303Guy

Just push a 1/2 gr piece of dacron down inside the neck (I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod) and let the bullet push it down onto the powder when seated.

Larry Gibson

Thanks, I'll do that. Now, what exactly is Dacron? Where do I get it?

Fo a while now I have been lamenting the short neck of the 303Brit (and looking over at the much longer necked 30-40 Krag), because there is no room for a nice thick wad under the bullet. Dacron, it seems, will give me my wad. I should ask, does seating the bullet past the neck/shoulder have any effect when using Dacron? I seat flush or just up to the 'dough-nut'.

One more question - can the Dacron be lubed? It was just a thought. I was playing around with mixing candle wax and 'STP' and found that as long as the mix is not 'worked', the 'STP' stays locked in the wax. Work it and the 'STP' gets released. But the molten mix can be soaked up into stuff - see what I mean?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Thanks, I'll do that. Now, what exactly is Dacron? Where do I get it?

Fo a while now I have been lamenting the short neck of the 303Brit (and looking over at the much longer necked 30-40 Krag), because there is no room for a nice thick wad under the bullet. Dacron, it seems, will give me my wad. I should ask, does seating the bullet past the neck/shoulder have any effect when using Dacron? I seat flush or just up to the 'dough-nut'.

One more question - can the Dacron be lubed? It was just a thought. I was playing around with mixing candle wax and 'STP' and found that as long as the mix is not 'worked', the 'STP' stays locked in the wax. Work it and the 'STP' gets released. But the molten mix can be soaked up into stuff - see what I mean?

Dacron is the stuff you find in some stuff animal toys, it's the batting used in making a say a quilt. Go to a sewing/cloth store and ask the sales lady for Dacron batting. It's a synthetic product, I believe, first made by DuPont. By the way the quilt Dacron comes on a large roll and most is usually 1/2 thick and this is perfect. Have the lady slice you off a piece say 1 foot wide and however long her roll is. This will last a very very long time. By trial and error you will see when you cut the pieces for your cases depending on what case size and powder load. The stuff is springy which is what you want. Like Larry said you want to occupy the space between the top of the powder and the bullet base. Went you load it into the case, like he said, have it come up to the case mouth so the bullet presses on it when seated. Never tamp it down atop the powder into a wad.

Thanks Starmetal. Is there a reason for not using cotton wool? I have used that in the past and did not see any problem with it. Can it cause fires?

I am now getting ready to load up some 243gr bullets. I had used 35.5gr Varget/AR2208 under 220gr bullets. Now I am not sure what to load under the 243 grainers. Am I going to move into the alledged detonation danger zone? Should I just be forgetting the very heavy bullets? These are the same length as the original 215gr 303Brit bullets.

303Guy

Wool does work but it does burn. A friend of mine used it because his wife could get the little balls of it for next to nothing. Worked good for him until he started the grass on fire in front of the firing line. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Dacron is very inexpensive and can be found in any fabric shop. There is no reason not to use it.

Larry Gibson

My reason would be one that Larry said, it burns, plus it's not as light as Dacron or Kapok. I feel the lighter the better. Both those mentioned pretty much disappear when you shoot them. One shooter on castboolits claims he sometimes finds little Dacron wads in front of his shooting stand. I've never ever found one. With Kapok it blows apart upon leaving the muzzle like blowing on a dandelion ball of seeds. NRA says that Dacron melts. Good high speed camera would be good to find out.

Thanks again! So .... what is Kapok? I've heard of it - a long time ago - but never knew what it was.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Thanks again! So .... what is Kapok? I've heard of it - a long time ago - but never knew what it was.

Kapok is a plant fiber much like what is in those Milkweed pods. It use to have a big use for filler in lifejackets, stuff animals, etc.. Over here in the states there are places that sell it. Long ago when I used it I bought a lifejacket to get a supply of it. They don't use it in lifejackets anymore. It's kind of a silky fiber that is cream or tan in color.

Thanks. I forgot to look for some Dacron.

There was a question asked what I wanted to shoot with such heavy cast bullets - The idea is to have enough bullet left should expansion be exessive. This is what a low velocity bullet does to itself.


I should comment that shooting these moderate velocity cast bullets is real sweet!

I haven't gotten around to bying some Dacron but I needed to do some fire-lapping so I used cotton-wool. I was very interested to see how cotton-wool caused fires. Well, the recovered cotton-wool showed no sign of igniting - not even scourching! It does show some grey deposits and some 'wiping' deposits from the bore.

