If the picture above "times-out" on us, here is the URL to copy/paste directly to your browser's GO bar.

http://images.ofoto.com/photos493/7/55/93/2/92/0/92029355705_0_ALB.jpg

I thought I'd see if we could gather enough people to get a 25 order together on the .177 Viper mold (especially since we have a small-game list just full of urban cat-sized small game shooters to pull from).

I invited the small game guys to come on over to talk about it. They should start to show up soon and start asking their questions.

Now Ray wouldn't really shoot a cat-sized urban small game animal (just an occasional grackle or two) but I might, especially if I could do it very silently at a whole city block distance away (so nobody would ever know the difference).

<g> Oldfeller

[ 11-12-2003, 04:54: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

Oldfeller:
As in (What was that other web site?) I'm still in for the Viper.

All well and good for the 177 shooters OF,but I have a very old Crosman 22 with a Crosman scope. It also has a 2 position striker and utilizes CO2. Is there a comparable mould avail. for the 22? derf

Put me down for one. Does this come with instructions for necking down .50BMG to .17? <G>

Derf, I'd never leave you out in the cold. Look at the drawing page again and oggle that second lower drawing a little bit closer.

Neat thing about the .22 Viper pellet is that it does double duty, works in .22 pellet guns and in center-fire squib loads.

Take that .22 Viper pellet and put it through your lubriciser and you get a single wide shallow lube band between the driver bands and a soft wax check that is formed around the boat-tail section (all done automatically by your .22 caliber lubricizer die).

The body diameter of the pellet between the driver bands is exactly land top diameter to a center-fire rifle, so you get the driver bands going to the bore wall, the soft wax check for stopping any gas leakage and a land-top rider action on the entire body. It ought to run pretty true.

Who knows how fast you can drive that little bitty aerodynamic sucker without leading, probably a whole lot faster than we are used to seeing a .22 lead pellet fly. (squib loads in a center-fire .22 can be very quiet, too)

Between .22 pellet shooters and .22 center-fire squib load shooters (of whom there are a lot more around than folks may think) you may be able to scrape together 25 people to get the order built.

To get the things up and listed on the Midsouth Expert Cast mold page requires some visible interest for them to count on their fingers. So if you are interested in one of the designs post something saying that so it can get counted.

Oldfeller

I'd order both 17 & 22 when they show up on the Midsouth site.

Oldtimer,I could'nt pull any pics.,and was forbidden by apache.Mid-south made no mention.Very interested in the .22,,Would have to find somone kind enough to send me 10 or so of the .177's to see how they fared through my r-9 before i'd buy one of those,i'm afraid they'd be too heavy.

Claybuster, I too am a technical Neanderthal so I sympathize with you completely.

If you can't get the copy and paste address to work in your browser's GO bar then there simply isn't much to be done about it.

I'll drop the image in here so you can see it again until Ofoto does its "fold it up and put it away trick".



and if you need to go to a backup-mode copy and paste back into your browser bar, try this: (while it is working you can just click on it)

http://images.ofoto.com/photos493/7/55/93/2/92/0/92029355705_0_ALB.jpg

Good luck with the pictures, I know it can be frustrating (been there, too, recently).

As far as selling you some pellets, you'd have to wait a bit until the molds are cut and then someone would likely just give you a few to try out. Then you'd like them and you'd want to get a mold, and then you would find out the train done left the station way back around now -- and you simply missed it.

Life is like that, you know. Sometimes you just got to just go ahead and get in while the getting is possible.

Sound familiar, you forged bolt handle guys?

Oldfeller

[ 11-12-2003, 04:55: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

oldfeller, once again put me down for one of those .17 caliber wonders--hopefully some day a .22 for my K-Hornet also. K2 in orygun

Oldfeller,
I'm in for one of each.
LostCajun

I'M FORBIDDEN TO SEE PICS ON THIS WEB SITE????? WHAT'S THE FUKIN DEAL??????????

