This is the bullet designed by 45 2.1 over on the CB forum. It's a damn good bullet. I have a big can full of them cast from the first original mould which was cut by BaBore. I make my own aluminum gas checks and they fit the bullets from the BaBore tight. The Hornadys are an easy press on. I haven't cast any bullets from the Mihec mould yet, but I did try one of the BaBore bullets in the cavity of Mihec's mould. Don't forget now these bullets have aged a long time thus grown; so of course they didn't just drop in the mould, but they got close enough that I can tell the mould is an exact duplicate of the BaBore mould except the nose meplat is a wee bit bigger.

I have shot the original bullet in my AR 10 I built and found a very good load that I'm down to a consistent 1/2 inch at 100 yards with and I haven't tweaked it all the way for that sweet spot yet. Pat I doesn't believe it because anything that he can't do is not doable by anyone else thus making them liars.

I seat the bullet so the case mouth is about 1/32 inch in front of the lube groove towards the nose. Meaning the lube groove is completed covered by the neck and the base of the bullet is at the base of the case neck. You can chamber rounds and extract them easy from my AR 10, but that may vary with other rifles especially bolt action rifles with the commercial 308 Winchester chamber.

I've tried the original bullet in the 06 and you have to seat it out too far that the lube groove is exposed and I believe it to be too light of a bullet for good results with the 06. It shot just okay, but I didn't tweak it, so now that I have the mould who knows maybe I can make it perform in the 06.

quote:

I have shot the original bullet in my AR 10 I built and found a very good load that I'm down to a consistent 1/2 inch at 100 yards with and I haven't tweaked it all the way for that sweet spot yet

"I" or "my" seventeen eighteen times in the above post along with the statement quoted above... Hmmmm... What? No pictures of targets? (I just hate it when I miscount...)

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

I have shot the original bullet in my AR 10 I built and found a very good load that I'm down to a consistent 1/2 inch at 100 yards with and I haven't tweaked it all the way for that sweet spot yet

"I" or "my" seventeen times in the above post along with the statement above... Hmmmm... What? No pictures of targets?

I guess since you're so bright you've missed the target posted in two different post here in Cast Bullets more then a few times.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

I have shot the original bullet in my AR 10 I built and found a very good load that I'm down to a consistent 1/2 inch at 100 yards with and I haven't tweaked it all the way for that sweet spot yet

"I" or "my" seventeen times in the above post along with the statement above... Hmmmm... What? No pictures of targets?

Ya know, there are people who just don't get it. The CBA can do it... why can't someone else? The CBA, in the Jan/Feb issue of "The Fouling Shot" lists their current records. For 100 yards (5 shot groups) the production rifle small group is 0.2445", the aggregate for 3 groups is 0.4224". For heavy rifle small group is 0.154", the aggregate for 3 groups is 0.278". These are just a small group of people and do not represent all the rest of the people who have no interest in heavy barrel bolt guns or shooting matches. Now you tell us just how someone with a match grade barrel by Lothar Walther (German made in this case) on a proven system (ARs in other calibers shoot much better than this example) can't do what he said..... I might be that YOUR skills and knowledge are not up to the level his is.

Mine shoots groups so small I have to soak the targets in hot water to swell them up big enough to be measured.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Mine shoots groups so small I have to soak the targets in hot water to swell them up big enough to be measured.

Ray,

That's a good one! You could stack newspaper behind them and do an expansion test as you check your group. I knew you would come up with a good idea.

No targets again?
No pictures of said bullet?
Talk is cheap, especially on the internet, where it appears this doofus does all of his shooting.

This clown would hold every record in the CBA if he ever showed up at a match.

None of the "Three Stooges" have ever posted any proof anywhere that I have seen.

45 2.1: I get the FS. No mention of Lothar barrels in the match equipment lists either...

No targets again?
No pictures of said bullet?
Talk is cheap, especially on the internet, where it appears this doofus does all of his shooting.
Your shit is WHERE, never seen it. His is posted here and at Cast Boolits. Look beyond those blinders your wearing and clean up your act. Very un-Christian like behavior from you. Your also the guy who says he wrote for Whom and likes to name drop. Never heard of you.

