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I have no financial gain from hogs and I can't go out and hunt, so your assertion/assumption in my case is purely incorrect speculation. But go ahead and buy into it. After all, a governmental agency would never led us astray with something like this...or things like grass carp, wolves, etc., right?  Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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When all those cows you seem to worry so much about start falling over dead from Kaput, come back and tell me how wrong I was, until then, you're just regurgitating the "company" line you read somewhere. So quit shooting all those hogs, if you don't hunt. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Now, to finish up with your questions. the point that so many folks cannot/do not understand, for whatever reason, is that hogs, cannot be managed, PERIOD! Right now one of the biggest problems with feral hogs in Texas, is the price being paid to trappers for live pigs is really low, so many of them have cut back or even stopped their trapping. With feral hogs, the situation is, and I do not think anyone can prove me wrong, but either you have too many or you totally eradicate them and have none anywhere. There is No Middle Ground, There is NO workable management plan/scheme. Pigs are fun to hunt, they add a certain element to a hunt that is sometimes hard to define. However, since hogs are true omnivores, they have an unlimited food supply and because of their breeding physiology, 3 months/3 weeks and 3 days, basically every 115 to 120 day a sow can produce a litter. On the conservative side, for a healthy sow that is two litters of 4 to 8 piglets per litter, 8 to 16 piglets a year and it is not Rocket Science to comprehend how many piglets are or could be being produced by say, conservatively 1 million sows in Texas annually. It is a major problem, but the bigger point to myself and evidently others, is the potential secondary poison can or will have on the environment. The second problem I foresee will be land owner objections to the program being forced upon them. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I generally refrain from replying to ignorant responses, but I'll make an exception here. First of all, it doesn't take rocket science to comprehend that shooting hogs from the front yard or kitchen window isn't hunting. I'd give anything to be able to be out there and stalk hogs or deer or call coyotes, but my medical issues don't allow that. There are days I can't even get out of the house, let alone make it down the ramp I have to use. But do you want to assume something about that as well? I figure I have 2 choices when I wake up: I can face the day with a positive attitude and try and make the most of it instead of focusing on the things I can no longer do or I can just develop into a crass, grumpy, grouchy old man who's mad at the world. I choose the former. Secondly, I made NO MENTION of "cows falling over." But if you could use logic and analytical skills, you'd know there is a reason cattle can't be present on a pasture for at least 90 days after the poison has been removed. That, too, doesn't require rocket science. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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That's the point I was making, Crazy, that one of the reasons there are so many hogs in Texas is because Texans are feeding them. If Texas is to take hog reduction seriously, they need to outlaw feeding them. The wild hog population in Texas didn't change much for hundreds of years. The natural environment will sustain many, yes, but only so many and did so for a long time. Then all of a sudden, a few decades ago, it started to skyrocket. Spreading the hogs around and feeding them is what set off the sudden and massive population explosion.
