what can I expect if i start using remington brass instead of winchester brass for my 308 and 223 ? they dont seem to shoot as accurate when I switch

If the proper preparation is maintained , the brand of Brass makes little to no difference .

In some cases ( literally ) commercial and Military can make significant differences .

However for all practical purposes commercial brass is about the same .

Now the Quality of brass cases is NOT the same . Lapua RWS Norma Nosler Hornady are better

than run of the mill Winchoker or Remington . I've had good luck with Remington and LC ,

Federal . I prefer Lapua RWS being my personal two favorites .

quote:

Originally posted by trashcanman:
what can I expect if i start using remington brass instead of winchester brass for my 308 and 223 ? they dont seem to shoot as accurate when I switch

They might not be as accurate on the first firing since they fit your chamber a little looser than brass sized in your sizing dies. I have found that I get better accuracy from most of my loads because of the close attention that I pay to setting up the setting sizing die to push back the shoulder only about .001 to .002.

I've always found winchester brass to be closer to military brass than other brands. If you are going to remington I wouldnt worry. There should be more room in the case and it shouldn't raise pressures. I would chrongraph a few and see if they are faster and just watch for sticky bolt, flattened primers etc.

The first loads in NEW (never been fired) brass will vary from loads developed in once-fired brass. You won't really know if your recipe is going to be good with the Remington brass until you load them in once-fired brass. Also, many say that Remington brass is ever so slightly thinner than Winchester brass, increasing the case volume ever so slightly and thus giving a very slight pressure reduction. I personally like the Winchester brass better than the Remington.

I must disagree with Doc224/375 on this. I have found that changing brand of brass (Win/Rem/???) often makes a difference in a load. You may need to "start over" when you change brass. Best bet is likely to go back to the original brand of brass.

It has been my experience that it can make a difference.

I've tried otherwise identical loads, with the only difference being the case. Testing them side by side has proven to me that it does make a measurable difference. I've tried this in .308 and 45/70.

For me, the case is an important part of the load. Change the case, change the load.

-nosualc

quote:

If the proper preparation is maintained , the brand of Brass makes little to no difference .

I disagree with this and find different brands affect my loads accuracy, velocity and pressure.
Doc I take it you've never loaded Federal brass with your pet load for WW or RP brass, surprise.

I have loaded most every brand of Brass with same loads Federal or WW and have yet to be surprised !.

I agree with these two post . Go back read my original posting .

They might not be as accurate on the first firing since they fit your chamber a little looser than brass sized in your sizing dies. I have found that I get better accuracy from most of my loads because of the close attention that I pay to setting up the setting sizing die to push back the shoulder only about .001 to .002.


The first loads in NEW (never been fired) brass will vary from loads developed in once-fired brass. You won't really know if your recipe is going to be good with the Remington brass until you load them in once-fired brass. Also, many say that Remington brass is ever so slightly thinner than Winchester brass, increasing the case volume ever so slightly and thus giving a very slight pressure reduction. *I personally like the Winchester brass better than the Remington.

* I don't agree with that as I've had bad WW brass and have since quit purchasing it !. 2003 was last

stuff I purchased .

Preferred Brass
For a 6BR, there is one clear choice in brass--Lapua, with Norma the only real second choice. For the .308 Winchester, choice of brass is not so simple. Most of the .308 Win precision shooters we've interviewed do prefer Lapua brass, but others are very happy with Norma, Winchester, Hornady Match and even Remington. Black Hills uses Winchester-made brass for its match ammo, which is capable of .5 MOA or better in many rifles. The main advantage of Lapua brass is consistency and quality. Case-wall thickness is very uniform and most lots have shown less variation in weight than other headstamps. But Winchester brass performs very well in the .308. And, at $24/100, Winchester costs 40% less than Lapua brass. Even if you can potentially get more loadings out of a Lapua case, Winchester brass offers more bang for the buck. You'll find a lot of once-fired Federal Gold Medal Match brass available. While it tends to shoot accurately, we've found GMM brass is relatively soft compared to Lapua or Winchester, so the primer pockets tend to loosen up after just three or four reloadings.

In addition to commercial brass, many .308 Win shooters reload boxer-primed military cases such as Lake City, IMI, and Hirtenberger. The Lake City Match brass is pretty good. Some lots have been excellent. The standard Lake City fodder is inferior to Winchester. IMI brass has a reputation for being strong, but we advise you only to purchase it new. Some used lots of IMI brass from Israel have been defective. If you are looking for ultimate accuracy, IMI will probably disappoint you, though it's good for gas guns that are tough on cases.

