My new Marlin 336A tells me that it is really a 25-35 and would I help it out of it's 30-30 shell. The plea is hard to ignore, because I was so fond of my Win. 94 (25-35) and Rems 14 and 30S (25 Remington) that I let slip out of my hands in the mid-60s. Acts of extreme stupidity!

I would like to push 257312 to 2-2.3K and still retain the ability to shoot (shudder) the 117 RN full length gas check bullets. I would not do this heinous deed unless banned from the Cult of the Melting Pot.

The twist thing has me scratching my head. The factory spec is 1-8 which seems fast for cast and I don't know if a 1-10 or 1-12 would stablilize the 117 RN. Anybody has any experience to share.

This is all cash flow dependent, you understand. Until the cash flows this is my Microgroove/cast test bed.

I have a .25-35 Brown Improved with a 1-12 twist. I can just stabilize 117 RN if I pust them to the absolute max. It's pretty sure that the standard .25-35 won't.

Please publish here how long that 117 RN is to the nearest thousands. Also, need to know how long the tip of the boolit is, that is, where the boolit starts to make its final bend to the tip to the actual tip. The length of the bore ride portion, if any, is of no real consequence. We will just assume a wadcutter up to that start of the curvature towards the actual tip. ... felix

Charles....My 1-10 twist shoots the 257312, the 257464, the 257325 and the 25-100-FN. I've shot the 25-120-SP in it but it's pretty long and has to be deep seated in the case and I'm afraid I'm loosing some accuracy there. That experience was with one load and I haven't been back to it since. Guess I need to so some more "spearminting". There was no signs of keyholing...just didn't shoot too well.

I thought long and hard about the twist when I made mine and went with a 1-10./beagle

From the other side of the coin.....my Win 94 has the 1-8" twist, and does GREAT work with the (gasp) FLGC Hornady 117 bullet. Its cast counterpart is the NEI #21, 114 grain FN. Using the fast twist/6.5 x 55 idea about NO FASTER THAN 1600 FPS, the NEI serves as my rat zapper at those speeds and the Hornady will do the deer work. The Speer 75 FN and Remington RN 86 grainers didn't do well at any velocity. Some OLD Remington 100 grain RN I scrounged did OK, but not even close to the Hornady groups (1.25" -1.5" at 100 yards). The NEI castings do almost as well as the Hornadys.

Thanks Guys..

Felix..Sorry but I don't have one of those 117 RN Hornadays to measure.

Begle - I am thinking 1-10 as the way to go

Deputy Al - I would like to push my cast bullets faster than 1,600. I am thinking I could get 2.2 or 2.3K with a 90 grain GC without any problems. This should be a truck gun delux and do well for rambling in the brush. Should be pure death on critters smaller than deer. Sorta a 25-20 on steroids.

In the back of my mind is the 25-35 Ackley Improved. Of all the AI rounds, the 25-35 shows the most increase in velocity. The 117 RN at 2.8K would be a Texas deer hunters joy out to 200 yards or so. A 1-10 twist should have no trouble with the 117 RN at that speed. Also the blown out case would give me a case capacity that would hold at least 40/WC872 and I like that powder with cast bullets a bunch.

On the other hand, I am a traditional kind of guy who like old guns and old cartridges and have some fond memories of the 25-35 WCF.

I will ponder these things, as I start trying to rat hole enough money for a new barrel. I also have to find somebody to do the work. The 24" barrel on the rifle in fairly stiff going .640 at the muzzle. I would like to keep the same contour. Makes for steady shooting.

2800 fps is a tad ambitious. 2650 is more like it in an .25-35 Improved with 117 grainers.

You can get the 86 grainers for the .25-20 up to 3000 or so. I would not shoot a deer with one, but that thin jacket should turn coyotes inside out. (No coyotes 'round here for me to try it out on.)

Dunno about faster speeds in the 1-8" twist with cast boolits. Complaints are almsot universal in 6.5 x 55 Swede with cast going faster than 1600 FPS.

Just some musings here......250 Savage 1/14 twist gets almost 3000 FPS with sane loads and the 86 grain Remington 25-20 bullet. It likely would turn a coyote inside out, because it disassembles jackrabbits with finality and wide dispersion. This same bullet just doesn't work at any speed in the 25-35 and its faster twist.

100 grain NEI #20's do the same thing in the 250, but from different cause--they seem to cartwheel on contact at all speeds from 1400-2000 FPS, probably from minimal stability in the 1/14 twist. I do know the 250 liked the shorter RN 100 grainers a lot better than spitzers, since group sizes were half the size with the RN compared to the pointy things.

If 2600 FPS is possible in the 25-35 A/I in the 24" barrel, 1-10" might suffice to stabilize the 117 Hornady. The 1-8" is a little hard to understand, but recall that the 6.5 mm rifles made around the same time period featured long skinny bullets with similar twist rates, and these 6.5's had reputations for game-taking capability far surpassing their paper ballistics. The long skinny Hornady 117 is kind of in that spirit.

Chargar-

Greenhill's Formula suggests:

1:8 - 1.238" (max bullet length)
1:9 - 1.101"
1:10 - 0.991"
1:11 - 0.901"
1:12 - 0.826"
>1:14 - 0.708"

NEI's bullets compare in length as follow:
#21 .257-114-GC / 0.981" (+GC)
#22 .257-115-GC / 0.940" (+GC)
#23 .257-110-GC / 0.940" (+GC)

RCBS 257-120-SP / 1.022" (w/GC)

Eagan #MX3.25X (.257-100-TC - tapered) / 0.851" (+GC)

Hornady 117-RN -appears to be- approx. 0.890" (I don't have one to measure.)

Best regards-

Sky C.

Thanks guys for all of the great info. According to Mr. Greenhill as producted by Sky..a 1-10 barrel should do just fine with 117 Hornaday and the NEI cast numbers. I have no trouble pushing 30 cal cast bullet at 2.2-2.3K from a 1-10 barrel with good accuracy. I don't see why I could not do the same with a 25.

The 25 AI is an interesting round. After doing some research on the AI family of cartridges, I found that the 25-35 AI gives the highest return in extra velocity, somewhere in the 25% range. Other AI rounds give different amounts with some less than 10%. Anyway..the 25-35 AI is the shining star of the lot, with some reported MV of 2,900 fps with the 117 RN. I know..I know..you have to take these Wildcat claims with a grain of salt, that is why I droped it to 2,800 for a reality factor. But even 2,600 - 2,700 fps would be a 300-400 fps increase and worth the effort.

Anyway..my compass is set on a 25-35 of some kind. I have to finish paying out a new gun safe, and then I will start rat holing the money. Maybe this time next year, I will have the rifle in my hand. Merry Christmas 04 to me.

Dep. Al...some years ago I used to play with the 250-3000 Savage in a good Model 99. When the round was introduced, Savage wanted to promote a velocity of 3K. This was the first commerical round to attain that speed. To do that they had to use an 87 grain bullet and optimized the twist at 1-14 for that bullet.

My 99 was a true MOA rifle with the 87 grain Sierra and 4064 powder. Savage also produced a 100 grain load, but the 1-14 twist just would not cut it with the longer bullet. I could produce 2 MOA loads using 100 grain bullet in my 99 which was OK for deer hunting. Just for fun I tried some 120 grain Shay bullets and the groups opened up to five or six inches. I still have a couple of hundred of those old hand made bullets.

Savage missed the boat by not using a 1-12 twist which would have done well with both the 87 and 100 grain bullets. Had they done that, the round would have stood up better against Ned Roberts 25 in the market.

Just some musings...Take care and keep em in the X ring.