Out doing a little hunting this weekend and had a herd of pigs (probably +20 pigs) trot by my hunting blind. I ususaly have my camera with a 400mm lens but not this time... I have watched these pigs transform over the past 12-15 years and they are truely evolving into what I would refer to as a razorback (in E. Texas). They used to be just feral hogs, they could be any color or spotted.
The group I saw yeaterday; 2/3 had a hump on their shoulder with long guard hairs. There were no off colors or spots. They were all either black or grizzled. There were one or two big ones. I bet approaching 300 lbs. They seem to be getting bigger as a large pig was 150-200 lbs some years ago. Now a big pig is 300 lbs. Just may be they we are less effective at controlling them allowing they to get older.
I popped a 200lb grizzled pig. The rest scattered like quail.
The deer in the pasture haul when these pigs approach. In fact they are a good barometer for when they approach as they since them way before I can and lock in on the direction they are coming from.

eezridr,
I totally agree with your observation of evolution to what looks to be very "eurasian".
I too, now see very few hogs with domestic colors. Snouts are getting longer, shoulders bigger, butts smaller, longer and thicker hair with a brownish black predominating, with a big turft of hair on the top of the spine, and longer legs. The best alert to hog arrival is a quick scattering of the deer from the feeder. I have been hoggin' for 4 or 5 years and have yet to see a deer stay at a feeder with a hog.

Evolution is a controversial topic on AR since there are several bugghead neanderthals who believe evolution is a liberal lie, to gain control of some aspect of their lives, or something like that. Maybe it's a conspiricy theory.

KB

quote:

Evolution is a controversial topic on AR since there are several bugghead neanderthals who believe evolution is a liberal lie, to gain control of some aspect of their lives, or something like that. Maybe it's a conspiricy theory.

So how many ribs do women have?




But they sure adapt fast and pigs that are forced to survive in the nature will develop something "fur-like" in a few generations.

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:

quote:

Evolution is a controversial topic on AR since there are several bugghead neanderthals who believe evolution is a liberal lie, to gain control of some aspect of their lives, or something like that. Maybe it's a conspiricy theory.

So how many ribs do women have?




But they sure adapt fast and pigs that are forced to survive in the nature will develop something "fur-like" in a few generations.

I'm not sure if your question is a joke or if you are some kind of indoctrinated religious nut who actually thinks there is a difference. However to answer your question BOTH male and female humans have 24 ribs, 12 pairs normally.

well, sort of a joke actually.

during my senior year in the midwest I took an anatomy class. on the exam, the question regarding the number of bones in the human body had two correct answers.

Hogs don't evolve. Everyone knows that. They are the same today as they were 4,589 years ago, exactly, when the surviving breeding pair walked off Noah's Ark. Oh, yes, the small detail of Wart hogs, pigmy hogs, bush hogs, forest hogs, Euro hogs, Texas hogs, Polynesian hogs, Borneo hogs, Hogzilla, Etc, Etc, Etc. Hummm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pigs

Actually, I'm just poking fun. Really, I think this is a very interesting subject.

KB

Not evolution, per se, but genetic regression.

I've observed the same phenomenon and commented on it a number of times in the last few years. There are fewer and fewer "Durocs" and "Hampshires" in the feral population and more and more "Russians".

I've had discussions with several people who are not in any way experts, but are somewhat knowledgable of genetics and animal reproduction. Most feel that the genetic material carried by domestic hogs has the "blueprint" of the original wild swine still intact. It is advantageous to a hog in the wild to have a thich coat, long snout, longer legs, and leaner body. Given the high rate of reproduction (and short spacing of generations), just a few year's time allows quite selective forces to change the population from spotted and short haired to grizzled and long haired (the swift survive and the fat get eaten).

The process I've described is natural selection for existing genes which allows for quick, short-term changes in a population, whereas evolution is the selection for new genes as they become available through random mutations.

By the way, many people attribute the changes to the introduction of true European wild boar stock. I strongly doubt this as (1) that is an expensive undertaking and to the extent it exists is very limited, (2) the population seems to be changing all across feral swine habitat rather than just in places where wild genetic stock might have been introduced, and (3) true Eurasian wild boar have a different number of chromosomes and do not reproduce as dependably when crossed with domestic swine.

I think it is evolution in progress.

