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one of us |
Saw this on the news today that Texas is going to start using poison to control the feral hog population. I love hog hunting and, since I don't have any friends with land, always end up paying to hunt. Drives me nuts that the state is full of people who would happily shoot hogs to help out ranchers who don't want them (and even pay the rancher to let them), but, instead, the state is going to poison them. Another concern of mine, what if I go hog hunting on a ranch the neighbors a place that uses poison? Are we going to need to high fence hogs now to prevent the accidental ingestion of a poisoned hog that wonders between properties? What are your guys's thoughts on the subject? Seems like a huge step backwards to me. P.S. If you got a ranch and are debating poisoning your hogs to control the population. PM me, I will pay you $10 for every hog your let me shoot instead! ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | ||
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Was there a mention of what poison and methods are to be used? As of a few years ago, the top Texas feral hog expert spoke to the Dallas Woods and Waters Club on the subject of feral hogs. At that time, there were several poisons that would kill hogs, but none that would not also kill other animals that are deemed desirable. There were some promising hog poisoning methods being tested in Australia, but none yet approved for use in Texas. This is something to be monitored carefully for obvious reasons. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Somewhat related is the program by USFG in NW Ga, NE Ala, and SE TN to eradicate rabies. They drop by plane and helicopter small packets of food containing birth control hormones along our many streams and rivers. After ten years I still have as many coons as ever. Govt people are not field biologists and seldom are hunters. | |||
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i hate poisoning - the birth control idea is great - we could air drop condoms | |||
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Apparently those with authority have signed off on the use of warfarin (trade name Kaput) for use in feral hog control. See http://www.nola.com/outdoors/i...n_likely_coming.html This is the same chemical used in many rat baits - that keeps the blood from clotting. So if a hog bumps into something or gets a cut, the resulting bruise/cut doesn't stop bleeding and the animal bleeds to death - internally or externally. This is not a good thing - as the pesticide can be ingested by carrion eaters feeding on the dead hog - and they will be poisoned themselves. Can't wait til somebody's family pet dies from secondary poisoning after finding an easy meal in the field - or worse yet - til somebody that is already taking Coumadin for blood thinner gets a dose of contaminated ham from a hog they shot on the back 40 and bleeds to death internally. The other obvious problem is making sure non-target animals don't eat the bait itself. There are more promising chemical controls in testing phase that don't pose the same hazard. I agree we need to do something to curb feral hogs - but this ain't it! | |||
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BTW butchloc, there is research underway to exploit a type of herpes virus that sterilizes hogs - with the hope that if introduced on a large scale, it would gradually reduce the population over time (much like the screw worm strategy employed decades ago). Obviously there are concerns from domestic hog producers - and insuring the virus is specific to hogs (some concerns about possible transmission to bears?). Short of voluntary condom use, this is an option in the works... | |||
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I have seen on tv they are testing the poison in a type of deer feeder. It is designed to not let any other critter get to it. I want to say around Kerrville or Fredericksburg but may be wrong. I want to say something about oxygen and blood, that is bout all I remember about it. Maybe the pig can't use the oxygen or something. Keep yer powder dry and yer knife sharp. | |||
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Impossible to shoot enough hogs for population control. In fact, for many landowners, managing hunters is more trouble than hogs.
Supposedly the fat of poisoned hogs turns blue. I'm not going to poison hogs on my place but my neighbors lost tens of thousands of dollars due to corn/hogs last year. If it works and is cost effective, they certainly will. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Very sorry to hear it is coming to this. Our worthy Texas swine jihadists need to "get her done." There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Isn't it ironic (or maybe moronic) that a state will turn to poison while still requiring paid licensing to dispatch these hogs in a traditional manner such as sport hunting? Wouldn't an open, no charge season on hogs be the logical first step in stemming the tide as well as the benefit to sportsmen and food banks which could use the meat? | |||
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As stated above, hunting does not control hog populations. Anyone who thinks it does, doesn't know what he is talking about and/or simply has no experience with hunting hogs. Compared to almost any other states, hunting hogs for non-residents in Texas is dirt cheap (5 day license, including exotics and hogs, $48), indeed it can be done for free IF the hunter is doing depredation control for the landowner and does not take or possess any part of hog. Also, Tx Parks and Wildlife is not a free service, somebody has to pay for it, and that somebody is, mostly, people who hunt in Texas, whatever the objective. There already is an "open, no charge season" 24/7/365 on hogs in Texas for landowners and depredation hunters that obviously hasn't, doesn't, and won't work. Hogs are incredibly smart, extremely prolific, and nearly impossible to control by any normal means. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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One of Us |
Licensing, seasons, etc. are not the "bottleneck" in hog control. They are not a game animal and there is no season. There is little public land in Texas - and private landowners are reticent to allow folks they don't know on their land to shoot hogs due to potential - or past - abuses (gates left open, livestock injured, erosion resulting from 4-wheeling, firearms concerns, uninvited return guests, etc.). Any kind of control depends on a consistent, across-the-board effort across large areas. Anything less is futile. If a landowner is diligent in control efforts, but his neighbor is not, the reservoir population will quickly fill the vacant habitat. You can't control the dandelions in your yard if your neighbor allows his to bloom and spread seed. | |||