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Your definition of hunting may be your idea of hunting, but if you seek something to kill it for food or sport, you're hunting period, try to use common definitions when you discuss something, it makes communication so much simpler. I generally don't knowingly engage in conversation with less than honest people, but sometimes I get carried away. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Gato- I am done responding to you -- ever. I get along with everyone on this board and have been nothing but cordial to those I engage in conversation with. But over the last few years, you've resorted to childish name calling, temper tantrums, far-fetched accusations and are now calling me dishonest -- something I've never been a day in my life. But the straw that broke the camel's back actually happened a while back already...when you went out of your way to repeatedly insult my late friend (and long-time board member) Doubless. Scot was one of the nicest and most soft-spoken people ever to walk the face of the Earth, yet you chose to use profanity and adjectives that were totally uncalled for just because he pointed out some documented facts. It's obvious that when you have nothing substantive to add, you resort to this type of behavior as some sort of deflection or diversionary tactic. It may be effective on the kindergarten playground, but most others can see right through that crap. It's no wonder so many here have already put you on "ignore." I'm about to do the same. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Damn, rationalization is so easy for those who need to use it. Let me just say that when you use "friends and family" on Paypal to sell your scopes and other stuff, then you are defrauding (stealing) Paypal out of the commission due on the transaction, which is, unless they've changed their schedule, $3.19 on the first $100, and $2.90 for each hundred thereafter. Sell a $500 scope, get paid by paypal "friends and family" and you've stolen $14.79. Rationalize that. Just for the record, from your last FS post:
So in this particular instance, you would only be stealing $27.11. Ignore that, "never been dishonest a day in my life". AFA Doubless goes, I don't recall the conversation, nor can I find any record of it in searches, but I'm sure he deserved it. Let me tell you, he absolutely tried to rip my lungs out attempting to buy a Freedom Arms I had. I didn't care for him since then. After he tried to fuck me, I rarely had anything to say to him. If you un-ignore this, I'd like to see this supposed exchange, because I seriously doubt it happened as you've described. I regret his passage, he really knew his bullet casting, but a saint he wasn't. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I think much ado about nothing.......how many have been poisoning rats for how many decades? . | |||
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Grenadier, if we were not feeding them ANYTHING, the hogs would still be here! Do you also want Texas farmers to stop planting crops? How much do you actually know about hogs? Not feral, just hogs? Are you proposing that Texas landowners and hunters NOT be allowed to feed deer/turkeys/quail? Grenadier, feral hogs are NOT dependent on the feeding done by hunters. Grenadier, have you ever been to Texas? I am not trying to or meaning to be insulting, but unless you or anyone else has actually been here and witnessed the situation first hand, it is hard to grasp the concept of the damage hogs can do, regardless of whether they have access to game feeders or not. The bigger point is, WHY do people with no skin in the game, want to prohibit Private Landowners in Texas from doing as they wish on the land they own? What difference does it really make to you Grenadier? As for the disagreement that is taking place between a couple of Texans on the issue, JMO, but, Yes we do not know what collateral/secondary poisoning may/will take place, is it worth the risk? Is possible damage to non target species worth the risk? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Most of what you read about hogs in Texas is a lie! All living things have to have water, food and shelter in that order. They have to be in abundance for things to reproduce. Pigs are no different! How they can or do reproduce are two totally different things. We will never be three deep in pigs. Pigs are ugly and mean looking, making them easy to hate! Deer, coons, armadillos, vultures and feral cats do just as much damage. You go to jail for poisoning any of them. I have not needed a super combo license for several years now but I buy it anyway to support Texas Parks and Wildlife. Poison my pigs and I'll cut off your money!!! This September I will be buying only an exempt hunting license! There are not near as many pigs out there as the haters say and there wont be cause they will run out of food! | |||
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Grenadier: I'm going to comment on a few of your points. Just as a local example, until the last year (two if you count a couple of feeders another AR member put out next to the area I'm referring to) we were absolutely overrun with hundreds of hogs, no feeders for several miles in any direction. However, my neighbors plant corn so they supplement their food, but certainly not by choice. Hogs will eat almost anything, they graze grass like cattle if other foods are short. Just as an example, we are currently feeding corn to attract deer and hogs, with only 2 feeders currently in use and they'll stop next week. These feeders put out about 2 pounds of corn, twice a day. Mostly the deer eat it, but when hogs show up, there will usually be 10-20, large and small. Doing the math, it is obvious that the quantity of corn won't fill the requirements of that many hogs. That corn is simply a food they prefer. They don't need it to survive in our area. Period.