The most important thing to remember about military brass is that the internal capacity will probably be less than commercial .308 Win brass, because military brass often has thicker webs or casewalls. Montana Marine reports his fire-formed milsurp cases hold 56 grains of H20 on average compared to 58 grains for fire-formed Winchester. Given the reduced capacity of military brass, you should reduce posted max loads by 1.5 grains when loading with Lake City or most other milsurp brass. However, the IMI MATCH brass is closer to commercial brass in internal case capacity (ICC). Kevin Beggs reports: "Fired, my IMI Match brass runs with an ICC of 55.0gr and bumping the shoulder back .001" will net me an ICC average of 54.0gr. LAPUA runs an average of 54.4gr and Federal runs an average of 54.3gr ICC."


A funny thing happened a few years back a test was done using WW Federal and Remington

brass in .223 .308 30/06 and a couple of other calibers which escapes me at the moment .

Care to venture a guess as to which case manufacturers brand won out ?.

Overall longevity of case life as accuracy was determined a NON ISSUE !.

I prefer new brass once fired in my chamber at middle of the road loads , then proper case

prepping setting the shoulder back .002-3 . It makes a difference to me personally

as to the brand of brass I use , that's why I choose Lapua . As far as accuracy goes

NO it doesn't make a difference and my targets bear that fact .

I've had crappy reloads using Lapua Federal WW and on !, when a particular load was found to

be good I found it to be good in all of my cases .

All Brass cartridges are made to SAMMI standards , for a specific case specification .

That's what makes factory ammo fit in chambers . Chambers vary as we all know .

So the best advice is New Brass fired in YOUR Gun , reloaded to YOUR specs !.

Do that with what ever brand brass you wish to use and tell me what's different .

Commercial brass is different than Military as far as thickness goes we all know that to !.

I have no Idea as to foreign Boxer primed Military brass as I've never reloaded any of

it . It shot so poorly when it was Newly loaded I try to never use it .

Opinions Vary and mine is just another one .

This may also surprise some of you as to case capacity's . Note LC brass water Volume . Surprise !!!.


http://accurateshooter.wordpre...y-223-brass-on-sale/

I have always found FC brass to be of less capacity than RP or WW, to the point of removing all 223 FC brass from cases to be loaded on the progressive. Also I don't believe everything I see on some websites, but no surprise here about the LC brass, it always went thru with the ww and rp, the only ones that consistently showed extremely flat and cratered primers were FC. No one else ever found FC brass to have smaller internal capacity? That does surprise me.

quote:

what can I expect if i start using remington brass instead of winchester brass for my 308 and 223 ?

Your groups will change 42 thousants of an inch. which way? Who knows!

AS a general rule I don't lump head stamps and normally don't load Max. either .

I have not experienced and problems in Federal but it would not surprise me if their capacity

is less in .223 . than other brands .

. By the way Remington won the case testing I previously posted

about . It Really surprised ME !. As I had always used WW brass until some years back

I got a couple of bad batches ( different lots different years ) so I quit buying it .

Now nothing wrong with my older WW stuff been reloading some of that

un annealed for 44 years and counting . Much of it is now splitting due to setting FAR TO LONG.


I found this on .308 so I thought I would post it . I've never used frontier cases

has anyone else ever used them ?.


WARNING: The loads shown here are safe only in the guns for which they were developed. Neither the author nor InterMedia assumes any liability for accidents or injury resulting from the use or misuse of this data.
SUGGESTED .308 168-Grain MatchKing LOADS BULLET POWDER PRIMER CASE STARTING LOAD (grs.) MAXIMUM LOAD (grs.) VELOCITY (fps)
168-gr. Sierra MK IMR 3031 Win. WLR Frontier 37.0 41.0 2,610
168-gr. Sierra MK Accurate XMR 2495 Win. WLR Frontier 38.0 42.0 2,650
168-gr. Sierra MK RamShot TAC Win. WLR Frontier 39.0 43.0 2,660
168-gr. Sierra MK Winchester 748 Win. WLR Frontier 41.0 45.0 2,690
168-gr. Sierra MK IMR 4064 Win. WLR Frontier 40.0 44.0 2,690
168-gr. Sierra MK Alliant Rl-15 Win. WLR Frontier 41.0 45.0 2,700
168-gr. Sierra MK Hodgdon Varget Win. WLR Frontier 42.0 46.0 2,750
168-gr. Sierra MK VV N-540 Win. WLR Frontier 42.0 46.0 2,740
168-gr. Sierra MK Hodgdon H414 Win. WLR Frontier 43.0 47.0 2,640
168-gr. Sierra MK RamShot Big Game Win. WLR Frontier 42.0 45.0 2,520
168-gr. Sierra MK Winchester 760 Win. WLR Frontier 43.0 47.0 2,590

The Match Accurate .308 (Load Data)

I read the OP's question as "if I change cases, will my loads change if everything else remains the same", not "are some brands of cases capable of better accuracy than others".

