I'll start that I started using cast bullets to plink and because they were cheaper. I tried them on deer one time and results dismal so I no longer do it. I do use them on jackrabbits, but other than that pretty much plinking. My not using them on deer does not mean I put it down. For me I find it more convenient to use a smaller flat shooting cal. I prefer that to a large bore, usually with a rainbow trajectory.

With use in pistols it is much cheaper.

In rifles it is the challenge,at least for me.
So many molds so little time.

What a hobby.

Bullets for big bores, like my 550 Gibbs, 404J, and a build in 458 Ultra Mag are priced so many dollars per bullet, not so many bullets for a dollar. A rock does not know the difference between being turned into pea gravel with a jacketed bullet at 2300fps, or a similar weight cast a couple hundred fps slower.

I have a really nice Krag carbine. Stuff a Mills Belt full of 311384 and spend a day whacking ground squirrels, and you have an afternoon that is hard to beat.

I've shot game thru the size of Deer and Elk with cast.

95% of my handgun loads utilize cast.

It does it all for me.

I'm with Idaho.
There's only two calibers that I don't use cast bullets for. The 25-06 and my 308/7.62s. The 25 I just never thought of it and the 308/7.62s I'm not sure how the cast bullets would treat the gas systems.
I have loaded cast bullets, with good results, for 45-70, 405 Winchester, 30-06, 243, 45 Colt, 44 Special, 357, 375 Whelen, 45 acp and 45 Auto Rim.
A wheel weight, air cooled, sized .4585, lubed with somebody's Alox 45-70 is real effective on White tails and turkeys.
The 30-06 is a Winchester 95, strictly for steel gongs. I use a 208 grain GC'd, lubed with LBT and loaded with data from Lyman or Speer data for a 220 grain jacketed bullet.
Most of my firearms were purchased just for cast bullet shooting. You never know when those idiots in Washington will finally push the economy over the top.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
I'm with Idaho.
There's only two calibers that I don't use cast bullets for. The 25-06 and my 308/7.62s. The 25 I just never thought of it and the 308/7.62s I'm not sure how the cast bullets would treat the gas systems.
I have loaded cast bullets, with good results, for 45-70, 405 Winchester, 30-06, 243, 45 Colt, 44 Special, 357, 375 Whelen, 45 acp and 45 Auto Rim.
A wheel weight, air cooled, sized .4585, lubed with somebody's Alox 45-70 is real effective on White tails and turkeys.
The 30-06 is a Winchester 95, strictly for steel gongs. I use a 208 grain GC'd, lubed with LBT and loaded with data from Lyman or Speer data for a 220 grain jacketed bullet.
Most of my firearms were purchased just for cast bullet shooting. You never know when those idiots in Washington will finally push the economy over the top.

Jim

Jim,

I can assure you that if you good cast loads that will not hurt the gas system. I've shot them in quite a few semi auto like the AR 10, AR 15, SKS, French MAS 49/56, SVT 40, FN FAL, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, etc. with no harm.

I don't own a 25-06 but have friends that do and enjoy shooting casts from those also.

Here in England some of us are loading cast bullets, over a mild charge of Trail Boss, to give about 1,100fps to use Lee Enfield .303 rifles on indoor ranges where full power ammunition would fail the safety template for velocity.

I only use them in my 1894 Marlin .44 Rem Mag.

Use the Lyman 429421 Keith style semi-wadcutter, does pretty good and is fairly accurate.

Price .375 caliber and larger jacketed bullets and you'll give cast a serious second look.

Muscle Memory is the key to fast and accurate offhand shooting, and being able to go cruising the woods or shooting targets is a lot more fun with 25-cent cast than dollar-plus jacketed. Only live game can tell the difference.

We did, after all, slaughter the Buffalo herds and decimate the Indians with cast and black powder in the 45-70.