I post this relevant link, which is the long version, for those who are interested in such things, from a scientific view, since I have little doubt that the religious zealots will simply cross their eyes over this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

For those who want the short version, which I found much easier to read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...duction_to_evolution

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
neanderthals
KB

careful there, mate

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I think it is evolution in progress.

I post this relevant link, which is the long version, for those who are interested in such things, from a scientific view, since I have little doubt that the religious zealots will simply cross their eyes over this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

For those who want the short version, which I found much easier to read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...duction_to_evolution

KB

Why drag religion into this discussion? This isn't the PF and I don't want it to be. Really no need to go down that road.

Yea, You are right. Wrong argument to pick.

It's permanently intractable anyway.

I scratched the word Neanderthal, jeffe.

It was only intended as a metaphour, not literally. Everyone knows they went extinct, as a natural event in evolution.

I think it was Mark Twain who said that it just isn't right to insult the jackass by calling a politician one. Same with the neanderthal. I shouldn't insult them like that, poor things, being extinct and all.

KB

Aside from all the potentially argumentative aspects of this, don't you find the situation with hogs in particular interesting - perhaps as it relates to evolution?

Clearly, we had altered the gene pool, and a great deal of "domestic" hog is in there, whatever that means. We also alter the gene pool by whacking the stupic ones, and or perhaps those who favor daylight.

Given how rapid the generations of hogs turn over, and how rapid they revert to the classic traits such as razor back, long snout, high shoulders, etc., that's phenomenal.

It seems to me to be somewhat unique among animals.

I read somewhere that most probably, among the last survivors, if things go really bad for us, will be wild hogs and coyotes. Somehow, I believe that.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Wallyfish:
eezridr,
I totally agree with your observation of evolution to what looks to be very "eurasian".
I too, now see very few hogs with domestic colors. Snouts are getting longer, shoulders bigger, butts smaller, longer and thicker hair with a brownish black predominating, with a big turft of hair on the top of the spine, and longer legs. The best alert to hog arrival is a quick scattering of the deer from the feeder. I have been hoggin' for 4 or 5 years and have yet to see a deer stay at a feeder with a hog.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Not evolution, per se, but genetic regression.

I've observed the same phenomenon and commented on it a number of times in the last few years. There are fewer and fewer "Durocs" and "Hampshires" in the feral population and more and more "Russians".

I've had discussions with several people who are not in any way experts, but are somewhat knowledgable of genetics and animal reproduction. Most feel that the genetic material carried by domestic hogs has the "blueprint" of the original wild swine still intact. It is advantageous to a hog in the wild to have a thich coat, long snout, longer legs, and leaner body. Given the high rate of reproduction (and short spacing of generations), just a few year's time allows quite selective forces to change the population from spotted and short haired to grizzled and long haired (the swift survive and the fat get eaten).

The process I've described is natural selection for existing genes which allows for quick, short-term changes in a population, whereas evolution is the selection for new genes as they become available through random mutations.

By the way, many people attribute the changes to the introduction of true European wild boar stock. I strongly doubt this as (1) that is an expensive undertaking and to the extent it exists is very limited, (2) the population seems to be changing all across feral swine habitat rather than just in places where wild genetic stock might have been introduced, and (3) true Eurasian wild boar have a different number of chromosomes and do not reproduce as dependably when crossed with domestic swine.

+2


GWB

Well if the wild hog population wants to regress into its bigger, badder, meaner Russian versions then I really dont mind at all.

I haven't faced a really big charging Russian boar in 30 years. But I still remember every second of that hunt.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Not evolution, per se,

The process I've described is natural selection for existing genes which allows for quick, short-term changes in a population, whereas evolution is the selection for new genes as they become available through random mutations.

This where we disagree, or perhaps agree - I'm not sure which.

Natural Selection defined:

http://dictionary.reference.co...se/natural+selection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

The way I read it, and understand it, natural selection is a basic aspect of evolution, even if we are part of the cause of the selection of which gene goes forth.

It could be just a choice of words, and I'm misunderstanding what you are saying a little. The way I read it - for example - is that natural selection is always about existing genes. If they didn't already exist, they wouldn't be available to be selected by whatever causes the selection. (environment perhaps)

A mutation may cause such and such (new) gene to be available, but it survives or not through natural selection if it's favorable, (gives the critter an advantage somehow) or perishes if not.