This clown would hold every record in the CBA if he ever showed up at a match.
Most of the CBA crowd i've shot with are good fellas, but with your verbage, I think they'd wash your mouth out with soap.

45 2.1: I get the FS. No mention of Lothar barrels in the match equipment lists either...
That's their choice...... or haven't you realized that yet.

Rich,

About Lothar barrels. The CEO of that company in Atlanta, GA is a personal friend of mine. I asked him about not seeing LW barrels in the many different big matches. Let's see how to explain this and get it across to you right. He won't cater to the match crowd. That is sort of like he won't sell them a barrel for that purpose. Now you and I both know that you could order a barrel and he wouldn't know where it was going to be used. I asked him the reason. He said they are anal, finicky, and whole of other things and he just did not want the hassle if they think they found something wrong with the barrel. LW is one of the oldest and leading barrel manufacturers in the world and there's no reason why they wouldn't shoot as well as the other top brands.

As for targets my 7.62 NATO targets have been posted here in various posts and more then once. Just got a pm from another CB member who is very well noted over there that recently had gotten his 308 down to an inch at high velocity and still working on the sweeter spot. He wishes to remain anonymous because of A-Holes like you, Pat I, Once-a-fool, swheeler, doubless,and gibby monkey hassling, hecking, pm'ing, calling them liars, requesting a movie produced by Steven Spielberg to show the shooting, etc. them.

quote:

No targets again?
No pictures of said bullet?
Talk is cheap, especially on the internet, where it appears this doofus does all of his shooting.
Your shit is WHERE, never seen it. His is posted here and at Cast Boolits. Look beyond those blinders your wearing and clean up your act. Very un-Christian like behavior from you. Your also the guy who says he wrote for Whom and likes to name drop. Never heard of you.

This clown would hold every record in the CBA if he ever showed up at a match.
Most of the CBA crowd i've shot with are good fellas, but with your verbage, I think they'd wash your mouth out with soap.

45 2.1: I get the FS. No mention of Lothar barrels in the match equipment lists either...
That's their choice...... or haven't you realized that yet.

Well, at least I now know who carries the #2 Smokin J fan club card... he carries the #1 himself.

You are really one to talk about Christianity and washing someone's mouth out with soap, especially considering you choose to use profanity yourself.

I have your best buddy on ignore, but I suspect by now he has called me some less than polite term because I have chosen to challenge what he said here and other places. You know, it is just like Bartsche said: "Talk is cheap; it takes money to buy whiskey."

No photos in this thread to back up his self-indulging, pompous claims of superiority, as someone else has apparently also noted, based on your previous post. And he hs you to defend him... How delightful! He gets challenged and rather than post the proof to back up what he says, claims the proof is "on here and at CB numerous times". Well, here is a headline for you: Some of us don't play around on the CB website, and if it has been posted "numerous times on here" it should be very short work to post a link to the supporting thread, like is normally done.

I like to learn, and like shooting cast. It would be very nice and quite helpful to see an actual bullet, and targets, that will routinely shoot .5 MOA from an AR platform... But do I get to see that? Not on your life.

And you wonder why we doubt...

These people are just like the liberal news media distorting the facts and lying to the people. All this stuff has been discussed on the CB forum and all who wanted the knowledge were told how to do it. Instead the naysayers, and you know who they are, ranted and raved until the management and moderators on CB closed the threads. So nobody got the full schooling. The naysayers want to come to your home and watch you shoot, can you imagine that? The targets of my 1/2 group 7.62 NATO are posted here on the Cast Bullet section. I've told people the powder, loads, the bullets, etc.. CBA people can do this, but again, the naysayers can not, so they cause trouble and spread lies. I think another reason it angers them is it wasn't their doings and they are not in the lime light. Oh how they love the lime light.