You're right, of course, but you seem to think that there is one goal. There isn't. Agriculture, in general, would be extremely happy and more profitable if ALL hogs disappeared. The other main group is hunters, who, like me, generally put up with hog damage in return for the pleasure of shooting them. Cattle raisers are in the middle, hogs damage pastures, and, especially hay meadows, but generally the bottom line cost to cattlemen is not nearly that to farmers. The main reason this isn't going to work is cost and ability to apply it consistently and to cover all the areas. I think the environmental impacts will be minimal. Just like the anti-hunters and lead bullets, it is just something for the hunters to use as a reason to oppose hog poisoning. I don't think Texas will act "with a heavy hand" in this matter, there are way too many people who don't want to interfere with their hog hunting or just plain don't want to poison them (or anything, for that matter) for Texas Ag Dept, or any state division, to try to implement draconian measures. It just won't happen. Not to mention, that Texans don't cotton to the state telling them what to do with their land. The only real use/benefit for Kaput will be in heavily agricultural areas. There are thousands and thousands of acres that used to raise peanuts that don't anymore due to hogs (not in my area). Those areas and big corn plots will likely use them for control IF the costs are reasonable. But, as you've pointed out, the bottom line is, it's no hogs or all hogs, spot measures will not work in the long run as control, but they might help in large open ag areas. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Anyway.......I just think the hogs will appreciate the Warfarin, and will have a much less chance of dying from a stroke. Of course they are going to have to report periodically to monitor their INR range if we are going to do this thing right. Personally when I'm visiting Gato I want at least two, maybe three, of them to die of lead poisoning. I don't find hogs particularly ugly unless they are lying on the ground, not moving, and Gato's truck is miles away. I find hogs to be magnetized. They are attracted to the earth. They may look like they aren't magnetized, but just knock down a hog that looks like he should weigh fifty pounds and then just try to drag him.....trust me he's magnetized. As far as mean looking, a hog isn't half as mean looking as I suspect Gato looks if you tip over his beer. Not that I know, but I'm just guessin'. Personally, I wouldn't shoot a deer for food if you paid me. (Venison ain't my thing.) I would shoot a hog for food given any reason. (My car won't start? Solution? Shoot a hog.) I'm glad to hear Gato isn't going to medically treat his hogs, and I'm sure his neighbor will probably provide each of his hogs one of those medical bracelets so I know whether I shot the wrong hog. Next thing you know those devious hogs are going to start carrying around organ donor cards. One more fuckin' thing to worry about. | |||
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Ken: You should consider a second career as a sit-down comedian.  If you want to shoot three, you're going to have to do 2 things, learn how to sharpen knives and how to skin faster, two related issues. For those who find this exchange somewhat obscure, Ken hunted hogs earlier this week on my place and managed to take home a couple, rumor has it he even killed one, but I think it had a heart attack in front of him, possibly as a result of the sonic crack of a bullet passing by. OTOH, we ate some good steaks, drank some fair wine, and told some good stories around a campfire. I showed Ken how a steak is supposed to be cooked (barely). He is still learning. At his age, he is a slow learner.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Grenadier, I am going to address two of your comments and see if I can get you to understand things from a different POV, not my point of view, but perhaps a better one.
Yes, many Texans would like to see hog numbers reduced, but as I have stated, you have to view hogs in the same manner as fire ants. Either there are fire ants or there aren't fire ants, they can not be managed, feral hogs can not be managed. You mention the amount of supplemental feeding that takes place in Texas as being the reason hogs have reached the numbers they have. I am sure that it has helped, but the only solution to that aspect is to stop all supplemental feeding of any kind for wildlife. I seriously doubt it would really make any difference in overall hog numbers, they are (A) simply to prolific, and (B) are not picky about what they eat!