KB

Along with the visual charateristics, it sure would be nice to develop a less prolific profile. It is hard the believe a wild species multiplied as fast as the domestic variety.

Well, I'd hate to disagree with the crowd , but in my area, the colors, etc have gone the other way. When I bought my first ranch up here about 15 years ago I NEVER saw a white, or white and black, or spotted hog and rarely a brown one. They were almost all solid black and looked more "russian" than they do now. Of course, in this area, there were some real Russian boars let out about 20 years back by some local sports, perhaps the genes are getting thin? At any rate, NOW I've got all of the above colors, in quantity, running around. I've pretty much quit shooting them since it has little effect.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Along with the visual charateristics, it sure would be nice to develop a less prolific profile. It is hard the believe a wild species multiplied as fast as the domestic variety.

A large wolf population is about the only thing that can impact hog populations in the wild. Not worth the trade-off.

Kabluewy:

If we're in disagreement, it is only in terms of semantics.

Yes, natural selection is one of the key features of evolution; but evolution is generally ragarded as something that occurs over a long span of time, with bigger short-term leaps occuring due to the introduction of a new, advantageous gene which itself has come into being via mutation.

In the case of the rapid change in feral hogs, there is no mutant gene involved, only existing genes. Whereas I called the process "regression", perhaps it might better be described as "devolution". At any rate, I fully agree that the primary cause is natural selection in response to the physical qualities which best allow a hog to survive in a non-domestic habitat. Regardless of what you call it, it apparently happens much more quickly than I would have imagined.

I can't explain Gato's observation of hogs in his area going the other way, that is, becoming more domestic-looking. I do know that there are idiots who release domestic swine into the wild with the idea of enhancing their shooting opportunities. No disrespect to Gato's part of the world as there are a lot of fine people there, but also I believe you'll find no shortage there of the type of personalities which would think that releasing domestic hogs into the wild is a great idea.

Probably a moot point, but roughly a hundred years ago there were no "pen-raised" hogs, or very few. Farmers turned them loose to forage as they could and when it came time to get a hog, they went out and hunted one down. Obviously, they never got them all...

And fwiw, one of the last three hogs I shot was a boar of about 280#, and he was white with black spots. Pretty, if you can say that about a pig... the other two were black, and one of them had absolutely curly hair; like on a bison or something. I wonder where THAT came from!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Probably a moot point, but roughly a hundred years ago there were no "pen-raised" hogs, or very few. Farmers turned them loose to forage as they could and when it came time to get a hog, they went out and hunted one down. Obviously, they never got them all...

And fwiw, one of the last three hogs I shot was a boar of about 280#, and he was white with black spots. Pretty, if you can say that about a pig... the other two were black, and one of them had absolutely curly hair; like on a bison or something. I wonder where THAT came from!

That's the origin of "hog calling", BTW. Sows were bred and kept penned. The piglets were trained to come to a particular farmer's call with food until time to release them to forage on their own. They'd be ear marked, too. You'd call them through the year and feed just a little to keep them trained and then in the winter around slaughter time, call them in for good.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Probably a moot point, but roughly a hundred years ago there were no "pen-raised" hogs, or very few. Farmers turned them loose to forage as they could and when it came time to get a hog, they went out and hunted one down. Obviously, they never got them all...

Hadn't thought of it in a while, but I grew up hunting on our place in east Texas. This would be a period beginning around 1960. Over the years I trapped and killed many hogs there. Cows and hogs almost always had their ears cut with a particular mark. Being as there were no stock laws, the old-time nesters up there did just that, they let their stock range. We were always having problems with someone's cows. IIRC, none of the hogs we shot back then had the "russian" characteristics so common in the hogs I shoot now.

GWB

Probably more of an adaptation than evolution. Packs of feral dogs tend to become more alike in color, shape and size and lose the specialized characteristics of the individual breeds.

It is interesting how quickly this happens and it must have a lot to do with survival value of the new traits.

Wish I lived closer to where these animals live!

quote:

Probably a moot point, but roughly a hundred years ago there were no "pen-raised" hogs, or very few. Farmers turned them loose to forage as they could and when it came time to get a hog, they went out and hunted one down.