So anyways this is for you Doubless, one of your chronies will tell you I posted it. First the bullet is 30 Silhouette, single grease groove, weight in the 180 grain bracket. I'm using a duplex load with H4198 and main charge of the slow WC 867. This brings the powder level to the base of the bullet so no need for a filler to keep the powders positioned. I use my normal for me reloading tricks on the cases and also the sizing of the bullet. The bullets are loaded so that I can extract a loaded cartridge without the bullet sticking in the bore. I test loads till I find a sweet spot then I keep repeating the best load to insure it's consistent, which this one here is. The lube is my own made "soap lube" Geargnasher can tell you all about it. I'll try picture two bullets after the target. About the target I don't buy targets, I shoot too much to spend the money on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I like to learn, and like shooting cast. It would be very nice and quite helpful to see an actual bullet, and targets, that will routinely shoot .5 MOA from an AR platform... But do I get to see that? Not on your life.

And you wonder why we doubt...

Hmmmmmm, lets take the CBA as an example. They post their record groups; they post the equipment list with rifle, load and bullet; they don't post pictures. They also promote cast bullet shooting. Now just why would anybody do anything else........ I suppose because someone behind a keyboard could heckle them.

You might want to turn him back on if you want to see some pictures.

Do You think no pictures of the record groupa on the CBA site,or in the magazine,might be because those are shot under competitive conditions WITH WITNESSES,,,I know that's a foreign concept to you and your disciples.. Nate

Smokin: You might want to check with your good buddy in Atlanta re:why the website is advertising /soliciting sales of their so-called competition barrels...???? CEO of Lothar Walther, MY Axx.! !. That's a importers website.....

Sorry Nate, you're a new member, no doubt a plant so I'm not responding to you, bye!

Smokin: That's OK by me.. I'm sending a screenprint of your post re: Walther barrels to your good buddy in Atlanta,B4 you can take it down..We'll soon know what he thinks of your promotional efforts,,,Nate

Soory,I forgot to ask...What name will he know you under ????--Nate

i'm gonna go head and speak up now.
that boolit looks similar to the one i am using but mine is designed for the 308 bolt gun.
i have a longer bearing area in front of the lube groove and an angle cut to match the riflings starting angle as well as fill the free-bore.
my armalite ar-30 [with a 1-10 twist barell] is the rifle i am using right now.

the p.m. joe speaks of is mine.
i am runfiverun on the boolits sight b.t.w.
straight out of the gate i went over 2200 fps and pulled in 5 shot groups with every one of them touching each other.

if you guy's wanna do the same things you have to read,listen and do the damn work involved.
gear and i laid out a 4 or 5 post instruction manual to get things started for anyone that wanted to listen.
it took us a couple of hours [and about 15 p.m's] to get things laid out so it made sense.
and the whole thread fell off the page in 2 day's.

it's linked in my sticky [something that might help] over there at boolits.
this stuff takes thinking,work, and effort.

read about little girl taking second place at the nevada state cast shoot with her 9 twist AR at velocities in the 2700 fps range.
i have laid that out at the CBA sight.
or about using the .358 win for deer huntin at over 2300 fps.
jesus where do you think these numbers come from.

there are many that can do it,it's generally the ones posting in things like sticky threads and doing continous work with alloys,and lubes,and case thicknesses,and mold measurements,and alloy manipulation.

it sure as hell ain't the ones using lyman/lee molds hoping that somebody screwed up and got something right for once.

even now joe is working to improve things.
stuff isn't perfect and he want's to learn something new that might make stuff better.....
minor rant over...done.

has anybody besides me noticed that the purported group shot with cast bullets does not have any lube rings around the bullet holes? First alleged target shot with case I have even seen. More likely shot with a #2 lead pencil.

For those of you who may not have noticed, joe's Number One Butt Buddy is 45 2.1. Mark Twain once commented that profanity is the sign of either a feeble intellect, or extreme mental laziness...
Number Two is Geargnasher
Lamar is moving up to Number Three with a bullet (I'm sorry about that, couldn't help myself).

