The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Newbie that Don't know jack, but willing to learn.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hello everyone. As you can tell, I'm the new guy to the forum. I am starting to get into reloading, but will easily admit that I don't know sh*t about it. I've actually been around for a few weeks, just cruising and reading. I saw in one thread that the Lyman Manual for reloading was a good place to start learning. In the collective opinion, is that a good book to get, or are there other suggestions. I will be buying a RCBS reloading set up in late may or june, from my father, but don't know what's in it. my rifles now include a Browning BLR .308 and a 1937 Russian Mosin-Nagat 7.62X54R. So here is my second question, what is a good powder to start with. I've seen good things about IMR. Thanks. Doc West Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | ||
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also, what do you guys think about this book? http://www.cabelas.com/product...23380%3Bcat105549480 Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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You'll need more than one book. Get that one, start with it and add on. A-Square's "Any Shot You Want" is great. _______________________ | |||
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If you have read the book, it probably tells you somewhere that a good powder to start with is one that appears with several of the different weight bullets and gives one of the better velocities. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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DocWestFMF: first off if you are here any lenght of time you will find there are a lot of people here that couldn't find their Obama with their hands behind their bask. hay! that sounds like me. For a first rifle powder I would pick IMR or H4895. It will work in about 90% of all rifles cartridges. In many cases it is not the best powder to uses but it will work. It is very forgiving and can be used with both cast and jacketed bullets and there is more load data (information) than any other rifle powder. | |||
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The ABCs is a very good book for basic instructions and usually has a few more advanced tips but it isn't a reloading manual; the Lyman book IS. It includes some excellant starting instructions, it's well written and well illustrated too. Never ask anyone else what powder to use for anything, you will have a manual to tell you that. Find your cartridge and desired bullet weight then see which of the listed powders obtain the highest velocity - try that one first. Never go to book max loads to begin, start at the listed start charges and slowly increase the charge, move up in .3 or .5 gr. steps for the cartridges you list and feel your way up. Stop and back off a bit if you see/feel anything that suggests your load is overly hot; your manual will tell you what to look for. Never exceed your book's max charge - you MIGHT survive a hotter load but there's rarely any real benefit to doing so and the potential for harm is to great to ignore. You do NOT need more than one loading manual, they vary a bit and cause angst that is unneeded. I've been doing this over 45 years and have maybe three dozen loading books but I only used ONE for the first five years and never felt a need for anything else. By the time I got my second book I had enough experience to deal with book differences, they are mostly just good starting places anyway. All the detailed data the books list are what their test team used for their printed results, none of it's engraved in stone that we must slavishly follow or die. Part of the potential value of handloading is to match our loads to our rigs, if we blindly dupicate some book's loads without change we may as well use factory ammo! However, so long as we do it right and keep an eye on what's happening as we work up we can use any book's start data to develop a load for our own rifles quite safely. Meaning we can substitute bullets (of the same weight), brands of primers and cases, use whatever OAL we wish, etc. God bless, and keep your head down. | |||
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Your talking about IMR 4895 and Hodgdon 4895 powders right? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Thanks for the advice. I had no intention of trying for the max charge loads, I've seen what happens to a rifle with a Max charge or a very hot load...wasn't fun. I'm looking at finding the right load for a distance of 3-500 yd shots, maybe as far as 800, depending on where I am. I'm already planning on keeping a VERY careful log of the loads I use, and the mixture for those loads, bullet weight, powder weight, condition during the shoot, and other things. so yea, I'm gonna start on the low side and work up from there. Is there someplace where I can find a math formula for figuring the pressure, velocity, and kinetic energy delivered by figuring in the distance, bullet weight, drop, and type and weight of the powder, stuff like that. Of did that even make sense? Again, thanks for the help. Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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What do these mean..... Co-Efficent, Sectional Density Cannelure> Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Co-Efficent as in Ballistic Coefficient (BC), a measure of how the bullet slows down/is effected by air/wind. The "standard" of comparison is a 1" round nose cannon shot. A bullet that slows at twice the rate of the standard has a BC of .500. Sectional Density a measure of the caliber to weight ratio Cannelure is quite simply a groove rolled into the surface. Most commonly found used as a crimping groove on a jacketed bullet, sometimes used on straight wall cases as a "seat" for the base of the bullet. | |||
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is there a simpler way to explain and understand this if we go off of the following round..... Nosler Partition .308 cal 180gr. BC: .474 Sectional Density: .271 OAL: 1.26" Minimum Impact Velocity: 1800 Maximum Impact Velocity: Unlimited (pulled straight from Nosler's website) Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Sure BC, for that caliber & weight (30cal, 180gr) that's fairly good. The higher the number, the flatter it will shoot. As the long range guys say, once you build a "drop chart" for your rifle/load, the difference in BC becomes moot. IOW you dial in your scope for the range of the shot.) ALL 30cal 180gr bullets have a SD of .271 (I know, that didn't help much, did it?) | |||