Although it is true that there were lots of escapes which allowed hogs to go feral, there was very little "free range" raising of hogs. More commonly they were "grazed" like cattle on fenced pastures (ever heard of "hog wire"?) While not confined and fed as essentially all hogs are today, they were neither simply running "hog wild" across the country, but were confined to a particular acreage under fence. Every now and then you'll still see some hogs grazing pastureland just as if they were sheep or cattle.

Incidental to this discusson of hog transformation is the explosion of hog numbers. I think it has most largely to do with greatly improved public sanitation. Hogs are susceptible to most of the diseases that humans carry, so forty years ago when a hog drank from a creek downstream of the Podunk City sewage plant the hog would most likely contract disentary and die. Now, with much tighter regulation and greatly improved water treatment, a hog can enjoy drinking sewage without ill effect.

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
Probably more of an adaptation than evolution. Packs of feral dogs tend to become more alike in color, shape and size and lose the specialized characteristics of the individual breeds.

It is interesting how quickly this happens and it must have a lot to do with survival value of the new traits.

I've seen that too, several times. One of the strangest event to happen to me involved a pack of wild dogs. I was hunting deer at the time on a large tract of hardwoods in west Georgia. As I was walking along a creek bottom, in some rather thick stuff on a very well defined game trail, a buck just ran past me. It was so fast that I didn't have time to get a shot. Before I could recover, here came the dogs that he was running from. The were breathing heavy, but no barking or baying. They were as surprised as I was. It's a good thing they were'nt after me, because they were all around before I could even figure out what was happening, then gone in a flash. I estimate five or six. They were all the same color, short ears unlike a hound, sorta redish sides and black back and legs, short hair, and not large dogs, but stout. I estimate 35 to 40 lbs, and very quick. I'll never forget that. My impression was that these were dogs that had been in the wild for several generations. IMO, they were definately not a pack of someone's pets, and certainly not hounds since they weren't baying or barking. It was a place where no one lived for several miles around. It was all timber company or Corp of Engineer land.

I hunted there two seasons, and got several nice deer, and my hunting buddies did too, but we never saw those dogs again.

KB

These wild pigs seem to intrigue those that see them as a game animal. I do understand the want to shoot one if you never have done so.
For the land owner, it is a different issue. They are extremely destructive. They can root holes 2-3 ft deep. It just tears the hell out of your farm/ranch equipment driving over the crater laced pastures.
I am sure that human intervention molded the modern pig for mass reproduction. I am curious if the Russian/Razorback variety is any where near as prolific?

I too wonder what is really happening with the population. I remember when I was a kid and teenager, and even in my 20s, there were no wild hogs or deer near where I lived in middle Georgia. The deer were introduced along the wild areas on the river bottoms. I'm sure there were some hogs too, but if there had been many breeding from the farm escapees, it sure wasn't evident.

When I was in college, further south, I had the chance to do some hog hunting on some timber co land in the swamps near Valdosta and Waycross. There was a pretty good population of hogs there, and I found lots of sign and rubs and wallows, but I didn't get a hog.

Something happened in the meantime. Could be just population spread and explosion.

What I'm saying is that in the region I'm familiar with, the local farm escapees are not what contributes to the population now. Thirty years of hog generations can do a lot to alter their appearance and behavior, and perhaps numbers.

KB

quote:

Although it is true that there were lots of escapes which allowed hogs to go feral, there was very little "free range" raising of hogs. More commonly they were "grazed" like cattle on fenced pastures (ever heard of "hog wire"?) While not confined and fed as essentially all hogs are today, they were neither simply running "hog wild" across the country, but were confined to a particular acreage under fence. Every now and then you'll still see some hogs grazing pastureland just as if they were sheep or cattle.

I dunno where you're talking about, but that is absolutely false when it comes to East Texas from the Oklahoma border to the Gulf. Except for the breeding sows or hogs they kept at the house to feed scraps prior to converting them to pork parts, ALL the old time hog raisers I ever talked to turned them out to roam at will in the river bottoms, etc. As mentioned above, all the hog owners had a mark two cuts on the left, half right ear sliced off, etc to establish ownership. They usually gathered them once a year in the fall with dogs and/or the great yellow call.