I see pictures, are you saying you are getting a message from either the list or your internet provider (aol or yahoo or whoever) saying they can't connect to the source of the pictures, or perhaps they can't handle the linkages?

Oldfeller

Gents, is this site listed by NetNanny as "uncensored adult level gun-related topics" and as such our various under aged air-gun group members aren't being allowed to see the various nekkid steel pictures we have been posting of late?

Shame about that, how will they ever learn anything if they can't see the swell of the ogive and how their little points stick out at a tangent when they get all excited by the rifling?

This must be the explanation of why all my pictures have kept disappearing of late -- I've been blocked by NetNanny.

<g>

Oldfeller

........O/F, if you wanna e-mail me the photo at: rtunell@ gte.net I'll get the picture posted with NO time out's.

........Buckshot

I missed the details about this, can you tell me about the molds?

Thanks!

Mark

Thanks Buckshot, but TRK turned me on to VillagePhotos.com as a host source that:
1) doesn't do Ofoto's nasty time-out tricks and
2) is easy as dirt to use and to understand and
3) is totally hassle free and totally free for 25 pictures.

It's great and I heartily recommend it.

VillagePhotos.com

===========================

MarkWhite, you are asking about how we get the mold deal. We have a deal with Midsouth by which they list our molds on a Expert Cast Mold page and collect the 25 mold orders required to run a custom mold without paying a special $100 set-up fee. Take a look-see at the Midsouth page and bore down into it a bit to see how it works.

You give them a decision (irrevocable) to buy the mold and a charge card number. They lock you down for a slot in the group of 25 that is required to run the mold, then you wait for the rest of the slots to fill up and then the order is placed and run and shipped to you.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/so_mould.asp

Using this system, we can get our custom molds made at a VERY reasonable price with all the paperwork handled by somebody with the systems in place to do it seamlessly. They make their standard profit on the arrangement. Note that pricing, fully DISCOUNTED pricing for a custom cut throat fitted mold. Arranging this deal was one of my better ones, I do believe.

We can also buy direct from LEE, but then we still have to come up with 25 takers and then somebody has to collect all the checks and ship everything. Both Buckshot and I have done it that way, it is a PITA (but worth it back when we had no other choice).

Now, does this answer your question or were you really asking about something else?

Oldfeller

[ 09-07-2003, 17:33: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

Ok, WHY did we create the new pellet design.

Here is the offical, to be stuck to story.

This mold cast lead .177 Viper airgun pellet was developed for long range shooting of cat-sized small game using the new crop of 1,200 fps adult airguns.

The heavy .177 pellet slows down the shot speed to just below the supersonic "disruption" level for improved accuracy, but because the pellet has such an outstanding BC it keeps more of its speed at 25 yards than a standard wasp-waisted diablo pellet would have at 25 yards when leaving the muzzle at the full 1,200 fps.

This ever-increasing fps speed and energy advantage for the .177 Viper pellet is multiplied on out the further the distance you can hold and shoot and still hit your target with your scoped adult air rifle.

Did you know that standard pellets fired from adult airguns lose over half their penetration energy in the first 30 yards due to air friction? They lose over HALF their initial velocity over the first 30 yards? They lose so much velocity due to the normal diablo skirted pellet design that they cannot maintain good stability and accuracy much past 75 yards, but begin to yaw and wander off-line?

That their "skirted air drag" driven trajectory drops multiple multiple feet at 75 yards and well over a yard at 100 yards?

The .177 Viper pellet drops just 8-9 INCHES over these same distances and it can carry 3-4 times more pellet impact and penetrating energy (much more accurately too) delivering enough power to easily through penetrate a cat-sized small game animal end to end at 100 yards.

Join us over on the Accurate Reloading Cast Bullet list if you would like to hear more about how you can own this unique .177 Viper pellet mold for only $15 plus shipping.

This .177 Viper cast pellet mold purchase provides you with a LIFETIME supply of pellets for less than two tins of Beeman pellets (plus the shipping to get them to you).