To the former, I say yes. To the latter I say maybe, but you'd be hardpressed to tell the difference.

-nosualc

I got some Remington cases sent to me by error during a recent order from wholesale sports.I had asked for WINCHESTER 308Win cases and even gave them the product number.The box to be returned is sitting there waiting for me to take it to the post office.I don't like the recent Remington cases.

if you do the work, all cases CAN shoot as well as other cases...

but, if you have a lot of cases that works well with X load, Y primer, Z oal, and A rifle, AND the rifle is finiky, you can bet it will require work to shoot good.

if the rifle isn't finiky, POI will likely move

with my 257, the rem/hornady/winchester cases all shoot into different groups... was kinda mean thing to do to my sons, but it was also a cool experiment

swheeler states;

quote:

I disagree with this and find different brands affect my loads accuracy, velocity and pressure.

I agree 100% with him. I've found Remington cases to generally have less case capcity than WW. FC cases less than either. The question is one of "changing cases" and will it affect anything. The answer is; yes.

Larry Gibson

I'll second these last 2. A different case capacity/weight demonstrates a difference in combustion room. A heavier case (less internal volume) will raise pressures sooner than its counterpart and demands a powder charge reduction to reach a like level of velocity/pressure/accuracy and vice-versa.

BTW, it often applies to POI too.

jeffeosso
Moderator

Posted 13 January 2009 06:32 Hide Post
if you do the work, all cases CAN shoot as well as other cases...

but, if you have a lot of cases that works well with X load, Y primer, Z oal, and A rifle, AND the rifle is finiky, you can bet it will require work to shoot good.

if the rifle isn't finiky, POI will likely move

with my 257, the rem/hornady/winchester cases all shoot into different groups... was kinda mean thing to do to my sons, but it was also a cool experiment


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

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I agree with this statement . Especially Point of impact it will change . As case volume

makes a difference in pressure curves as Andre Mertens has also stated .

Compressed loads verses non compressed loads will surprise many of you as to which creates

more pressure .

Speaking of which pressure is an interesting topic in it's self . Pressure curves .

Over all maximum safe allowable Case pressures .

Obviously everyone has their own opinion pertaining to case preferences for one reason or

another . I like cases which last and need the least amount of preparation .

I still stand by my statement as my targets prove it to me .That given equally prepped once

fired cases from my chamber , then reloaded makes little to NO difference except POI

in my rifles . But different bullet weights makes huge differences in POI also .

FYI ; My .223 reload in WW Lapua RWS Remington are all 25.5 grains of BLC-2 , I don't care as too

the pressure or velocity , only the accuracy and it's Dead On !. That's for 55 grain bullets .

All 4 of my .223's print under 0.5 MOA at 100 meters using various loads . Which is # 16 shots.

One Fouler 3# 5 shot groups under 20 minute time frame . Best .276 worst .887 .

Chrony reads 3055-3078 out of the longer barrel Tikka and out of the Bushmasters 3033-3061

Average Std. Deviation 41 FPS . 25.5 grains BLC-2

As most of you will know who shoot .223 this is on the slow side . But my best accuracy comes

from one of my Bushmasters at 26.4 of BLC-2 and it is the .276" grouping .

I've tried several higher loading but it didn't work for me . In other Rifles such as the Tikka

I've yet to see a significant difference as it puts most factory stuff under 1.00" .

Also FYI the best grouping I've ever shot with my Garand came from loads averaging 121 FPS

Std. Deviation and the absolute worst came from 12 FPS average Deviation .

So Go Figure that one !!.

quote:

Also FYI the best grouping I've ever shot with my Garand came from loads averaging 121 FPS

Std. Deviation and the absolute worst came from 12 FPS average Deviation .

So Go Figure that one !!.

I have a theory on that one; More consitant burning is achieved with higher intensity loads which reach peak chamber pressure earlier. This induces more vibration in the barrel. But this is just a theory. Another consideration is that better accuracy comes from a load that is more forgiving of variations.

Perhaps I will start a thread on that one and ask the good folks on this forum to carry out some tests. (I know that Larry has the means to test all kinds of things! )

quote:

More consitant burning is achieved with higher intensity loads

Less volume brass (often thee thickest brass) with 100% load density may not deliver the highest velocity but perhaps the best groups.