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Yeah, the license fees are cheap, it's the landowner access fees that get expensive. Landowners have learned there is additional income to be made. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Poison is dangerous and indiscriminate. Wait till the first person gets sick or dies from ingesting poisoned meat. The best way to control a population of animals is to introduce predators and increase predation. Man is the best hog predator, so yes, there should be open seasons without licensing for shooting these pests. What doesn't seem to be popular in Texas is outlawing feeding and releasing of hogs. Some people are making too much money offering hog hunting to care about that. You can't have it both ways. . | |||
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Yes, hogs are a problem, but poisoning them with this method is a disaster waiting to happen. It gives no regard to human consumption, secondary or even tertiary poisoning. And yes, given the opportunity, livestock WILL consume it. If you agree that this is a BAD idea, please sign the petition in the link below. https://www.change.org/p/texas...xs-no_src-custom_msg Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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This should be another disaster. I wonder what if any impact will occur to non-target animals that eat the "bait". What about those that eat the mildly poisoned but appear healthy animals? What about those animals that eat the dead poisoned animals? Where are the studies to show that this one time the government can run an effective poisoning operation? I know if they accidently kill off a bunch of hog eating Texans the population of Texans will eventually bounce back, but it seems that killing people over hog populations might be literally "overkill". | |||
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Remember: the farmer didn't ingest any of it and only had contact with his hands. And this dosage was for rats/mice and not the more potent forms to be used for hogs. A farmer whose hands were intermittently wetted with a 0.5% solution of warfarin over a period of 24 days developed gross hematuria two days after the last contact with the solution; the following day, spontaneous hematomas appeared on the arms and legs. Within four days, there were also epistaxis, punctate hemorrhages of the palate and mouth, and bleeding from the lower lip. The bleeding time was over 30 minutes; the clotting time was 11 minutes and 30 seconds; the prothrombin index was 17; and the prothrombin percentage (thrombotest) was 5. Four days later, after treatment for two days with phytonadione, the values were in the normal range (11). Another source indicated that two human fatalities occurred after ingesting 0.25% warfarin on corn meal over 15 days (12). Teratogenic Effects Warfarin has been established as a human teratogen, because it causes birth defects in the offspring of women receiving clinical doses of the compound during any trimester of pregnancy. Therapeutic use by pregnant women has resulted in fatal hemorrhaging of the fetus and malformations and mental retardation in infants. However, the amount of warfarin contained in the rodenticide bait is very low. A single ingestion of warfarin-treated bait by an adult female would not be likely to cause teratogenic effects (5, 13, 12). Other studies also indicated fetal abnormalities in humans exposed to clinical sodium warfarin Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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One of Us |
Hogs are a problem in Texas, but I really do not see how the State will accomplish this. Private LandOwner Rights, are and have been a really strong concept in Texas. I really cannot envision Private LandOwners sitting still for such a program. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The Feral Hog seminar I attended last year stated that there were 2.5 Million hogs in Texas at that time. They were expecting 2.5 Million live births last year. YOu apply the Rule of 3. Every 3 months, ,3 weeks, 3 days a sow can drop a litter of pigs. You can't hope to control them by shooting. Feral hogs have raised the fecal chloroform levels in almost every stream,river and lake in Texas! NOt to mention the destruction of property and crops and animals! As I understand it,pigs can't eliminate Nitrate from their system. We use it to preserve meat. We can process it out. Pigs can't. It inhibits oxygen transfer. The pesticide, as I understand it, would contain Nitrate. It makes the pigs blood unable to carry oxygen. No oxygen no pig! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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That is the one they use in places like Australia and New Zealand, not yet approved for use here. As mentioned above, the one approved now is warfarin based, like rat poison and also blood thinners that a number of people are on. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Note: Don't take baths in rat poison. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Only peripherally related, not too long ago some maroon near me decided to solve his hog problem. Apparently used corn soaked/sprayed with cotton poison. Was caught by trail of dead deer, birds, hogs, raccoons, etc. I hear he is facing 6 months Federal plus $25k per charge. Not sure how many charges are involved. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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If Texas would outlaw the release and feeding, including feeder "bait", of feral pigs then half the battle would be won. Yes, these animals can forage and will eat crops. But a large percentage are allowed to thrive on the feed they are being supplied and the current numbers would not be sustainable without human supplied feed. . | |||
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You really don't know what you're talking about. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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One of Us |