Rich

heck a deer or an elk doesn't know what made those holes through it's shoulders and boiler room.
my ar-15 likes cast just fine too, it flip those little boolits out at about 2700 fps and shoots 2" and under groups consistently.
i mostly use cast in everything i have, but also swage bullets for a few different guns, and break down and buy a hundred storeboughts for a couple of others.
my 358 win or 30-30 might be throwng naked lead out at jaxketed velocity's but that doesn't make them a 400 yd rifle.

After 30+ years of reloading you tend to accumulate things like lots of J bullets you bought in bulk when they were cheap. I always like to be ahead of the curve and plan for circumstance that would be out of my control.

That's one reason I got into casting many years ago was so I could supply all of my bullet needs regardless of the political winds or components shortages of course you have to secure a good supply of lead and lead based alloys,provision to lube and size your bullets as well as gas check if needed or the ability to make your own checks and there is always paper patching.

Being that my shooing needs are mostly informal plinking,targets shooting small and large game hunting and the longest shot you can reliably take generally falls between 50 and 150 yds. cast bullets will do anything a J bullet will. I simply just don't need to shoot a premium bullet and a full case of powder at high velocity the majority of the time,if so I have plenty of loaded ammo for that purpose but it just not need.

The thing I like about cast bullets is I can tailor them for specific need as I have loads developed in sub-sonic,midrange and higher velocity with different cast bullets for each rifle. Many of the bullet designs and powders I use work in multiple cartridges. All my handguns are different calibers and dia. so there isn't much crossover there but my rifles are all 7.62 US and Russian caliber with the only variation being the groove to groove dia. fortunately and through sheer luck of the draw all my US calibers shoot the same dia. bullet very accurately as do the Russian SKS and Mosin rifles. I have no issues taking deer size game or smaller with cast bullet loads using the proper bullet,alloy combination and velocity. They simply kill just as well as any J bullet I've used if you do your part.

res45, I'm honored. You have been a member 6 years and made 6 posts. You found my post worthy of a response.

quote:

res45, I'm honored. You have been a member 6 years and made 6 posts. You found my post worthy of a response.

I spend a lot more time reading than I do posting these days. I lost track of many forums I used to post on or had joined after I was unemployed for almost two years,spent some time recovering from surgery,loosing my home,moving and getting back on my feet again.

res45--I hope things looking up. Hate to hear of someone willing to work falling on hard times.

My main use is reduced price handgun loads.

But in my 44 and 41 I use them for hunting.

I also use them for very reduce loads in some rifles.

I use them for hunting in my 45-70 a 460 gr at 1450fps kills well.

My 416 shoots a 315 gr at 1000fps into one ragged hole at 50. Very quite and pleasant to shoot cheap to.

A Lee hollow base 405 gr, with 8lb onionskin paper patch at 1800+ fps is like the fist of god on whitetails. 52 gr 3031 was Elmer Keith's favorite elk load in the 45-70, with a 405 gr bullet. Not for trapdoors! I size them thru a .452 pistol sizer, then wrap double onion skin, damp, and twist the tail into the hollow base. Coat with Lee alox for waterproofing, and rub moly on, to keep the paper from sticking to the case when fired. 1 1/2" at 100 yds if I don't flinch(scope bites).

When using cast for hunting you have to watch alloy hardness.
No more than 2% Antimony + 2% Tin!
If any harder boolits wont obturate in flesh and that lead to the three p's (Piss poor performance).

quote:

No more than 2% Antimony + 2% Tin!If any harder boolits wont obturate in flesh and that lead to the three p's (Piss poor performance).

Dane, with all due respect, you are incorrect... Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook shows a very perfectly mushroomed bullet cast from their Lyman #2 alloy, which contained both 5% antimony and 5% tin. I will agree the alloy is a beautiful way to waste very valuable tin, but that alloy is NOT too hard.

Bet they were hollow points?

Please read here:
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellExpansionOfCastHP.htm

A "normal" bullet needs to be softer to expand properly.

Dane;
I've had good luck with 45 caliber 400 grain cast bullets on our east coast white tails. I used wheel weights and a bit of tin air cooled.
I didn't have a chronograph but I was using a case full of IMR 4064.
The deer went a few steps and dropped, after putting a bullet through the heart, lungs. Never found the bullets.
The big flat nose does deliver a good bit of shock.