Ask joe about any cast bullet websites he has been banned from recently.

I am heading for Reno for the SCI Convention. You three stooges play nice while I'm gone and I'll bring you some souvenirs back.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
has anybody besides me noticed that the purported group shot with cast bullets does not have any lube rings around the bullet holes? First alleged target shot with case I have even seen. More likely shot with a #2 lead pencil.

For those of you who may not have noticed, joe's Number One Butt Buddy is 45 2.1. Mark Twain once commented that profanity is the sign of either a feeble intellect, or extreme mental laziness...
Number Two is Geargnasher
Lamar is moving up to Number Three with a bullet (I'm sorry about that, couldn't help myself).

Ask joe about any cast bullet websites he has been banned from recently.

I am heading for Reno for the SCI Convention. You three stooges play nice while I'm gone and I'll bring you some souvenirs back.

Rich,

Why don't you quit beating around the bush and call me a liar saying I shot that with jacketed bullets?

Ask Lamar and geargnasher about my lube and they will explain your question to you. It's a lube that is entirely different then most lubes in use today. Oh that won't work as now they are liars too.

About banning, ask swheeler, gibby, Pat I., and Onceafool about their banning from Accurate. While you are at ask Pat I why he isn't regional director of District 4 for the Cast Bullet Association. That's bigger then being banned.

Your post was very Christian your hypocrite.

Talk has always been cheap. The internet made it CHEAPER THN DIRT... nate

Anyone else notice how closely this socalled 30 Silhouette bullet resembles Lee's 30-HBC-200..perhaps a click or two shorter..The Lee bullet couldn't possibly be any good because it wasn't designed by the High Priest in the Temple of Cast Bullet Design..45 2.1-----Nate

quote:

Originally posted by nateDon'tgo:
Anyone else notice how closely this socalled 30 Silhouette bullet resembles Lee's 30-HBC-200..perhaps a click or two shorter..The Lee bullet couldn't possibly be any good because it wasn't designed by the High Priest in the Temple of Cast Bullet Design..45 2.1-----Nate

Yes, why yes it looks like an exact copy! Beat it troll.

Looks like maybe 40-50 second job with Tom Myers software to go from Lee 30-HBC-200 to the High Priests' miracle bullet...BTW, When I google up 30 HBC, up pops a post in which you are beggin for samples of the 30 HBC like a tired street hustler..That where the one in your pic above came from..?????? Nate

rich:
i'll tell you why gear and i are moving up the ladder pretty quickly.
it could be because we have worked together and figured a lot of this out..
not everything we do works.
we have been working on lubes together for over a year,yeah there have been people taking notice.
some of the stuff we have done and tried has changed a lot of the things we have done for the better.
you test enough and talk to someone doing the same thing enough and you start to figure it out.

joe has a pretty dang good lube.
i have been working it from a slightly different angle as has gear.

it's funny what you can get away with if you pull out some measurements,and think,and burn some powder.
and aren't afraid to make a mistake.
nobody is gonna hold your hand or do it for you,but i would bet they would give you help and advice if you asked for it.

pick a rifle and do the work...

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar: pick a rifle and do the work...

That's the problem Lamar. The two trolls can't do anything for themselves but run their pie hole. If it's not buy-able, it will escape them.

yeah i figured his ignorance when he said the lube on the paper thing.
i shoulda stopped right there.
lube on the paper would indicate a target 3" or less away.
or a lube purge flyer, or a cold barell shot to the high side.
and it definatly is not a characteristic of the lube joe makes...

i'm sure rich would know that if he used something other than what he get's from the store.
or read eutetic's write up on the core theory in the quest thread.

Here's a post and target from tomme boy over on CB:

Looks like it might work.

FC brass min. trim length. Neck sized. Neck expanded with 310 expander.
IMR 4895 31 gr.
Seated at 2.528"

Boolit sized to 0.310"
Range lead mixed 3-1 lino. Added a little tin.
Lube Tac1
Gas check from Blammer

Distance to target 100 yds.