Grenadier, no offence meant or intended with this question, but how much time have you spent or spend in Texas and how much first hand knowledge and experience of/with the situation do you actually have? Gato's responses hits the nail on the head. I have rarely heard of or read of a Species Specific Poison that works 100% of the time, there is always collateral damage/secondary poisonings. Feral hogs do get supplemental feed, but they also eat a lot of crops and natural food stuffs. If they depended wholly or mainly on feed provided by hunters, the numbers would not be what they are. Hogs eat anything/everything, that includes road kill, fawns, ground nesting birds and their eggs, you think of it, they will eat it. Not attacking you, but all too often Non-Texans have plenty of advice/opinions on how to solve the "Problem", but until they have actually seen/observed on a day in-day out basis. What Texas needs concerning Feral Hogs is a Management Program, not an eradication program, all an eradication program is going to do is one hell of a lot of collateral damage. Think of Feral Hogs in the exact same terms as Fire Ants, you cannot control/manage or eradicate, without a lot of major collateral damage. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Feral hogs Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I signed the petition a few days ago and will pass this on to anyone who will listen. If it really was safe, why do cattle have to be removed for a minimum of 90 days from any pasture where hogs were poisoned? Every study shows that warfarin has a "high mammalian toxicity." It's not exactly rocket science, but then again, folks at the top of the Texas government chain wouldn't understand it if it was. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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one of us |
Here are a few "warnings" from the manufacturer. You shouldn't contaminate water, but what is stopping a hog from dying in water and contaminating it? You are supposed to dispose of all carcasses properly, but there is no way is Hades that is possible because they travel for miles. And how do you keep dogs, scavengers, etc. from eating a carcass? And what about the crumbs? Do these folks even know how a hog eats? LOTS of crumbs fall from the sides of their mouths. And keeping cattle away for at least 90 days AFTER the poison has been removed may be the biggest red flag yet. Here it is: This product may be toxic to fish, birds and other wildlife. Dogs and other predatory and scavenging mammals and birds might be poisoned if they feed upon animals that have eaten the bait. Do not apply this product directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high-water mark. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment wash waters. Quote: USE RESTRICTIONS: This product may only be used to control feral hogs (Sus scrofa) on pastures, rangeland, forests, non-crop areas, and crop lands. This bait may only be applied in hog feeders equipped with heavy lids (8 to 10 lbs. of total weight) on bait compartments so as to limit direct access to bait by nontarget animals. Feral hogs must be conditioned to accept feed from the bait dispensers and to open the weighted lids to bait compartments. Kaput Feral Hog Bait: Page 3 of 5 Final Label 01.03.17 Do not apply this bait directly on the ground, including all types of ground surface (e.g., bare or plant-covered ground, paved surfaces, etc.). Apply this product only in hog feeders consistent with the description provided above. Apply bait in fenced areas, if available. When handling bait or animal carcasses, wear protective gloves made of barrier laminate, polyethylene, butyl rubber (>14 mils), nitrile rubber (>14 mils), neoprene rubber (>14 mils), natural rubber (>14 mils), polyvinyl chloride (>14 mils), or Viton (>14 mils). Store this product out of reach of children, pets, domesticated animals, and wildlife. Post bilingual caution signs (English and Spanish) in the treated areas to warn the public of the presence of the Warfarin bait and to forbid disturbance of bait dispensers and hog carcasses. Post these signs on public roads, trails, and pathways within and at common points of access to treated areas. All carcasses found must be disposed of properly. " Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Poison is a double edged sword, about impossible to control side catch. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Only time will tell, I really do not see how this plan will work without the support of Private Land Owner's. If it is implemented and ANY cases of secondary poisoning are verified, the idiot that came up with this program should be prosecuted. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A bit off topic,but is it my imagination, or do I see more photos of Texas feral pigs looking like they have some European blood in them in recent years? | |||
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It is NOT you imagination. Do not really care what some claim, but I have been seeing several feral hog piglets both red and grey with the longitudinal white striping of European Wild Hog piglets. In the report I posted earlier about a 3 day hunt I just finished in north central Texas. The client and I saw a 120 to maybe 130 pound boar at one of the feeders that had the humped front shoulders and sloping hind quarters of the European Wild hogs. A lot depends on how many generations they are removed from the original stock they came from. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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What is wrong with you that you would want this? You want people to come on your land and poison it? | |||
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Since you do not list where you live except the USA, I will hazard the guess that you don't live in Texas. Private LandOwner Rights are and have been one of the major cornerstones here that has made Texas what it is. This whole program needs to be, and will be defeated. As for your comment, if you don't live here, is totally irrelevant. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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While I don't think this is really a workable solution, this might educate and alleviate some of the concerns expressed above: (what won't copy is a pic of a poisoned hogs fat, it is a bright blue)
xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks for the information,Gatorodo! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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One of Us |
I do not propose that stopping of feeding and relocating hogs will cure the problem. But it certainly will make whatever control methods are used more effective.
