I was recently asked..."Why nose first size?"

This is an interesting question and needs discussion.

Orygun Mark and I have been messing with adapters to allow the use of sizer dies for nose first sizing for about a year now. We have (or at least I have) learned a lot.

There are several pitfalls in sizing.

First are the sizers themselves which over the years develop play between the ram and the sizer.

The sizer dies are not nearly perfect. The older Lymans and Lachmillers with the extreme entrance angle are extremely destructive to bullets and will nearly always shave on one side. Many of the newer RCBS sizers are out of round and produce bullets that are shaved on one side.

Then there are the top punches which are made very shoddily and add to misalignment. Contributing to the problem, they ring the nose and don't always fit.

We then take a bullet and put it into all of these problem areas and base first size it. Even seating the gas check causes nose distortion....always. At least to some degree. Add an oversize bullet, cold lube and the nose may be bumped or bent as much as .004" inch.

I know this happens as I have tested nose diameters and seen this much distortion. I also know that bullet noses bend as I've tested them on a turning plate with a light and also on parallel precision rollers.

The best of sizing methods is to use a nose first sizer. Seat the check and size the bullet and then come back and lube in a base first luber. There is very little or no distortion in the nose or bending with this process...even with .22s and .25s.

The Lee nose first sizers are good and if you only load for one caliber, they are the way to go. For those of us who load for more than one caliber, it gets quite expensive to purchase a different Lee for all the calibers that we load for. Besides, many of the diameters are custom which involved more expense and time.

Nose first sizing is the way to go for good bullets and Mark's sizer adapter is the answer in my estimation and experience./beagle

I sure do agree with all you've said, beagle!

'Cept the part about the expense of the Lee sizer dies. The Lee push-throughs are about $13 at Midway, compared to $20+ for the other brands that fit into a lubrisizer.

But, if you use a lubrisizer to do the lubing, then of course you already have the sizer die, and buying the Lee would be an additional expense.

What I like most about the Lee sizers is how easy they are to open up a couple thou. Couple minutes with an electric drill and some sandpaper on a stick, and you can easily open a .309 sizer to .311.

I grant you, though, that it is a real PITA to store 20-30 of the things. I finally bored some holes in a 1 x 6 that they'd slip into, and hung that like a shelf near my reloading bench. Not real pretty, but functional.

[ 09-27-2003, 23:14: Message edited by: grumble ]

Well guys, you're probably right sizing in the lubersizer does bent and damage the boolit. But guess what? I have about four rifles shooting one hole at 100 yards, various calibers, and I just load the damn shells for them like I'm loading condoms for informal plinking. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'd be wasting my time trying to size nose first with the great results I'm getting and I'll be you fellows won't be getting much more bragging accuracy if you go through all the trouble you're describing. Also I think the lubrisizers do a better job of putting the gaschecks on better then the Lee sizers. My CZ 550 30-06 shoot the Lyman 314299 sized to .310 into one nice little .500 hole at 100 yards without any regards to weighing the boolits or nose sizing them first. By the way they are about .313 to .314 coming out of the mould and I'm sizing them to like .310 with a gascheck so if the damage or benting is as great as beagle says it sure as hell isn't hurting my shooting. So for me, why fix something that isn't broke. The less steps I have to do to my ammo to process it the better. I'm beginning to think alot of you have too much time on your hands. If so why don't you draw up some plans of a sizer die for rifles that not only size the case, expand the neck out to the proper diameter, but also put that bell or flare in it like a Lyman M die? Just my 2 cents

Joe

Star, are you going to be taking those four rifles to the East shoot, or the next Winnemucca shoot? Whichever, you should let 'em know so they can set up a special event for you.

Nobody has yet talked about the nose first sizing punch and modified sizing die offered by Hanned. Anybody has any experience with this approach?

Charles...I beleive they're using just an ordinaly flat top punch in a luber and the specially modified Stillwell dies in the same manner we're doing or that you do in a Lee and then coming back and lubing. They're doing this in a Lyman or RCBS sizer rather than a press like we are.