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Doc, it sounds like you're trying to discuss brain surgery whilst you really need to be learning how to put on a bandaid. At this point in time, if you are indeed a beginner, BC and sectional density and neck sizing and neck turning and stuff like that will only clutter up your brain and confuse you. Don't worry about that stuff. Learn how to put powder in the case and a bullet in the neck. When you get good at that, you can take on some of the more aesoteric aspects of the game. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Mr recommended reading list: 1. Lyman #49 (its beginning chapters tell you what equipment to buy and how to use it. The reloading chapters are excellent). 2. Any manuals sold by the companies whose bullets you use. 3. Any manuals sold by the companies whose powders you use. 4. The ABCs of Reloading (any issue prior to the 9th, which is the current one and is dreck. The Modern Reloading (2nd ed) by Richard Lee is good if you use their equipment. BTW, loading techniques have not changed over the years. The 1st ed of the ABCs of Reloading is just as useful as the 8th edition and far better than the 9th, although the 8th is pretty good. Editions 1-4 are especially excellent as they were written by Dean Grennell, who is one of the gods of reloading, second only to Phil Sharpe and the pioneers of reloading. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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As bad as this is gonna sound, I've done that with a pair of pliers and a hammer.(I was REALLY bored that day, and no, I DID NOT attempt to fire that round) I'm just trying to get a basic understanding of what terms mean, and how those affect the bullets. I understand that heavier rounds, 168/180/200, are going to drop faster than lighter round, so that affects the amount of powder used and that I need to find a balance between the weight of the round, amount of powder used, and how far my target is. I ordered Lyman's #49, now just have to get home to read it. So i will order the ABC's as well. Any other suggestions? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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My only suggestion until you've read the book(s) is the same for all beginners, get a Lee Loader (or a picture of one if you happen to be in Afghanistan). Look at those few simple tools and know that hundreds of thousands of rounds of good, accurate ammo have bee loaded using those few, simple tools. Everything else is a whistle or bell. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Umm, not quite. IF the launch velocity is the same, the heavier bullets (of the same design) shoot flatter than the lighter ones. The higher the BC, the flatter the curve. Lighter bullets can be launched faster, true, BUT at some point the heavier/slower starting bullet will "pass" the lighter/faster starting one. That point may be 250yd out, or it may be 750yd's out, but it will happen. I do agree with the Bee man, start with the basics, learn to safely work up a load before you start to worry about the finer details. IOW You haven't learned how to start the car, let alone how to drive it, so there is no point in understanding the nuances of racing a F1 car. | |||
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1) start music (country usually works for me) 2) remove beer from fridge, open, take a drink and set on work bench 3) assemble supplies (brass, primers, tools, powder) Where do I go from here, assuming i am using a brand new box of Winchester .308 brass. Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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MAte the very first thing you need to do is listen to these guys, they are telling you to be cautious for a reason. I'm sorry about this next one but the second step is to put aside the beer and music until you know what you're doing as distractions while reloading can literally be lethal. Not at the time but later on when a round with a full charge is loaded into the chamber after a round with no powder in it has left a bullet an inch or so up the bore... Buy the books, read them and have a look at the beginner's videos of a guy called "Ammosmith" on Youtube. If you're in the army I'm sure you can find someone who knows about reloading to see you through the first few steps, this last is always the preferred option. | |||
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I apologize profusely. I just came back off a patrol when I sent that last post, and wasn't really in a calm state of mind. Guys, i'm sorry. So how about I start with this....Case prep. What tools do I need, and what is the process. Here again, everything is based on .308 caliber. Music isn't a distraction for me, and when i am doing something dangerous, i barely drink anything cept for water. BUT, i do understand what you are saying.... Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Ghubert, thank you for the recommendation for ammosmith, that is what i was looking for and should have thought of it, and asked. And I'm in the Navy, not that army..... Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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No problems chief, here are the videos I was talking about. It really is best if an old hand shows you the ropes though, maybe you could use the beer as a bribe?  | |||
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+1 on the no beer. Think of reloading as hunting. It's best to save the "couple of cold ones" or toddy until the guns are put away. To carry it a step further, if your mind is all cluttered up with "stuff", it's best to take a break and get mellowed out before you start reloading. Reloading requires all of your mind. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I've watched the first 2-3 video's. What is Chamfering, what does it do, and what tools do i need for it? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Chamfering is cutting a slight bevel in the mouth of the case so's the bullet can be eased into the neck without scratches or distortions. It's pretty obligatory especially when using flat based bullets. You will need a --ta da-- chamfering tool. They make a all-in-one tool that looks like a little rocket ship that will chamfer the inside of the neck and also remove any roughness on the outside of the neck (from trimming to length). Right now everyone is all het up over the "VLD" angled tools that require one tool for the inside and another for the outside. I have used all three and can't find a difference in the real world. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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+1 on 'Bee says. You can improvise a chamfering tool from an ordinary half inch countersinking tool for 30 cal cases if you're careful. | |||