Jim

My "go to" alloy the past couple of years, about the time we got zinc in WW; is a local company. I get foundry pure 97% lead, 3% tin scrap. I weigh out 98lbs into my turkey cooker smelter, and add 2lbs of tin. I've shot thousands of rounds from .224" to .551" bullets, mostly NOE molds. Upwards of 2600fps in the 223 and over 2200 in my wildcat 550 Gibbs; and nearly every caliber in between I think.

There is a sense of accomplishment totally out of proportion to the amount of effort involved. As a young man growing up 6 miles from the Cardinals ballpark, I cast in the afternoon listening to Cubs games on WGN.
Evenings I could listen to the Cards on KMOX and size, lubricate, and load for my old 25 Krag and a 308W I had.

brings back memories...

I started casting when I was a broke teenager and couldn't afford to buy enough bullets to keep me shooting. I continued casting bullets simply because they work, and they are cheap enough I can take the neighbor kids shooting and let them shoot all they want.
As far as hunting with them, Rich is right, the old timers killed an awful lot of buffalo, and everything else with lead bullets. At least half of the deer and elk that I've shot have been with cast bullets, and if I ever draw a moose permit it will get a .45 caliber flat point as well.

I forgot to mention that my hunting failure with cast bullets was using a .243. I figure that was too small. I wont buy a large bore just so I can use cast. Most of the large bores with cast do have a rainbow trajectory. I find it more to my liking to use a flatter shooting smaller cal (which I already have) and use jacketed bullets. I certainly don't question that cast bullets will do the job.

Carpet
I had a lot of fun casting and shooting 243 bullets. I never tried them on critters, did punch a lot of paper and rang steel gongs.I've not made any for a long time, gave the rifle to a son-in-law.


Jim

Arkypete--I have given several rifles and shotguns to sons in law and grandson. Still have .243 and cast for it, but not for hunting. Also cast .22 and have used it for jackrabbit control.

Step sons, son-in-laws know they have come up in the world when they move from being target pointers to being given a rifle.
Target pointers are the guys who stand be the target and point at the holes when they appear.

jim

I'll tell you a story about loading 22Magnum RF some day...

I shoot cast in my 404 because it it so much cheaper especially if using light loads with say, Unique powder, You cannot do this with jacketed bullets. It is easy on the shoulder and gun and especially barrel wear virtually being eliminated.

I am conscious of the fact that if everyone with big bores shot mostly cast bullets and only used jacketed for hunting, then we would probably soon see many manufacturers of jacketed big bore bullets stopping or limiting production. This would be a shame now that there has been a real resurgence in big bore guns and cartridges not only for hunting but also for range and competition shooting.

I shoot cast for several reasons:

I have a BPCR rifle in 45-70 that is built for cast bullets. The 45-70 was originally a cast bullet cartridge (as were a lot of others).

Shooting cast is much cheaper than shooting jacketed, as has already been stated.

Finding an accurate cast bullet load is fun and gives a sense of accomplishment when achieved.

You cannot wear out a handgun barrel shooting lead, but you can darned sure do it with copper!

I sent the reamer print for a custom 6.5 Grendel Max I designed and built to Veral Smith (LBT) and had a mould made to suit and have a goat killing load from it for out to about 150 yds with the A Max for longer shots. Just over 2500 shots so far with under 250 being jacketed.
My 7x57 has just on 3000 shots fired, with just 475 being jacketed and the cast bullets have 32 goats and a few hares to its credit. A 160gn cast at 2400fps is good for 250 yds
Have just cast up 3000 x212gn bullets for a new 1879 -1896 Martini Enfield I am refurbishing and it wont have anything but cast through it.
404 has 950 shots with just 70 being jacketed with the 350 gn cast being either over 21gn Red Dot for 1400fps plinking. 63gn H4350 (1900fps) for general play or 74gn Varget (2365fps) for recoil enjoyment
I only shoot jacketed when a cast bullet is innapropriate either because of the distance of the shot on game or I don't have a 20 cal mould for the likes of my 20 VarTarg.

