading.

The velocity given on the site is 3088 fps, the OAL is 2.810", not 1.060" which is shorter than the brass case itself.

http://www.nosler.com/Reloadin...ster-125-Grains.aspx

From loading 125 grain bullets in my 308, I would say that Nosler's estimate is pretty reasonable.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
As said before, avoid beer and reloading.

The velocity given on the site is 3088 fps, the OAL is 2.810", not 1.060" which is shorter than the brass case itself.

http://www.nosler.com/Reloadin...ster-125-Grains.aspx

From loading 125 grain bullets in my 308, I would say that Nosler's estimate is pretty reasonable.

See, I knew there was a number missing in there. Can i still get dipped in beer and thrown to the drunk chicks?

Case Type: Nosler
Cart. Max. OAL: 2.810"
Primer Type: Fed 210M
Powder Charge Velocity Load Density
IMR4831 52.0 Max. 2750 fps 112%
50.0 2660 fps 107%
48.0* 2570 fps 103%

Ok, I understand everything except the "Load Density" any help guys?
And still having a hard time with this one...
Sectional Density:
A bullets weight, in pounds, divided by the square of it's diameter in inches.

It is relative to the actual case capacity. "over" capacity is acchieved by using a drop tube, swirling the powder as you fill the case, repeatedly tapping the case as you fill it, and so forth. Stick powder has a fair capacity for compression. Usually when the powder goes crunch when you seat the bullet, it is said to be a compressed load. This is not a good thing with ball powder which resist compression and a side effect may be bulged case walls and bullets being pushed out of the case.
Beyond a bit of compression as you seat the bullet, I have always been able to find a better suited powder that didn't require drop tubes and such. IMO, that sort of stuff is a PIA.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
It is relative to the actual case capacity. "over" capacity is acchieved by using a drop tube, swirling the powder as you fill the case, repeatedly tapping the case as you fill it, and so forth. Stick powder has a fair capacity for compression. Usually when the powder goes crunch when you seat the bullet, it is said to be a compressed load. This is not a good thing with ball powder which resist compression and a side effect may be bulged case walls and bullets being pushed out of the case.
Beyond a bit of compression as you seat the bullet, I have always been able to find a better suited powder that didn't require drop tubes and such. IMO, that sort of stuff is a PIA.

so basically, don't try to "settle" the powder when I pour it in the case. And what does "PIA" mean?

PIA = Pain in the A%$. There is allot of great info, Thanks Doc for starting it and everyone helping!

don't know if anyone has this, but if you need to figure out the sectional density of a round, i figured out the formula....yes, I've very bored out here.

(bullet grain divided by 7000) divided by (diameter x diameter) equals Sectional Density.

Is there a formula for figuring out the FPS for a round with X amount of "Y" powder?

quote:

Originally posted by DocWestFMF:
don't know if anyone has this, but if you need to figure out the sectional density of a round, i figured out the formula....yes, I've very bored out here.

(bullet grain divided by 7000) divided by (diameter x diameter) equals Sectional Density.

Is there a formula for figuring out the FPS for a round with X amount of "Y" powder?

SD is not only easy to figure, it's also a, mostly, moot point.

To answer your 2nd question, no.
There are some rather hairy formulas (usually found in expensive computer programs), but they don't take into account many of the hard variables. IOW they use a perfect bullet, powder, barrel, chamber, throat, etc (none of which exist in the real world) to calculate a theoretical velocity and pressure. Your "real world" results will not even be close (and can be off in either direction).
Hell, some people think the manual velocities are way off, because they can't achieve them in their rifle, even though they were fired from a pressure barrel (PB's are held to much tighter tolerances than production barrels)

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
SD is not only easy to figure, it's also a, mostly, moot point.

To answer your 2nd question, no.
There are some rather hairy formulas (usually found in expensive computer programs), but they don't take into account many of the hard variables. IOW they use a perfect bullet, powder, barrel, chamber, throat, etc (none of which exist in the real world) to calculate a theoretical velocity and pressure. Your "real world" results will not even be close (and can be off in either direction).
Hell, some people think the manual velocities are way off, because they can't achieve them in their rifle, even though they were fired from a pressure barrel (PB's are held to much tighter tolerances than production barrels)

Ok, so i won't waste my time trying to figure it out. I figured knowing how to find the SD of a round would come in handy if I didn't have the name of the maker or the style of the round.

I'm following along and checking in every once in a while. I've gotta admit, there is some useful information to be had here.
The fellow discussing the numbers spat out by a computer which are calculated from ideal conditions and how they never happen in the real world; he makes a good point.
Doc, don't get all hung up on the supposed velocity and secitional density and ballistic co-efficents that you will see published in any of a dozen different places. I mention this for a couple of reasons.....
One, if you are looking something up from a scource that happens to be published by a bullet manufacturer, it's likely a optimistic evaluation, or a down right lie. The manufacturers will boost their numbers, especially the stats we mentioned (ballistic co efficient, sectional density and velocity)in an attempt to make their stuff look better. Moreover, they sometimes decrease other manufacture's numbers to make them look worse in comparison to their products. It's salesmanship.
Second, the computer programs, especially ballistic computers, use a fictional set of circumstances on which to base their results. Read up on how they figure a particular bullets ballistic co efficient as compared to the "perfect projectile" which is assigned a B.C. of 1.00. Once you read up on this stuff, you will begin to see what we mean.
Not that these numbers should be ignored, not at all. And they are useful in their own way. But don't get all excited if you don't find the same great results from " Brand A" as they report in their reviews or catalogues.
The only way to find this stuff out, if you really want to know, is to do your own testing with a chronometer and scales and formulas and do the math and figure it out for your self.
I think that most old pros would agree with me in saying, it's really not that big a deal wether your rounds have a B.C. of .350 or .400 (just an example); or if your rounds move 100 fps faster or slower than the manual.
Unless of course you plan to shoot competitively. That's another can of worms all together. Those people worry about everything! They sweat every detail! The ones who win, at least.

Moral here is, don't worry too much about sectional density. At least in the beginning. There are far more important basics to get down pat first.

Keep your head down over there.... Give em' Hell!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DocWestFMF:
1) start music (country usually works for me)
2) remove beer from fridge, open, take a drink and set on work bench
3) assemble supplies (brass, primers, tools, powder)

Where do I go from here, assuming i am using a brand new box of Winchester .308 brass.

Music, maybe. Food or drink on the work bench? No. Alcohol? In any amount, never. Absolutely.

Distractions of any kind are a bad idea.

Eating food or drink while you are handling chemicals, especially lead is a bad idea.

Impairing your mental acuity while assembling little bombs is ... I don't have the vocabulary to describe.

Lost Sheep

quote:

Is there a formula for figuring out the FPS for a round with X amount of "Y" powder?

No.

Every gun, every chamber, every barrel, every cartridge case is (more or less) a law unto itself. As a barrel gets worn in (or shot out, depending on where in its life you are talking about). Handloading is very much an empirical science.

Go the the web site "ballistics by the inch"

There are some computer programs (and, of course the ballistic scientists who make careers predicting the behavior of bullets) that attempt to do what you ask, with varying degrees of success. But the only way to know is to shoot over a chronograph and average the results.

Every different primer, every different batch of powder (even the same powder, but different batches) and different formulations of bullet lube will make a difference.

Lost Sheep