And yes, that .22 pellet shown a little lower down on the page happens to be sized just right to squib-fire out of your favorite .22 centerfire rifle (as well as out of your .22 caliber adult air gun) for those of you who want to really fix those cat-sized small game critters properly using a urban-quiet squib load out of your nicely scoped full-sized varmint rifle.

Come on over to the Cast Bullet page and ask us all about it. Midsouth and LEE Precision have already agreed to make the molds for us and will begin taking special orders for the .177 Viper mold soon.

(this is for real, it is not a joke -- we take our cat-sized small game shooting seriously over on the Cast Bullet list)

Oldfeller

PS weight estimates on .177 Viper are 20-22 grains and 28-30 grains on the .22 Viper pellet.

When we checked twist rates on air guns the slowest twist we found was one turn in 18 inches, with most being one turn in 14-16 inches. The Viper pellets are fully stable out of your slowest twist air rifle according to Wingyro.

Yes, you can size the driver bands on these pellets using a Beeman pellet sizer. The .177 may very likely not really need it (consistency of .177 bores was very good) but the .22 bores varied all over the place, so you will LIKELY need to size your .22 pellets using the Beeman pellet sizer dies (or you can use a commercial lubriciser die).

================================

We are attempting to show "a building interest" to Midsouth to get them to list the Viper molds on our Expert Cast Bullet Molds* page, so we need you guys to meander on over to the Accurate Cast Bullet page and post that you want one of the molds on the Viper Pellet thread.

wow 20-22 grs for a 17 caliber pellet? seems like half that wt would be plenty. i would like to try to cast my own pellets though. seems like i saw a mould for a spitzer type pellet a couple yrs back.

Count me in for one of each. Thanks Rich.

Old feller,heck,for 15 bucks each,,put me in for one of each.Did'nt see where to order on mid-south

oldfeller -

I think I mis-typed the name. (left off the 's')

see http://www.villagephotos.com/ for photo hosting, not www.villagephoto.com .

Thanks,
Tim K

Wow, so many questions! I guess that's what happens when you come in late! I will work with to assumptions-it will be a 2 cav mold and they are to be cast out of pure lead. Will they fill out properly? How much velocity loss to expect? I would be using an RWS 52 (I am refering to .177 here) which is rated at 1100fps. Has anybody figured out a BC for it? What about terminal performance? Would you get any expansion, say past 50 yds? I find 22 slugs a PITA to cast uless you run them hot and fast, but what the heck, for $15 a pop I would probably take one of each. TIA

BK

I guess you can put me down for a .22 also. I may have a hornet bought.

BravoKilo,

One cavity mold, with only one style per mold is what is planned for now. We could have gotten a two cavity with one of each, but that would have entailed two (2) programming charges for the one mold run and would have raised the bar to 50 molds to get it started. We decided not to do that, that way the .177 mold could go into production whenever it hit it's 25 followed later by the .22 mold.

As far as castability, the mold has no sharp edged bands to fill out so it should be fairly easy to cast.

There is a dirty trick you can use with a bottom pour pot or a dipper, just snuggle the nozzle tight into your sprue cone and let the lead fill the mold under pot pressure. This trick guarantees good fill each time.

20 grains isn't so terribly huge compared to Beeman's .177 Kodiak Magnum pellet, of course the tin of Beeman's will cost about as much as the mold will. Buying the mold also means a lifetime supply of pellets, not just a few hundred.

The extra weight intentionally slows you down to less than 1,100 fps out of the new crop of super magnum air rifles.

This is a good thing, as you don't fight the sonic disruption effects of the sound barrier effects. The pellet will be more accurate out past 50 yards and it will have a better trajectory and it will penetrate like nobody's business.

I wish I still had all those links to the supporting air-gun net links. Shame about Shooters taking them all off to never-never again land like that.

Guys, keep on posting that you want one, as soon as we can get it listed on Midsouth then we can begin posting the "order me" links to the various airgun lists around the net to fill in the remainder of the 25 molds.

Oldfeller

[ 09-06-2003, 19:28: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

Kelly,

I couldn't find it on the Midsouth site either. I'll take a .177.