I have gone to flat top punches for many of my sizing/lubricating operations anyway and they work well on all but RN bullets and spitzers.

The Stillwel dies are modified with a gradually tapered leade as we're doing with the exception of his dies for the Free Checks which have an exagerated lead in taper.

In fact, the Lyman 450 can be used for nose first sizing by removing the center puunch in the sizing die and making a push rod of the appropriate diameter to fit in place of the top punch. You just push the bullet all the way through. Of course there's no lubing during this operation as there's no way of controlling lube pressure as in the Star. In addition, the reloading press gives more leverage in sising oversize bullets./beagle

Grumble...here's the 7mm-08 groups fired out of a 18 1/2 inch barrel SAKO Mannlicher carbine at 100 yds. Lyman 150 grain loverin gascheck over 28 grs of 844 surplus powder with dacron wad.

Joe....many of us old codgers do probably have too much time on our hands. Gives us time to think about stuff and try different things out and help other people.

Hell, if I had rifles that shoot like yours' I'd stop going to the range and sit back and glaot or dominate the competitive world.

Unfortunately I don't so I have to work and strive for every little fraction of an inch of group that comes my way.

Besides, I like talking with and helping other cast shooters. Some damn fine fellows on this and other cast forums./beagle

Beagle...I'm an old codger too. I didn't mean anything by what I posted to offend anyone. I started out as a young kid as a rifleman. I bought good quality rifles from the start, or at least tried to. I wasn't satisfied with them unless they shot a very small group or a ragged hole. This was with condoms. Then I discovered handguns and about gave up on rifles. Then cast boolits in handguns. Then cast boolits in rifles.
I had this silly notion that cast boolits had to shoot the same small groups as the condoms did. Those rifles I spoke of here in the other didn't shoot those kind of groups right off. I had to really do so work to get there. Basically saying that I got those groups with alot of work and experimenting but by no means did I use any benchrest tricks to get them except for the CZ 30-06. For it I neck sized only. None of the rifles are benchrest rifles, they are off the shelf standard rifles, except of course the military rifles and they need no explanation. I had a hard time at first getting the surplus 844 powder to shoot. I'm willing and have passed alot of what I've learned along on this board. Some of my experiments I stumbled into. An example is the 7mm-08 round in my SAKO Carbine. The SAKO has a very short throat and the 150 gr Lyman loverin boolit was too long for it without the boolit going way into the powder capacity of the shell. So I bought the Lee 135 gr 7mm boolit mould and shot it. It shoots them pretty good. Then one day for the hell of it I said I'm going to load those long 150 gr Loverins deep. Lo and behold you see the results. I would have never thought they would have shot that ragged hole being a cast boolit seated that deep into the powder and case. Another thing, since I have always sighted my rifles in with condom boolits, that's where I expected my cast boolits to shoot. I do a similar thing with my handguns in that I never accepted the normal 25 yard test as I've always shot them at 50 and 100 yds. Again not meaning to offend anyone and definately not bragging. I'm sure any of your fellows could shoot the same groups with my rifles and ammo.

Joe

If I wasn't working full time so I can pay for my hobbies, make sure the wife has a nize car, feed my retirement plan, keep food on the table and other essentials I would be making reloadin stuff full time. By nose sizing first I don't change the nose on my bullets. I just got tired of buying Lee stuff when I already had sizer dies that I had honed out to whatever size I needed. I have found my groups to be shrinking, HP noses not being changed and seating gas checks easier.
I have found the RCBS aluminum decapping dies are the easiest to modify. I know also use an aluminum lock ring to help strenghten the body and a set screw in it to hold the die in.
When I can retire I will be making this stuff and no real profit as not having CNC equipment makes the job time consuming. Orygun