First I'd like to tell tomme "Good work and good shooting!!!"

Now tomme didn't tell us the velocity, but from the powder charge I'd say it was in the 2000 fps bracket. Note gibeon monkey that the twist is a 10 twist.

So what does Idahosharpshooter have to say about this and note there's no lube on the holes? Hey Natedon'tgo it was shot with 45 2.1's High Priest in the Temple of Cast Bullet Design 40-50 second job with Tom Myers software to go from Lee 30-HBC-200 to the High Priests' miracle bullet

So what does it take to finish second at this Nevada State Cast bullet shoot ?? Range is ---Yds/meters ? Group sixe is x.xx ??? ----Nate

quote:

Originally posted by nateDon'tgo:
So what does it take to finish second at this Nevada State Cast bullet shoot ?? Range is ---Yds/meters ? Group sixe is x.xx ??? ----Nate

You will find that info here if you search their site:

Nevada Cast Bullet Association

I've had about enough of this. None of you asinine trolls have learned how to build accurate cast bullet loads for your rifles. When I started learning how to do it, and it has taken me several years to even get to a halfway-decent point in the game, suddenly all the no-can-do shitstains start turning on ME and calling me a liar, fanboy, etc., and Lamar too, simply because we listened, learned, cogitated, experimented endlessly, interpreted our results, asked questions, cogitated and experimented some more, and started figuring this HV cast shooting thing out.

If you are too stupid or arrogant to take the time to learn how to do it, then fuck you, and fuck off. Lamar and I (much to the chagrin of some) have put a lot of effort into shedding light on how we get accuracy from our rifles, much better accuracy and higher velocity than most cast bullet shooters believe is possible, and our efforts to explain some of the tricks have been rewarded with not a single hint of curiosity from any of you except for a new round of name-calling. We took a lot of the mystery out of it, just as 45 2.1 and Joe have been doing for years on the Castboolits site, but nobody wants to learn, nobody listens. The techniques have been explained so many times it's pitiful, but it seems that those too lazy to find it just want to say it's "walking the rice paper" or make some joke about how it's all a bunch of secrecy that none of us will share. well, we've BEEN sharing it, but nobody wants to sit down for a couple hours, ponder what we've said, and then go sit at their loading bench and shooting bench and figure out what it means.

What many of you trolls don't know, or don't realize even though some of it has been posted, is how much work it sometimes takes to get a rifle to shoot well with cast. For example, 45 2.1 and I have been on Joe's journey to get his M1 Garand to shoot from day one. He's been fighting it since early last year, trying four or five bullet designs (even shooting some bullets I gave him), two different gas checks, seating depths, working on the rifle itself, getting a scope mount worked out, establishing baseline accuracy with jacketed, etc. He even had to learn a couple of new tricks to get it to shoot, and believe me, he had quite a few groups that were, as he put it "shotgun patterns". Finally, bit by bit over a period of months, he solved the problems with the rifle and the load and would you believe it, well, I'll let HIM tell you how well he's got it shooting now, but none of you would believe it anyway. Joe used up something like 12 linear feet of aluminum flashing making 6.5mm gas checks before he finally got the Swedish Mauser to shoot those tiny, high-velocity bugholes that all you love to call him a liar about.

It isn't magic, it takes a lot of knowledge and experimentation with each gun before getting things just right. Lamar, Eutectic, and I have been working on lubes for over a year solid. We've built guns, had custom moulds made to fit our rifles, experimented with case prep and loading techniques, fiddled with alloys, you name it and have learned through doing and changing and doing some more what really makes a rifle shoot, and what makes it mediocre or even terrible. I even have a bone-stock 336 Marlin that I worked with until it will put five into a 7/16" group at a hundred yards at 2100 fps. Everybody told me leverguns won't shoot tiny groups, especially not MicroGroove Marlins with cast bullets, I set out to prove them wrong, and I did, and I'm not the first one to do it, either. No, I'm not going to post pictures, you all will just have to take my word for it because I don't really care if you believe me or not. If you want to learn how I did it, go read some of the threads Lamar mentioned above on the Castboolits forum. It's all about static fit, dynamic fit, alloy choice, pressure curve, and a few little tricks and methods to managing each of those. Oh, and CONSISTENCY in everything you do.