Hart's Bluff ranch which was quite large (tens of thousands of acres at one time) on the Sulphur River had thousands of hogs running from one end of it to the other. They were also the last "wild" hogs left in the N E Texas countryside and were some of the stock that some locals caught and brought up to our area on the Red River about 25 years back. Why did they do that? Simple, there weren't ANY hogs on the Chapman ranch (somewhere around 25,000 acres running along the Red River in Bowie and Red River Counties and my Northern neighbor) which they hunted on and they thought that the fine sport of wild hog hunting that they did on the Sulfur would be a fun supplement on Chapman's. They didn't consult with the owners of Chapman's nor any of the local farmers. They also DID buy and bring in Russian boars to supplement the genetics.

50 years ago, there essentially weren't any "wild" hogs left in most of Texas, they had all been caught, or shot. I ran all over E Texas back in the 50s and 60s and NEVER saw or heard of a wild hog except for those few running in the thickets of the Sabine River (now under the waters of Toledo Bend). The great river bottoms of the Sulphur and the Sabine were one of their last refuges.

What baffels me is the notion of "last refuge" "all been caught or shot". 30 to 40 years ago, there were large areas that didn't have any "wild" hogs, but there had been domestic hogs in the same regions since the land was settled. What further bewilders me is that the old timers presumably weren't any better at shooting or catching than we are today, yet the hogs are practically everywhere now. Why can't we shoot them all or catch them all today, if the old-timers could do it with fewer people?

KB

Back in the day the boars turned out to forage were castrated first. The actual hog population allowed to free roam was pretty well controlled by the people raising them; hogs were too valuable to mismanage. It truly was the advent of sport hunting that introduced significant breeding populations into the wild. I think Stonecreek's contribution about water-borne disease is spot on too.

Hogs are very high on the barnyard intelligence
list. When unpressured, they are not so nocturnal. Given any daytime pressure they go almost completely nocturnal. Hot weather also contributes to this. I don't believe the old timers let them forage entirely on their own.
A small amount of feed in one place would train
them to stay fairly close, yet allow them to forage on their own. I understand from my grandfather that the old timers notched the pigs ears with their mark to establish ownership
Kinda like the cattle rancher's brand. I believe the hog of today due to it's tremendous
reproduction rate, has evolved/regressed at an
exponential rate. Contrary to what you might assume seeing all the ads for hog hunting, I think that only a very small % of land is used for hog hunting outside of deer season. Due to the "lease" mentality, and the hogs propensity
to roam, and forage, means they can always find
a safe haven. Daytime hunting for hogs is not all that productive. Nightime feeders with lights is the most productive way to do it. It has been said the Cockroach or rat will be the last surving live thing, but I believe it will be the wild hog, because he will eat the rats & cockroaches.

You have to admit that getting over run with tasty pork vermin is not so bad.
I could have been Skunks instead.

Cheers, John

In some cultures I understand that they eat roaches and rats too, and consider them tasty.

KB

A 60 # pig is not to bad to eat especially in the Fall of the year. About all they do is run from deer feeder to deer feeder eating corn. I suspect they are better fed than a domestic hog. Might throw in some acorns.
A big pig? Forget it! Stinks like the devil to begin with.

Some of the best wild game I've had was a young pig. I wish I could be hunting one right now.

KB

I'll take an average size sow and all her little ones.
Hold the mustard and the pickles please.

Cheers, John

Never met a pig I didn't like.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Although it is true that there were lots of escapes which allowed hogs to go feral, there was very little "free range" raising of hogs. More commonly they were "grazed" like cattle on fenced pastures (ever heard of "hog wire"?) While not confined and fed as essentially all hogs are today, they were neither simply running "hog wild" across the country, but were confined to a particular acreage under fence. Every now and then you'll still see some hogs grazing pastureland just as if they were sheep or cattle.

I dunno where you're talking about, but that is absolutely false when it comes to East Texas

I'll admit, East Texas is different from most places.

Where I live and farm in West Texas, these feral hogs have exploded in numbers as well. I'm 48 years old. When I was a kid, nobody ever saw a wild hog. We also never had porcupines and other critters we have today. Personally, I think we just have so few people living in the countryside anymore has something to do with it. It takes farming several places to make a living today that used to support one family in the old days. 50 or 60 years ago every 160 or 320 acres had at least one boy with a .22 rifle shooting at everything with hair on it.