The Star sizer. like the differnce between night and day. BD

Beagle, the RCBS dies are ok. It's the lube sizer that causes the bullets to be sized crooked. I was having a lot of trouble with one boolit that needed a little sizing. I removed the die from the press and used my reloading press to push boolits through it. They came out perfect. But when I put the die back in the lube sizer, they would be sized more on one side. I bought the Lee push through dies and problem solved. From now on I will only use the lube sizer to lube boolits that don't need sizing and to seat gas checks. Both the RCBS and Lyman tools will distort boolits.

bfrshooter ... your RCBS sizer may be bad but my Lyman sure as hell isn't. That's like you buying a Ford and getting a bad one and telling everyone not to ever buy a Ford because they aren't any good. You should calle RCBS and send your sizer back. I'll tell you something about the RCBS/LYMAN type sizers...don't ever keep the nose punch in with that set screw that is on the ram piston...instead put a glob of bullet lube on it as this will let it float alittle bit should it be out of alignment. I use Javelina lube and boy it holds the punch in really good.

Joe

Sometimes it's the first simple thing you try that works the best. Anything you do afterwards ( like neck sizing, belling, neck expanding, other sizes,bullets, powders etc) doesn't work nearly as well. Maybe you hit THE bullet,dies, rifle that is PERFECT just out of pure dumb luck. Who knows? Its nice when it happens and it has happened to me alot, BUT at other times I have had to work my a## of to get good results. The 4570 cost me a couple thousand in guns and components plus 8 months of testing before I found out what to do in most any rifle to get that kind of accuracy. To whit it revolves around: bullet fit, temper and alignment in the chamber and a balanced load. Sounds simple, doesn't it? It's not, believe me. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw!

Gents: the discussion above is excellent. the free floating nose punch idea is genius. i seriously anticipate improvement in my own humble efforts from using it. thanks to all, ned

"I'm sure any of your fellows could shoot the same groups with my rifles and ammo."

Joe, I don't think so. Half inch groups and better with lead is function of the shooter. Like Beagle alludes to, you need to consider competition. ... felix

Yep, this is the case. Let me shoot your nice guns and accurate loads and I can get 4-6" groups out of them all day long. Of course, I am a naturally talented "rotten shot" with a rifle. It's just a skill I was born with, nothing to brag about.

Oldfeller

Starmetal,
Not to dispute your excellent results with base first sizing, but I have had serious problems with nose-bumping/bending while sizing soft bullets in smaller calibers. The problem is less noticeable with harder alloys, but these days I prefer to shoot WW, and size the air-cooled bullets before oven-treating.

The soft bullets would bump up in an unpredictable and inconsistent manner. If I adjusted the seating depth correctly for the "average" nose, then the fatter noses would refuse to chamber, while the skinnier noses would have to jump to reach the rifling. This was especially annoying in a TC contender where the fat noses kept the action from closing 100%, resulting in a failure to fire. Then, when I tried to extract the unfired round, the bullet would stick in the barrel and have to be beaten out with a cleaning rod. The occasional bullet would end up banana shaped, as well. Nose-first sizing eliminates these problem.

I have been using a homemade push thru sizer, but the RCBS/Lyman lube-sizer should do yeoman service as a nose-first sizer on flat point bullets, with an appropriate nose punch, preferably a punch that embraces the base of the bullet for better alignment. After sizing the bullets, it would only be necessary to swap nose punches in order to run the bullets through again to apply lube.

mountaingun...I'm wondering if, with your softer boolits, if you were sizing them down alot and that is the reason they distorted. The idea is to "try" to get them to drop from the mould as close as possible to firing size. Look what Buckshot and I have done, we've taken really really bigger boolits and sized them drastically to other smaller sizes with really good results. One in case is the Austrian 8x56R Model 95. That rifle has a groove diameter of around .329=.330 or so and it kind of an oddball. We've both sized .358 boolits down and fired them with decent results. I will try some test in the area you speak of and see if my base first is bending the boolits any. Don't worry about disagreeing with me, this is how we all learn. I"m just fortunate that at the moment I'm having good luck with what I'm shooting. Just got my new 260 Rem back on an Arisaki action...let's see how I do with it!!!