I don't really care if any of you trolls ever figure this out or not, but for the love of God if you can't do it and are too lazy or inept to learn how, leave the rest of us alone, because I assure you we aren't making this stuff up and posting about it so we can get a non-stop blast of shit from those who are still stuck in the Kindergarten-level of cast bullet shooting. We do this and post about it because we enjoy it and like to share and discuss our experiences with others doing or attempting to do the same thing, it makes us all better at it. If that bothers you, well that's too bad.

Notice that Alberta Canuck didn't call Joe and 45 2.1 liars in all the other threads, that's because he's a top CBA competitor and knows what is possible if you take a sincere approach to learning this art. You trolls don't have a clue.

Gear

It appears that tomme boy over on CB is getting there too and not with a 14 twist 308, but a 10 twist.

Gear I'll bet you $10 Natedon'tgo will have some snide remark to make about your post. If not him then Idahosharpshooter or Doubless.

I'm waiting for someone to accuse Tomme Boy of lying too, since those holes are clean-cut and have minimal smudge marks on them.

That's ok, though, people can think what they want, I have a pretty good idea of the information level to which he's been exposed privately in the last few months by some of us. Not a bad group for a beginner, no?

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
I'm waiting for someone to accuse Tomme Boy of lying too, since those holes are clean-cut and have minimal smudge marks on them.

That's ok, though, people can think what they want, I have a pretty good idea of the information level to which he's been exposed privately in the last few months by some of us. Not a bad group for a beginner, no?

Gear

I thought it was a very very good group. I may even have to try some of that 4895 powder. I'm not like gibby, I don't have 10 55 gallon drums of it or half a ton of Dacron. At the moment I don't really have much of it at all.

quote:

Originally posted by nateDon'tgo:
Smokin: That's OK by me.. I'm sending a screenprint of your post re: Walther barrels to your good buddy in Atlanta,B4 you can take it down..We'll soon know what he thinks of your promotional efforts,,,Nate

By the way troll Nate how did this work out for you????

I imagine Woody got him lined out in short order.

Gear

ooohhh ya.. tommy boy.
well,,yeah.
if you wanna know what lube he used and such i could tell ya.
i have a sample of his boolits sitting on the shelf in my reloading room right now.
i also done a hardness test on his alloy mix for him.
he is just learning the art, and is floundering a bit on his own right now.
he'll get some help..
he did make it a lot further by at least measuring and by trying something than by not doing anything.

umm nate if you noticed i didn't even turn in a target.
i did not want to hear about using "target" rifles for a fun shoot.
yeah allen and buckshot gave me a lot of grief over not turning in a target for either my ruger 223 or my ar-30.
i know al seen my ar-30 target before i got it into the shooting bag.

btw it takes being out shot by your mother, with a new load in HER 30-06 running along at 2150 with a lube not suited to the 100+ heat we weren't expecting.
explaining those medium/high velocity groups opening to @ 1-3/4" to them was quite frustrating.

but the whole trip was based around learning something to further the knowledge of how lubes react in ambient heat.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
ooohhh ya.. tommy boy.
well,,yeah.
if you wanna know what lube he used and such i could tell ya.
i have a sample of his boolits sitting on the shelf in my reloading room right now.
i also done a hardness test on his alloy mix for him.
he is just learning the art, and is floundering a bit on his own right now.
he'll get some help..

~~~ he did make it a lot further by at least measuring and by trying something than by not doing anything. ~~~

Kinda sez it all doesn't it...

Lamar: Google didn't find anything @ the link SmokinJ posted..Are you talking about the Nevada Chapter of the C.B.A.? Couldn't come up with any website for them,either..Are you saying to say the second place group was l.75" ?? Then The distance was 2 or 3 hundred yards,I suppose ... //Nate