A responsible game feeder will have a fence or other means to allow deer in but keep hogs out. Is that the way they are always set up in Texas? Are some people putting up "bait" stations with the express purpose and intent of attracting hogs to hunt? Are those "bait" stations left unattended for days or weeks at a time and do those "bait" stations automatically and indiscriminately distribute feed on a schedule to a local population of hogs? When hogs are taken at a "bait" station are all hogs present destroyed or are just a portion taken? Are there commercial hog hunting operations and leases in Texas that have several different "bait" stations placed throughout large tracts of land with the sole purpose of feeding and maintaining a sustainable feral hog population and are hogs deliberately harvested at levels low enough to ensure the population remains sustainable? . | |||
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Gato-Thanks for the info, but you should take that with a grain of salt considering the source. This is what was hand-fed to state officials from testing that was conducted and directed by the manufacturer. Considering that millions of dollars stand to be made from Kaput, you do think there is any green-colored bias present? The original labeling from the manufacturer is a bit different than what you posted. Here are a few "warnings" from the manufacturer. You shouldn't contaminate water, but what is stopping a hog from dying in water and contaminating it? You are supposed to dispose of all carcasses properly, but there is no way is Hades that is possible because they travel for miles. And how do you keep dogs, scavengers, etc. from eating a carcass? And what about the crumbs? Do these folks even know how a hog eats? LOTS of crumbs fall from the sides of their mouths. And keeping cattle away for at least 90 days AFTER the poison has been removed may be the biggest red flag yet. Here it is: This product may be toxic to fish, birds and other wildlife. Dogs and other predatory and scavenging mammals and birds might be poisoned if they feed upon animals that have eaten the bait. Do not apply this product directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high-water mark. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment wash waters. Quote: USE RESTRICTIONS: This product may only be used to control feral hogs (Sus scrofa) on pastures, rangeland, forests, non-crop areas, and crop lands. This bait may only be applied in hog feeders equipped with heavy lids (8 to 10 lbs. of total weight) on bait compartments so as to limit direct access to bait by nontarget animals. Feral hogs must be conditioned to accept feed from the bait dispensers and to open the weighted lids to bait compartments. Kaput Feral Hog Bait: Page 3 of 5 Final Label 01.03.17 Do not apply this bait directly on the ground, including all types of ground surface (e.g., bare or plant-covered ground, paved surfaces, etc.). Apply this product only in hog feeders consistent with the description provided above. Apply bait in fenced areas, if available. When handling bait or animal carcasses, wear protective gloves made of barrier laminate, polyethylene, butyl rubber (>14 mils), nitrile rubber (>14 mils), neoprene rubber (>14 mils), natural rubber (>14 mils), polyvinyl chloride (>14 mils), or Viton (>14 mils). Store this product out of reach of children, pets, domesticated animals, and wildlife. Post bilingual caution signs (English and Spanish) in the treated areas to warn the public of the presence of the Warfarin bait and to forbid disturbance of bait dispensers and hog carcasses. Post these signs on public roads, trails, and pathways within and at common points of access to treated areas. All carcasses found must be disposed of properly. One last thought: remember when high-ranking US officials assured the public that Agent Orange was safe to use and posed no health risks to the troops??? Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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So you're saying that Texas did no independent testing of Kaput and that Tx Parks and Wildlife had no input? Can you prove your "handfed" assertion? I notice that common rat poison has FIVE times as much warfarin in it than does Kaput. It also says to dispose of dead rats, etc. Amazing anyone in the countryside is still alive. I am not too damn worried about Kaput, since 1000s if not millions of people ingest the active ingredient everyday and it has a very short half life and the fatal dose in humans is anywhere from 6 to 15 times that in pigs. (1mg/kg vs. 6-15mg/kg in humans) Like I said, I don't think it will work for several reasons, but all your objections to it's use are mostly or completely "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" BS, invented by people who don't want to poison hogs. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Given that Kaput has .005% warfarin, that means that a 25 pound container has 2 ounces of warfarin it it, which is under 57 grams. So, if I'm figuring this right, a 1000 pound cow (which is not a big cow but we'll call it average) would have to eat about 40 pounds of Kaput EVERYDAY for 5 days to have a LD50 (which means that 50 % of animals with this level of toxicity would die) death rate. Like I said, "the sky is falling". xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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