Joe

One of the problem bullets was a bit oversize, sizing down a couple of thou. That is not unusual and not harmful, except for the nose problem.

On the other hand, another problem bullet was actually smaller than the die, so the only resistance was the force required to size the gas check, and to keep the bullet pushed snug against the "I" pin while lubing. The bullet was designed to be a snug fit in the rifle's throat so even minor bumping would cause chambering problems.

Starmetal,
"One in case is the Austrian 8x56R Model 95. That rifle has a groove diameter of around .329=.330 or so and it kind of an oddball. We've both sized .358 boolits down and fired them with decent results."

What size grease groove did you end up with. I size .336 and .338 bullets down to .331-.332 for my 8x56R's and I barely have grease grooves left even when I lube them before resizing. I use WW's and approx 1% tin.
I've been working on a die to put GC shanks on 35 cal bullets and I had to make it .359 so I didn't bump up the bullets and make nose punches that fit the noses properly. When I made it .362 the first time around the bullet shortened and got fatter fast. Now they don't do that. Too much sizing will mess up bullets. It took several tries to bore out a lee nose first die to .339 that would also seat gas checks with out messing up the bullet. Bored out a .309 to accomplish this. The lead-in had to be just right.
Orygun

Orygun Mark...Before Lee came out with the correct bullet mould for the Austrian I was using a Lee mould for a .338 boolit. Now when I sized that down to fit the Austrian there wasn't much of a lube groove left but apparently carried enough because it didn't lead up the bore. The 357's I sized down were from a 150 gr RCBS mould as had quite a deep lube groove so it ended up still having a substantial groove. Hope this helps. Now that Lee has the correct mould no sense in messing with the oversized ones.

Joe

Joe,
Now I understand as pistol bullets would have a deep enough grease groove to size down. My Budapest needs a bullet at least .331 to shoot good and my other M95 needs at least a .330 dia bullet. The Lee mould I have borrowed dropped bullets at .329 which are too small. Plus their sizer is .329 also. Orygun

Hey Joe,
As usual, I'll stick with "to each his own." As for me, I'll stick to my good old Lee setup with the nose-first sizing. I have a couple of those Lyman 450 sizers with all a few of the worn out sizers & finally got tired of having a big mess of bullet lube everywhere and bending noses on long bullets. Only place where the Lee suffers is when sizing pointed bullets. I always get a flat-nose out of all but the first one thru the sizer. Guess you must just have the magic touch is all. I like having fun at the range with my .444. 30-06, 7.62X54 Carbine, 8mm Mauser and 30-30 and outshooting all the guys next to me with my lowly cast bullets. Whatever works!
Keep it fun.
Newtire

newtire...You may be able to make a slightly longer pushrod for the Lee and get away from that flat nosed business.

Take that old pushrod over to the high school and see if the kids in the machine shop will make you a slightly longer one that will fit in the press but will push bullets all the way through./beagle

Orygun Mark...My M95 mikes out at .331 also and I bought the Lee mould and sizer and so far am disappointed in it. It doesn't shoot the Lee .329 any better then my sized down Lee .338's.

Newtire...what did you wear out on your Lyman sizer? I have most my sizer die pistons drilled through with a bleed hole and slightly beveled. This eliminates the lube bleed you get around the bullet sometimes. Modification on the bottom is that the ram head that pushes the die piston up has be crossed slotted so the lube that does escape around the bullet and comes down the bleed hole I mentioned that I drilled through the die piston, has somewhere to go. I collect this from time to time and recycle it.

Joe

Thanks Beagle,
I took a long 5/16" bolt, chucked it up in a drill-press & file-turned it skinnier, filed down the head to fit into the Lee Shellholder & Violina! Thanks! Longer IS better!
Newtire