Mike Root

Oldfeller: How many buyer so far and would a person want to lube these? Either with some of Felix's wonder lube or would some LEE liquid alox maybe thined down a little with some mineral spirits? Probably just rub some Felix wonder lube on the boolit? Am I to under stand that BEEMAN makes a push through sizzer for .177? Still interested in a 17 and I supposed a .22 when ever they come around K2 in orygun

K2, you would use a silicon oil to lube either of the pellets for air gun use, you would use bullet lube on the .22 Viper if you were shooting it out of your center fire.

Last time I counted on my fingers we were about half way there, so if you guys are interested just keep saying so and we will pick up the needed people.

Oldfeller

Count me in for one of each. I think my RWS 45 has enough power for this pellet. Leadsmith

oldfeller: Went to see my dentist yesterday snf told of this wonderful pellet. long story short is that to put him in for a mold also. So when they are made I'll be up for 2 .177 molds and one .22 mold. k2 in orygun

I know I'm late to this party but I just noticed it. I've been looking for a better critter gitter for my RWS-45 and this looks like the ticket. I was thinking about swaging someting but I'd rather cast it. How do I get in on this one? I'm good for 5 moulds on this puppy ( me and 4 friends).

Courtney Plater

I finally got an answer out of Michael Ryan as to why he hasn't listed the Viper pellets. Midsouth is sort of disappointed in the last couple of molds that got listed by our list members and they want us to "finish them up" before they want to try to list anything else for us.

I asked them which molds they were referring to, they said the upper ones in the list. Michael mentioned only 12 orders had been collected, for which ones I do not know (nor did I ask).

Now, I am going to drop a pearl of wisdom -- six cavity molds are neat to discuss, but they don't sell worth doodley in the real world. LEE will tell you that, I can tell you that, simply trust us that it is so. Stick with singles and doubles.

Single cavity sells well, double cavity sells OK, six cavities just sit.

How long do they sit? A LONG time. I bet you could ask for a six cavity Karabiner mold and what you would get shipped was actually cut a long long time ago.

I got bit by a slow selling six cavity mold too, that's how I know all about them. I am not totally "innocent" in this stalled thing, either.

The single cavity 8mm Maximum has sold through twice and is working on set #3 and some of the original run of six cavity Karabiner molds are still sitting there for the 8mm Karabiner. I think the 8mm Karabiner is the better design for both hunting and target work, so go figure -- what's the problem .....

$14 vs $44 tells me enough of the true cause story.

And I clearly remember how much everybody preferred and "wanted" a six cavity mold. Apparently their wallets really wanted a much cheaper single cavity mold, apparently.

===============================================

I then broached Midsouth with an idea about how to deal with the "stalled" molds, that the signed-up purchasing members pro-rata the $100 programming fee among the number of people who have registered at the end of say, 6 months.

For example, the 12 people signed up for a theoretical mold would theoretically pay a bumper charge of $100/12=$8.33 which would automatically break the mold order free at the end of six months. This breaks the order free at a cost penality for those who didn't actively promote their designs on other boards, etc.

(yes, it is a cost penalty, but it is still a lot cheaper than trying to run an order through on your own or to try to get it special cut from Mountain Molds or Egan)

Take the .177 Viper, if the 15 people who say they wanted one right now were all that ever wound up ordering it, it would cost $14 + $6.66 bumper charge at the end of the six months. However, once it was listed on Midsouth then I could then actively promote it on airgun boards and all of the other cast boards just like I did for the 6.5 Swede.

If I drummed up enough interest on other air-gun lists during the six month period, that bumper number would go down by stages all the way to zero provided just so we got enough of them to place their order before a given, known deadline date.

By changing the Midsouth arrangement slightly in this fashion, the deal becomes viable again and the molds flow at a still relatively reasonable cost to us. I can remember when $17.99 was such a deal for a custom cut mold that lots of people bought two of them just so as to have a spare.

Even with a bumper charge (if things don't work out as well as expected) you are still paying about that much for the same custom cut molds.