I actually started casting for one reason, and that was to feed the appetite of my Raging Bull in 454. That thing is just a hoot to shoot and accurate as all get out with a 300gr cast bullet.

When I originally got it I also had picked up some 1K of 452-260gr Mag JHP's that I really didn't have anything to shoot them in. I broke the barrel of the Bul in using those loaded to around 1600'ish FPS thinking if I was going to rock I might as well roll as well. Then I managed to pick up some Cast Performance lead and all that changed. I loaded those up to mid 1400's through around 1550 and they blew the groups I was getting form the jacketed out of the water at all distances.

I already had a Lee 4-20 pot, and half a bucket of old wheel weights so it wasn't a big jump to pick up the Lee 452300RF mold to get started with. Then I found a great deal on 2K of GC's and away I went.

I now have close to or just over a ton of alloy stashed between here and our little farm, along with almost two dozen molds, something for just about every caliber I own and in some several.

I ahve found it a blast to work up a good alloy not only for the standard SWC or WC's, but also for the several different HP molds I have as well. Having one alloy for HP is simply not an option if you have several calibers which run at different pressures and velocities. You have to have the alloy to match and that is where I am having fun.

I also hunt with my revolvers in 357, 41, 44 and the 454. Having a versital range of bullets and weights per caliber has always been my goal, and with the solid and HP molds I have now I feel no issues letting the bulk of my jacketed bullets sit on the shelf.

I started shooting by using jacketed bullets, back when consistent Minute-of-Deer suited my needs. Tried some cast bullets years later (in the very early 1960s)...and discovered how to full-length lead an '06 bore with one or two shots. Worked okay in my .45-70 Marlin "Pacific" Ballard, but they just didn't really catch my interest for rifles.

In the meantime, I had started buying but not making cast bullets for my pistols, first being the Dybro #6 for my .38's and .357s. Worked really well, so never went to jacketed bullets in those guns.

Then in about 1993 an old Friend (Dr. Jesse Miller) baited me into trying cast bullet rifle benchrest competition. Talk about addicting...!

There I learned how to make cast bullets that shot really, really well. So, I was hooked and started casting bullets for my hunting rifles too. Still worked very, very well. I ended up with over 120 moulds and handles, for just about every bore diameter imaginable, 3 lead pots including a Magma MasterCaster, and 10 different lube-sizers. One Star and one Saeco are all I really need though and I could get along just fine with only one, of either make.

I like casting because:

1 -the act of casting itself gives my anal-compulsive side an opportunity to be constructively functional

2 -it allows a lot of inexpensive shooting with all of my firearms

3-it pretty much guarantees useable supplies of needed bullets

4 -it saves a LOT of space, which is very nice in our new, smaller, home we have retired in.

And I'm not kidding about that one. I haven't bought a jacketed bullet in maybe 10 years, except a few to test fire my S&W M57 with, but because I had bought jacket bullets in large bulk orders when on sale to assure a supply, I have over 1 ton of them still lying around here. Had to have special steel overhead cabinets built completely around the interior perimeter of the 3-car garage, to put them all in/on.

But with cast bullets, I don't need to store all that stuff (and I really should sell the jacketed ones). My 120+ moulds fit inside one two-shelf wall cabinet 4' wide x 14" deep.
The lubri-sizer dies fit in one drawer of my work bench. The Master-Caster with it's 60-lb lead pot fits easily atop one corner of the work bench.

And I don't have to store ANY more bullets. When I want to load a batch of ammo, I fire up
the lead pot, make whatever size/weight bullets I need and, and load them. Any spares go back into the pot.

The ballistics are very nice too. For .30 for instance, I mainly use one of two different brass molds, either a 190gr. Eagan 30-A or a 210 gr. Eagan 30-ARD. Even from the little .30 BR case, around 30 grains of VV N-135 will give the 210s 2,300 f.p.s MV.