One aspect, actually two that have had an effect on the situation and both negative, the first being the price paid to trappers at this point in time is low, so many trappers have cut back on their operations. The second being the weather, especially the amount of rain most of the state has had, has played its part in the situation. Grenadier, there is no easy solution. Any time an exotic species is introduced, deliberately or accidental into an environment that has an open niche, there is always the possibility of an ecological disaster. The western hemisphere was not meant to have a porcine species in its ecosystems. The closest species that was part of the program were the various peccaries. Just like horses, they evolved in North America, but left. When pigs were reintroduced in the late 1400's, early 1500's they found the New World to their liking. Fast forward from the 1500's to the last few decades of the 1900's. Whether it was the introduction of supplemental feeding of wildlife or changes in land management practices, which in many cases were incorporated to improve the nations deer herd in many areas, feral hogs did benefit. Unfortunately, concerning feral hogs in the United States, there is no middle ground there are either too many or they have to be totally eliminated. I am one of those that simply believes that poisoning is not the answer. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Gato, Crazy - Doing things like this would be better than poisoning. One problem would be compliance even if it were mandated by law. Another problem would be lost income and recreation for the tract and lease owners who wouldn't be able to shoot as many hogs or shoot them as easily. http://plumcreek.tamu.edu/medi...feeding-stations.pdf If it came down to a choice would you rather see widespread poisoning or outlawing feeding of hogs to the point they would have to be hunted with dogs or over water? Just curious. . | |||
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I'm going to repeat what CHC said, feeders don't create nor maintain hogs. There are and will be hogs whether there are deer feeders or not. The set up you showed is expensive and a pain in the ass to set up in some areas AND it won't control hog populations. Plus many, many hunters like hogs coming to their feeders. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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According to the paper from 2011, studies show the fences do work and the cost was less than $200 per feeder. . | |||
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Grenadier any fence put up around a feeder that will keep hogs out consistently, is going to cost more than $200.00 dollars. Since 2009, I have been building feeder pens, and from First Hand experience, unless a cement footing is put around the full circumference of the pen and the fence material anchored into the cement, hogs will get in. Given enough time and big enough hogs they will break in, and time is something they have on their side, along with size. Not using my formula, but just to get an opinion, what would be the possible Live Weight of a hog that gutted weighed 325 pounds? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Somewhere Randy comes into this equation. There is a rumor that Randy can skin and quarter a hog lickity-split. I have no evidence to confirm that. I was there to observe his work that first evening, but turned around to get my knife, and when I turned back someone had switched hogs on me. Four quarters were in the cooler, and Randy was holding a half empty beer can in one hand. All I saw was Randy burp. It was like watching David Copperfield. I still don't know what happened. | |||
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Damn, I did not know Gato's first name was Randy, learn something new everyday.  Grenadier, supplemental feeding of deer, is not going to be stopped. Feral hogs thrive anywhere they have cover and water, they will find stuff to eat. They will root up the bar ditches along side highways and county dirt roads, they graze in pastures/wheatfields/maize-mio fields, any cultivated crop, they eat fawns ground nesting birds eggs, aquatic vegetation, carrion and the list goes on and on. Contrary to what you may believe Grenadier, quite a few Texans would like to see hogs managed to the point where there would be huntable numbers but not so many as to damage the environment, but I do not believe that can be done. From what I have seen and know of the animals, poisoning may reduce numbers in the areas that participate, but I have my doubts about all Texans getting on board with the program, and I also have concerns about the possibilities of secondary/collateral damage to unintended species. I am fairly sure that most of the Texans on here above the age of 30 or so can remember a time when there were no pigs in the area they lived in when growing up. In my case, the first wild pig I saw that had been killed, came from a location on the Clear Fork of the Brazos about 50 miles south of where I lived in Young county and that was in the late 1970's, about '77 or '78, maybe even as late as 1980. Hogs really didn't start showing up in the rest of Young county until the mid to late '80's early '90's. Not a day goes by that I don't see from one to a half dozen dead hogs out in fields that were shot from the road and left, it has gotten hard to give away even fresh butchered hogs/pigs. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That's because it ain't.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I didn't think it was, just trying to figure out who Kensco was referring to. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The points you posted throughout this thread would apply in some places where the hog population is restricted by environment like West Texas. You don't not take into account how many of those commercial operations are high fenced and therefore out of the equation. An example was the last company lease I hunted where we fed somewhere between 8,000 and 12,000 pounds of hog feed per week. We hunted clients and employees 12 months a year and needed a prolific species to provide enough opportunity virtually day in and day out. When that land ceased to be commercial, the feeding stopped and the hog population declined by attrition. I and others think they became cannibalistic and thinned their own numbers to what that 2700 acres would support. We supported that theory by the fact that a captive hog pen is a great place to turn guts hides and bones from der and hogs into hog shit. None escaped into the wild to contribute to your scenario. That is a very typical result for high fenced properties. In fact, if you're trying to compete in that market you really need high fence for a captive population. The polar end of that is my county (Brazoria) which is largely coastal river bottom full of pasture, pecan trees and wetlands. This is the type (or one of the types) of habitats where your beliefs about control fall very short. There is no possible means to hunt/starve/predate the hog population into submission or even reduction. And as for predators, an introduced species big and strong enough to take down a year old (or older) hog would have to be of sufficient size and numbers to be a threat to dogs, calves, sheep, cats, children and probably unarmed adults. Just one opinion from a person dealing with this issue since about 1986. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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My sister ranches in Texas and in one night hogs destroyed a 200 acre pasture freshly planted..Her son who manages the rach was getting 150 hogs a night in his trap, sent me pictures..so some folks don't know what they are talking about, hogs destroy everything and you cannot control them with hunting..and sometimes hunters that are not supervised are as bad as the damn hogs..Ive seen both sides of that story. Texas is overrun with feral hogs, like any animal they need control and bother you or not, its private land and owners option..Ranchers don't tell you how to run your home in town or that you can't put out mouse traps at night. Hogs litter so they breed like cockroaches.. Get over it, even with poison there will be plenty of hogs to shoot..I shot Javalina for my dad in my youth for 25 cents apiece, I killed hundreds, maybe thusands?? dunno! of them with a 22, and that ranch is still teaming with Javalina..Texas now has a 6 month season on Javalina..No season on preditors like coyote, Lion and bobcats. Still as many Javalina as there ever was, some places even more since that 6 months season. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Don't know when Ive heard so many misinformed folks making such ridiculas statements. to start with none of this threads BS is going to make spit with Texas. ARs opinion won't even be considered. They have to do something about the hogs, they are working on it..The hogs are doing way more damage to the Texas grass lands, forests , waters, livestock and brush country than most of you guys realize, its out of control, Advocating hunting because you want to go shoot a hog is totally ignorant. Killing nocturnal animals is hard at best and hogs roam a large territory, they won't be on your ranch for two or three weeks then in one night they are all over it by the hundreds..They bring desease to animals, to the land.. If any one of you nay sayers made your living, fed your family ranching, in hog country you would be singing a different song named "Who'd a thought it mama"  I recall a rancher who had a 9 months old high dollar colt in his corral, and one morning his wife shot a 500 lb. feral/Russian cross with a 22..while the big pig was eating that colt. I would think the least we could do is to think before we speak on such subjects, emotional response is not very effective..If your really interested get involved, and quit the off the wall opines, become the ranchers friend you might end up going hunting for free. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Might want to do a little rechecking Sir. The majority of counties with a stable Javelina population, the "Season" runs from Sept. 1 till August 31 with a bag limit of two. In the rest of the counties with a javelina season, it runs from Oct.1 till the end of February. There are no tags on the license, but in all reality, Javelina do not even come close to feral hogs in terms of damage to the environment. From what I have experienced, feral hogs will push Javelina out of an area. As for the feral hog poisoning scheme, I recently sat thru a seminar concerning this subject, and not ALL landowners are buying in to it. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Must be a HECK of a trap. Please post the photos for us to enjoy. Thanks. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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My opinion (free) is that we will not ever control feral hogs completely. They will go through natural up and down cycles probably due to moisture levels. The damage 6-10 large feral hogs can do in one night is impressive, when you have seen what 30-50 can do in a night and realize you couldn't match what they did on a tractor you are beginning to see the problem. I see the problem getting bigger this year as we have had such mild weather and everything is green. Another thing the kind of guy it takes to consistently kill a lot of hogs is not common. | |||
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One of the more important factors that is having an effect right now, is that the price being paid to trappers is down. It is a complicated situation, but unless or until the uninformed are willing to be come informed, it is difficult to get people to understand the dynamics of the situation. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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