What are your thoughts on this new idea? Is it viable?

Oldfeller

oldfeller: If I understand what you are saying the cost of the mold (14.99+s&h) + $100 divided (mold 'set up fee') by the number of confurmed orders (be it 6 or 12 or whatever) will be our actual cost. Unless 25 or more people decide (within 6 months or when ever) that the .17 viper is the neatest thing since zippers on socks, then the $100 set up fee would ceases to exist?
If that is the case I'm still interested in one for my self and one for my dentist. K2 in orygun

I thought things would be setup by now at Mid-south, I didn't see the /17 viper or the .22, so I called them today. The very nice lady tried looking it up and couldn't find any listing. I still want one each of the .17 and .22. Are they going to list it soon or do I still have to wait for more people to come on board?

elbStJoeMO

According to Midsouth they are just waiting for Chris Painter to put a unique part number to each of the two CAD drawings so it will jive with their computer ordering system so actual orders can be placed. I was told very clearly today that this would be done today by 2:00 PM, so it should be done by now.

The wepage listing will go quickly once this happens, but with the actual part numbers in hand you can go ahead and place your order.

If you decide you just have to call them and the order lady does not know what you are talking about, then ask her to ask Chris Painter as he is "the father of part numbers" and KNOWS what the number is going to be if anyone does.

I would always recommend placing your order directly off the web page, as fewer screw ups take place using that method.

==========================================

Well, it has been 4 days and multiple phone calls to Midsouth. I have been shuffled from one player to the next, each claiming the other is "the hold up" on the progress. Chris Painter at least is honest enough to tell me not to be holding my breath for anything, so I won't -- not any more anyway.

These designs does not look like they are going to ever be listed by Midsouth, and that is AFTER Sundog's generous buying up all of the "excuse" that the delay was originally blamed upon, which was the stuck BD 45 molds. (Sundog can't keep on buying up stuck molds forever, obviously)

Guys, I have to begun to think that Midsouth is politely backing away from this arrangement for their own internal reasons, a situation that has nothing to do with anything we did or didn't do as a group.

Let's be honest, even the best designs we have put forward have not sold out blazingly fast, and this is apparently what Midsouth was looking for -- a faster turn over. Allocating their resources for some slow, relatively low-margin sales isn't what they need to be doing right now in these tight & tough times.

All I can say is that I hope that things get better and there is more time for some more "community service" type work from Midsouth later on.

Oldfeller

[ 09-24-2003, 23:42: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

So is Lee going to be asked about producing it then? Like most others here I'd sure like to buy one too.

LEE has already approved the design, so getting them to produce it is not an issue.

I won't be bringing any more molds to my house (as per a firm promise given faithfully to my long-suffering wife) so don't be looking at me to do it.

If one of you guys wants to collect the 25 checks then feel free to do so.

Key thing, start from $14 as a starting point (knowing we can get our hands on an FFL holder to front us with LEE) and add enough money to cover your outbound packaging and postage costs. Throw in a dollar per mold (at least) to cover your incidental costs (tape and such like).

POSTAGE HAS GONE UP ----- I did a mold order for $17.99 a while back and lost a little bit of money. Buckshot did one for $23.99 not too long ago. If he didn't lose any money, then about $24 a mold is what you are talking about IF you can get the 25 mold orders all lined up for a given design.

HERE IS THE KICKER, if you could get 25 mold orders all lined up nice and neat, then Midsouth would then handle it for you .... for $14.00 each.

It's sorta like a banker, you have to prove you don't need the loan before you can borrow any money.

Oldfeller

OK, does anyone here want to be the check holder?

I would but I'm going to have to sneak this stuff around my wife anyway!

I'll do it. If I can get some logistical help from Oldfeller.

Send me an email subject molds and I'll reply with my mailing adress.

rootdr101(at)cs(dot)com

Mike

I'd be interested in one of the 22 cal's, for the ole benjamin pump.

Paul,

I will accept your inquiry and keep it on file but right now I'm going to concentrate on the .177

Mike