And of course bigger cases such as the .308 and the .30-'06 make higher velocities a piece of cake. The trick to getting higher velocities without leading is to balance the alloy, lube, shape, and diameter of the bullets for the gun being fired.

So why not use cast? These days I think a more searching and fun question is why bother to use jacketed bullets? The jacketed ones cost more, take more storage room, don't give the fun of making them yourself with inexpensive tools, and don't really give better results for most situations.

Began in 1973 with a 358429 mold & a M28 S&W. Worked so good I went with a Ruger SBH & 429421 in 1975. On to a Blackhawk 45 & RCBS 45-255-SWC in 1976. Everything still working fine I found no reason to change. Yes there was some jacketed stuff here & there. Rifles were different till 2001 then cast has pretty much took over except for the high speed stuff.

30/30, 30/06, 303, 45/70, 9MM, 38/357, 44 Spec/Mag, 45ACP/Colt all use cast around here mostly 'cause I can.

I started to cast bullets when Hornady decided to quit making the 410 gr 50 caliber Great Plains bullet for muzzleloaders. I had 30 boxes of the Hornadys on the shelf and went to work finding a suitable replacement. I tried the Lyman plains bullet. That was a miserable failure and the worst bullet made in my opinion. I went of to try the LEE REAL bullet and it was okay. Then I got a wild hair and decided to try paper patching. I got a Lee C-501-440-RF and some paper and went to work. It was a super success well beyond my expectations. The accuracy was outstanding but its performance on game was superior to any bullet I had ever shot in a muzzleloader. My work with paper patched bullets has led me to a place where I just don't need factory bullets for my Muzzleloaders. A lot of guys are following my lead and having outstanding success. Ron

quote:

A lot of guys are following my lead and having outstanding success.

Ron, I would really like to know how you "broke trail" on casting for muzzleloaders. It is nothing personal but there are a whole lot of guys out there that have been doing that since I was in grade school, and I am 59...

I am a late comer: I didn't start casting for my Whites until 2000. But I didn't get on here until 2005, if memory serves.

And if I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize. That statement above just sounds a bit smug to me...

Doubless,

I think he means young people, like the under forty crowd. Every other generation reinvents the wheel...

I have considered telling him about 1981 when friends, all of us rockshooters and traditionalists formed the Idaho Muzzleloaders Assn via a statewide conference call and petitioned the Idaho F&G for restricted equipment and special seasons. However, many of the younger people believe they are in the process of inventing all of these things.

A nephew asked me how we got along without cell phones and laptops. I told him we were busy inventing them so that his generation did not have to concern themselves with learning to properly compose sentences and learn to add and subtract.

I have no animus for Ron, he does very well at the hunting end with his equipment. I would love to spend an afternoon with him. I think I could learn a lot about how he goes about his hobby.

A gentleman named Schalke was paper patching his muzzleloading rifles for hunt and sport about 1860 or so. Schalke also made barrels and built rifles, both ML and cartridge. He taught some east coaster name Harry Melville Pope about that sort of stuff about twenty years down the road.

Guys I am well aware that muzzleloader were paper patched before me. I do read. It is my method that is the difference. I am paper patching the Lee 500 S&W bullet. I dry wrap them with 9# onion skin and I size them to fit the rifle. I harden my bullets to a level that I have deemed to be the most accurate for my rifles and have the best terminal affect on game. So when I say a lot of guys are following my lead Yes there are a lot of guys following my lead. And not just under 40. I have taught guys in their 70's how to paper patch my way and they are doing well with it.
So I will say again I realize there were guys doing it before me but I don't do it like they do it. I got my own method and it is for hunting not target. Doubless go to any book, or web page. Anywhere you want to go. Find any info about anybody paper patching the Lee 500 S&W bullet before I did. While your at it find someone that has killed as many animals as I have with them.
Rich, I don't appreciate being talked down to. I don't know if you were trying to insult me but you did. I will leave it at that. I will help anyone to learn to paper patch for their muzzleloaders. I don't tend to spend any time on people that insult me. Ron

quote:

Doubless go to any book, or web page. Anywhere you want to go. Find any info about anybody paper patching the Lee 500 S&W bullet before I did. While your at it find someone that has killed as many animals as I have with them.