Oh, I did actually fire two 245gr bullets with 30grs Varget/AR2208 with cotton-wool filler. One load showed more pressure than the other! (Still moderate). The cotton-wool still did not show any signs of heat damage although there was a waxyness to some of it from the waxy-lube wad on the bullet.

On the bullet weight front - I am worried about trying my 245gr cast bullets because from my extrapolations, I would be needing to use less than the recommended 75% case volume of powder charge as recommended by the manufacture. 75% is 35grs which is what I used for the 220gr bullets and they shot fine. For 245gr bullets I would need 30gr powder which is too little! Using a slower powder could be worse as the slower the powder the greater the alledged risk. So, for now I shall be making up another batch of 220 grainers.

This is one of them. This one had no gas check and as can be seen, underwent a bit of base deformation. No leading nor flame cutting. (I would assume that the obturation of the bullet kept it well sealed in the bore).

I have now test fired a 245gr bullet on top of 30grs Varget/AR2208 with a cotton wool fill. Pressure was relatively mild and expansion good. I fired two shots, one out my two groove No.4 and the other out my MLE MkI*. The MLE shows leading with just one shot! The No.4 does not. Strange - the MLE has a mint bore!

The No.4 recovered bullet. This one had a waxy-lube wad which is still there with some cotton wool stuck on it.

This one was from the MLE. It lost its gas check somewhere.

If these bullets behave like this on game, there are going to be some seriously dead deer!

quote:

The MLE shows leading with just one shot!

Well, the leading came out with a light brushing! Way too easy! I prelubed the bore and gave it another shot. It is still lubed (The bullet had more lube on it this time).

bits of the nose section broke off. That last bit started to break off. There's still a lot of bullet left. The base shows flattening into the gas-check but not distortion.

New bullet mould made - 200gr with gas check.

A comparison between a 245gr, 200gr with tip sharpend, 200gr with tip impressed to form a hollow poing and a 185gr Lee.

The bullet with sprew next to one with the hollow point cast in. Next to that is the sprew from the hollow point casting piece.

Same again with side view. That little sprew is what is sharpened to a point in the first pic.

Now to test them!

Did some testing. This bullet is real tight in the NoI throat. It is basically touching the leade when chambered. I was anable to assess flame cutting in either rifle as there is just not enough of the bullet left to examine. I tried a light load with Lil'Gun but even that one damaged the bullet too much in the sand pot.



The one and only shot with the No4 nearly stripped through the rifling. If one looks real careful one can make out how little of the groove was left. There was no visible leading. The rifle has a larger throat and therefor holds a better lube film than the NoI.

On this last pic one make out the thin ridge which is all that's left of the groove.

I tried reducing the charge a bit and added a lube sandwich. 30gr Varget/AR2208 behind the new 200gr bullet. Weight retention 198gr! (This is at muzzle velocity through wet rags and newsprint). Land narrowing is about 50% with no leading of the bore. Plenty lube left for the next shot. (Too much maybe).
This one was fired through the two-groove No4.
No sign of flame cutting. This load might just work! Range testing needed now.


That is a cardboard wad from the lube sandwich on the bullet base. It looks a bit uneven but that's due to water washing of the bullet. It looks like most of the lube got squeezed out into the bore. I'm not sure if I actually want the wad to stay stuck on the base. This bullet did not have a hollow point.

This one was fired through the NoI MkI. Also 30gr powder. A lot less retained weight this time. No sign of leading or bullet smeer.

I changed the lube sandwich. This one had the lube between two cardboard wads. That kept the bullet base clean. I did manage to get some molten lube into the cotton ball filler. I wonder if that's a bad thing?

quote:

I wonder if that's a bad thing?

To find out I left the filler flush with the case mouth then dipped into molten lube and let it set. I place a wad over that and seated the bullet and lubed that. I forgot to knurl the bullet and there was just a tiny trace of lead smear on the gas check. The bore is nice and clean and shiny.

have you tried a slight re-try of your lube yet?
all these lube thingies you are working with might not be necessary with a few ingredient changes or additions..
jojoba oil,castor oil,glycerin,carnuba wax..
lanolin.
these all add lubricity.
what you are getting on the nose is plenty,about double on what i use on most of mine.
i would look at knurling with quality.

quote:

all these lube thingies you are working with might not be necessary with a few ingredient changes or additions..