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so since i am getting a RCBS press, would it be best to stay with the same maker for the other tools? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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RCBS makes good stuff. But then so do a bunch of others. And most of it is interchangable. You can take the easy way out, like I did when I started reloading back before cyberspace gave you access to the world. I used what my local gun shop kept in stock. I think Wally World stocks RCBS and Lee which is kinda handy. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I agree that the Lyman Reloading Manual is good source of both data and information and includes cast data as well if you ever go that route. I strongly recommend more than one manual and cross referencing them. MOST of time they are similar. I did have one case where one books load caused problems. For my 30-06 as an example I did choose a powder based on it giving good velocity over a wide range of bullet weights. In reality FOR ME that is a moot point. Wide range of bullet weights available is a beauty feature often discussed about 30-06; for me in practice I settled on one weight and that's what I use. If going from one purpose to another--I don't change bullet weights, I change rifles. In other words I don't try to use a lighter bullet in my 30-06 to make it a varmint rifle--I use my .22 centerfires. Changing bullet weights would entail changing scope setting and I don't find it worth it. | |||
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When I reload, including case preparation, I do it ALONE, with no distractions whatever. Also, I find that I spend more time designing loads that I do assembling them. That means researching the components and the expected results. You're dead right about keeping proper records. You will pay for the data you garner, so don't discard it. You will be surprised at it's value in years to come. I'm an old fart, so my records are on paper in three ring binders. Certainly a computer would be more efficient, buy my records substantially predate the PC. Good luck in your new endeavor, and come home safe. Brice | |||
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I guess I would easily qualify for old fartdom too. When I get a new rifle, I buy a 3 ring binder that is specific to that rifle. On page one goes the serial # and any other pertainent info: scope mounted, bedding, etc. I shoot all targets at home made targets on note paper. Using the stick on bulls, I can get 5 bulls on a sheet of note paper. At longer ranges, I use less bulls and larger spacing. On the targets, when I'm done, I put that days dope: range conditions, powder, bullet, velocity, etc. And it goes in the notebook. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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When I was a kid loading with my Lee Loader, I used a pocket knife. | |||
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I was thinking the same thing since different bullets have different Co-efficents, so that would throw off my Zero. the only thing I want to play with is the powder (Unless I shouldn't) the primer and the casing. Course i will probably have different bullets for hunting vs target shooting, so should I maybe have two scopes for the same rifle? one for hunting and the other for target? As for the manuals, I got the Lyman's, and I found a ABC's 8th edition that i am going to buy. do you have any other recommendations? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Can you tell me all of the information you put on the targets..... Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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how would it work if I averaged together the powder measures for 13 different rounds using the same powder. take for instance, using IMR 3031 powder, average the powder charge for 110-200 gr bullets, would that work for a good starting point for picking a powder charge? or should i choose a bullet first, then go from there? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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I think we need a newbie sticky on the top of the page to address questions like DocWest's. I'll see if I can put something together. Mark, what do you think? | |||
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That's just not nice. So what's the point of being here and asking questions if you're gonna point me to a sticky? Death Smiles at us all, Navy Corpsman laugh back. Raised in the Mountains of Colorado. | |||
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Sorry mate, I would not personally just point people to a sticky, yourself included, it's rather that you're asking a lot of the questions I was asking 4 years ago and new re-loaders ask all the time. The other reason I suggested this is that technology has moved ahead from the purely written or diagrammatic medium, the Ammosmith link I provided you for example are beyond the scope of a paper reloading manual and for people like yourself who are going it alone, worth more than a thousand words. My apologies for the abruptness of my post, but Mark is the moderator on these forums and I have collaborated with him on stickies before, the one at the top of the page was a very useful exercise in pressure testing performed by an Australian member who was king enough to make his data available for all our benefit. It would also be helpful in creating a basic manual for reloading, one without all the esoteric and advanced concepts that a book must cover but have confused you above, for example. Best, Amir | |||
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Hey Doc if you break down my screen name you'll see I spent a little time in the navy myself. Reloading is great fun. It will give you some thing to stump those jarheads with. Are you with force recon or a MEU. Now for your question Having only one reloading manuel is liken to studing for the chiefs exam with only the 3n2 rating manual. I always cross reference my loads and use the lowest max load as my limit. I shoot an ar 10 in 308 with varget powder. I have never loaded for the Mosin but I THINK I would try H4350. You will notice I didn't recommensd a charge get that from a reloading manual. I started with Lee's. I also use lee dies because the slowest of deck apes can figure them out. I reading into your post that you are deployed or on a float. Be careful and welcome to the site. 1 shot 1 thrill | |||
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Doc, I put anything that I consider pertinent. Wind vel and direction, time of day and date cloudy/clear/bright/grey/etc powder charge(s), bullet brand(s) and weight(s) Even suggestions about other things to try. Regarding your question about having two scopes: I don't really think that's neccesary. When you're shooting at targets to develope a load or just for practice, you don't care if the bullets hit dead center of the bull. You're interested in how small the group is. Unless you're shooting in competition. I find that once the rifle is sighted in, a change of bullets or powder isn't gonna affect the POI enough to take you off the paper. In fact, I find that if the group is actually outside of the bullseye, it's easier to plot the hits and the size of the group. So when you're developing a load or just shooting for practice, don't worry about you POI.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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