Okay, so you took a new bullet and did the same thing men have been doing for over 100 years, with the same materials. So really, what did you do new? I would offer not much. You won't find it in a book but the reason why is obvious. So go write your book...

I, too, cast my ML bullets a bit hard, as it helps with the accuracy in my Whites. I also make my own lube, for whatever difference that makes... And yes, I size them to fit my rifles, just as you do.

What you are claiming you are doing a lot of us do. Each of us that shoots muzzleloaders, if we cast, work until we find something that shoots well in our rifles, then share it. I have sent muzzleloader bullets all over this country that have been used to kill elk, mule deer, and whitetails, but I don't need to climb to the top of a tree and shout about having done it or how many people I have helped by doing so. And I have had people tell me over the phone that my cast bullets for CF rifles out shot Montana Gold, Oregon Trail, and several others. But I don't need to put that in a public forum looking for a pat on the back, or post a YouTube video to talk about what I have done. Sure, it is nice to hear, but so what. It is just what I do.

It is just that not many of us trumpet it so readily as you appear to do. And I think you are a bit thin-skinned. You get defensive awfully quickly, in my estimation.

Winchester catalog of 1889 mentions that some of their PP loadings feature a 1:10 alloy, as do some of their swaged bullet loads.

Ed Harris has bullet mold designs that Lyman made in the early seventies in 30 caliber that had micro-grooves. He sized them, out of hard alloy (Lead/Tin/Antimony and heat-treated to varying degrees of hardness), lubed them, and then paper-patched them. He was shooting them in 300WM over 2500 fps with repeatable sub-moa accuracy at the 600yd targets in NRA Hi-Power. BTW, those were 10-shot groups, and over the rapid fire course, in under 60 seconds, and zero leading. In open competition, where there are no mulligans.

I shot the former Coors Schuetzen matches for several years in the early to mid 1990's. I had scores in the Top Ten in Scope/Iron Sights from the Bench divisions.

I shot in open competition about the same time period in sanctioned CBA matches.

I am not "talking down" to you. I merely suggested that you are, as does every other generation, reinventing the wheel.

You HAVE worked out a bullet prep system that provides suitable hunting accuracy for big game by your definition.

That said, unless you hunt a dozen different states, you cannot have legally run up the tally you claim. Idaho only allows one Mule Deer and one White Tail Deer in a calendar year.

Would you care to provide us with a total harvest, and number of hunting seasons your system has been employed by you?

Call it envy, or morbid curiosity if you choose; but I would really like to know.

regards,

Rich

If you shot in those contests I would love to see some pictures of your competitions and groups, or any documentation. Call it morbid curiosity if you choose.

Rich,I never gave a number that I have killed Rich. Why would I have to hunt a dozen states? Are you trying to form a witch hunt? My first thought was to tell you to go pound sand but I will honor your request.
I have killed 4 deer. 1 Antelope and 2 elk.
I personally watched my son shoot 3 deer and an antelope.
I watched my best friend shoot 2 deer and 2 antelope.
I have been sent letters from guys that are using my bullets and killing game. I will post some of the pictures of me and the guys I hunt with. Now I want you to post numbers and pictures Rich.
I have been hunting with a ML since 1978. I didn't start paper patching until 2005. Lets see yours. And call it curiosity but I want to know. You started out insulting and talking down to me. Now your trying to back me into a corner. This will be my last post on the subject since it is clear all you want to do it fight. I won't be wasting any more of my time with you.

Very nice pictures, and a great game record.

As far as Schuetzen, just contact www.ISS.org and comb the records book for the early 1990's. Find somebody with Precision Shooting Magazine issues from 1990-93 and read the articles I wrote and match results. Dean Miller built me a rifle, you may have heard of Miller actions...?

regards,

Rich