Yes, I have tried castor oil. That seems to work real well! Trouble is, it doesn't mix with candle wax. Well, it 'mixes' but the slightest disturbence and it separates. I have added 'STP'. I have the castor oil so whould like to pursue that one for a while to see if I can make that viable for me. There is actually no reason for me to use a hard mix like am am doing at the moment. The 'thinkies' idea was to overcome the wiping out effect of cotton balls. I am actually at the place now when the next step is lube improvement. What I am looking for is a lube that stays in place in the magazine. Storing the rounds outside the magazine is no problem. Loosing a little lube during loading the magazine and chambering a round is what I need to allow for. Theoretically, if I can lube the bore behind the bullet should reduce the amount of lube needed on the bullet. I plan on trying a whole list of different lubes and lube systems over time but I dare say I will stop playing around as soon as I find one that suites me.

quote:

The bore is nice and clean and shiny.

Correction. It looks shiny! Actually, when I push cotton balls throught the bore (they compact nicely and get into the grooves), they come out all dirty - not too dirty mind you, when I lube with castor oil).

quote:

I would look at knurling with quality.

Do you have a pic that shows what I should be aiming for?

you need sodium stearate to bind the castor oil in.
it needs to be cooked till smoking practically and then add ivory soap flakes small thin ones and stir for ever.i would do the knurling before the seating process and lube also.
this will coat the whole boolit.
and will keep some covered in the neck too.
i would also add some carnuba wax to the mix this is good stuff for bore coating.
the knurling you are getting is pretty good you just need to refine your technique for consistency is all.
i am following this project like it were one of my own and i would donate some alloy to the project if i could figure out how to ship lead to ya.

303guy, I told you what lube to give a try. Just rub it on there.

quote:

303guy, I told you what lube to give a try. Just rub it on there.

You did. I was going to PM you but had a slight family crisis!
Thanks for the info, Lamar. Where whould I get carnuba wax? I know of a cheese maker. He's Dutch - go figure!

Something I find interesting and fun is that I am only discovering stuff by experimenting and playing around, that you experienced folks have long known!

found most of it out the way you are.
i have only figured out how to get on the net last year,don'y know if it was time wasted or well spent.

quote:

i have only figured out how to get on the net last year,don'y know if it was time wasted or well spent.

Lamar
I do hope hope you will find it worthwhile. For what it is worth, it is the input - encouragement - from folks like youself that make this so much fun for me and most likely many others. I enjoy listening to experienced folks, trying stuff, experimenting and running it past those who know to see if I got it right and to get redirected if not. (I've had rethink quite a few of my ideas! ) I enjoy testing stuff I learn from you folks. It's great to learn something, put it to the test and see it for myself! You folks help me to figure things out when I get stuck. (It took me quite a while to find out how to post pics - one of you folks explained it to me very carefully - I don't have a resident teenager to help me! )

starmetal
I had put your idea on back-burner but since I am at that point of testing lubes, I finally gave it another try. Well, it was messy but the bore was so clean - it had had one shot through it before your trick. Previously, one or two shots would leave plenty black stuff to be removed but not this time! I've just had an idea ..... ! I'm off to try it! I'll PM you.

Right! Tried it. I made a wad of starmetal's trick and gave it a go. Well, it looks good! I did use my normal dip lube on the bullet and I did pre-lube the bore with castor oil. The recovered bullet shows no flame cutting and there was no visible leading in the bore, but pushing a tight cotton ball through the bore revelead a few lead flakes in the grooves. There were obviously loose and come out with the first ball. The second ball revealed quite a clean bore!


The centre cotton ball - which compacts into a tight wad when pushed through the bore - show the lead flakes. There is a tiney shiny dot - that's one - and near that is a flake of lead.

Just an update.
I am getting closer to the cast and swaged bullet I set out to develop. This one weighs in at 210gr. The mold needs to be lapped out a bit more to get the final diameter I want, that being 8.05mm, tapering down to 7.7mm just behind the nose.

The RH bullet is straight from the mould and the LH one has been swaged in the same mould. The sprew has been swaged into a hollow point, filling out the mould fully.

I am now trying paper patching.



The paper is sigarette paper and is real thin and soft when wet. I lubed the loaded bullet anyway. Powder charge was 38gr AR2209. Pressure was good.