For shooting pigs, would there be any real difference in field performance, between these two cartridges?

Assume proper hunting bullets, 16" barrels, and body shots.

I would say yes in their factory form. Bullet weight for the Blackout begins where the 6.8 ends. But I use a 223 so what go I know?

What is the appeal of the 300 Blackout for hunting? I don't get it. I thought the cartridge was for subsonic loads using a silencer. What good could it possibly be for hunting deer and hogs, except maybe ear shots at 50 feet?

But the question was about body shots. Seems to me the difference would be significant, comparing the 6.8 and 300, assuming the 300 is subsonic.

KB

Sorry KB I should have stated in the OP that supersonic loads would be used in both cartridges.

Advantages for the 300 BLK are that it used standard AR magazines and the rifles can go from supersonic to subsonic suppressed or not and still function with no changes.

This might be a tough question to answer based on first-hand experience, because there are probably not many who have tried both cartridges.

If I had a 6.8 SPC, I would hunt pigs and/or deer with it and expect it to work fine. I wouldn't own a 300 Blackout, because I think it's a cartridge that has no place in hunting, except maybe for squirrels.

KB

The 300 BK in supersonic loading has similar bullet weight (125 gr vs 123 gr), bullet diameter (308 vs 311) and velocity (2300 vs 2400 fps) as the 7.62 x 39. So it can be a very effective deer and pig round given some discipline in refraining from longish shots.

The SPC comes in many loadings up to 120 grains that runs about 2450.

All of these velocities are based on 16" barrels and AR15 presure curves. They can be pushed a little with longer barrels and slower powders plus heavier bullets can be loaded in any of these rounds for additional penetration. But only the 300 Blackout comes in a readily available and affordable heavy bullet loading.

So why is .277/120 gr/2450 fps so much better at killing deer and pigs than .308/125 gr/2300 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
So why is .277/120 gr/2450 fps so much better at killing deer and pigs than .308/125 gr/2300 fps?

Answering, off the cuff, without analytical research, presuming that's safe here on AR, I had the notion that the 6.8 was capable of more speed than 2450, and I was thinking of the TSX bullet, and giving the .277 bullet credit for better SD.

Also, I figured there was no way the 300 blackout could equal the 7.62x39 in vel with the 123gr bullet, due to less powder capacity.

I do agree with your comment about "given some discipline in refraining from longish shots", however who is really gonna do that? (The implied answ of course is the kind of guy who wouldn't be shooting these cartridges at deer or hogs in the first place - generally) Based on my non-scientific assessment of the cartridges, one has to factor in the personality of the hunter/shooter who would choose such a cartridge in the first place as the 300 BO. It's a natural IMO for such a person to attribute more to the cartridge than what's actually available, so why pay attention to range?

KB

There you go again Kube, profiling a whole class of hunters' behavior because of the caliber they hunt with . By that reasoning I am virtuous beyond bounds because I hunt with a 550 Magnum...NOT!

Perhaps what I said gets a little close to something that some would rather just stay in denial about, eh? If the profile fits - well, there are always exceptions I suppose.

I have noticed, incidentally, that those who shoot at deer and hogs with a 223 are most proficient (compulsive?) at understating some things, and overstating other things, to justify certain behavior and beliefs. It's grounds for inference, IMO. If that's profiling, so be it.

As I said, I think the 6.8 as a potentially good deer or hog cartridge, but not the 300 Blackout. I still put both cartridges in about the same catagory. Because I would hunt hogs with a 6.8, but avoid the 300, perhaps that puts me in the exception to the profile. I would actually pay attention to range with either cartridge.

I would avoid the 300 because I think it's too specialized, and even the 7.62x39 is a better cartridge for hunting. I handloaded for my CZ527 and got about the same vel with .311 150gr bullets as can be had out of the 300 with 123gr bullets.

This is something I have thought about a lot, and came to the opinion that of all the cartridges for the AR15, in this catagory, I like the 6.5 Grendel best. The 6.8 SPC is close. I know this is arguable, but it's just an opinion, considering every factor that I can think of. I would definately not choose a 300 over the 6.5 Grendel. I hunted and got some deer last fall with my 6.5 Grendel bolt action, and it just clobbered them. I was very pleased with its effectivness, and I figure it would be very difficult to tell any difference if I had used a 6.8 SPC instead. I got a doe at 181 yds, per the range finder, the bullet exited and she went only about 20ft. The hit was less than perfect - a little too far back, but still effective. That time I used the Hornady factory ammo.

KB

My only rational explanation of your logic is that of the woman who hangs around wife beaters. Her opinion of men is defined be her experience. You need to find a better crowd

Now that you mention it, I don't hang out with "hunters" who use the 223. I do know some who claim they are, and I certainly wouldn't want to argue with them about that.

Perhaps you are right, and I should hang out with the "better crowd". I really ought to brush up on my rationalization skills anyway.

Hey, please give some credit for having tried the smaller cartridges on deer. I'm working on it. I even got a 243 recently, but haven't hunted with it yet.

KB

I have killed 2 deer with the 223, I used bullets suitable for deer, and I was careful with my shots, one for each deer and they dropped to the shot.
I still do not consider the 223 a regular deer hunting cartridge. I have never tried to shoot a pig with one.

I have killed 2 deer with the 7.62x39, using Hansen 123gr Soft Point ammo. Both deer shot at about 80/85 yards ran a short distance and fell down.

IF I was to use the 6.8 or the 300BLK I would limit my shots to 100/125 yards, which would be easy for me to do the way I hunt pigs. This would be mostly for night use in areas where pigs are being culled, and not harvested.

Still, I would not want to wound pigs, and let them run off and suffer.

Here are some stated ballistics of factory ammo in the 300 Blackout, the industry standard is with a 16" barrel.

110gr/2375fps
115/2280
125/2200 to 2250
155/1990
208/1020 [subsonic load]
220/1015 [subsonic load]

Ballistic Gel tests show good expansion and penetration with the supersonic loads at 12.8" with the 110 V Max, the other bullets range from 17" to 21".

not in a bad mood today.. just sharing in-line with questions...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
What is the appeal of the 300 Blackout for hunting?

110gr at 2337 - which is about 200fps faster than the 30carbine, and in an accurate rifle, or 130gr barnes tsx at 2200, which is about a 30/30, again in an accurate rifle, or 150 gr a 1800 -- so, a 308 at 300 yards in terms of energy, or a 30/30 at 75... quite a bit more than the 30 mauser, which was the most powerfule cartidge handgun round "in the world" for a long time, and in my destroyer carbine, capable of sub moa .. low noise, low recoil, high accuracy ... high cap mags.. etc etc etc... just a cuz you don't undertand it don't make it wrong

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't get it.

that's usually the sign of a closed mind that refuses to try .. my 7 year old niece USED to use that phrase all the time

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I thought the cartridge was for subsonic loads using a silencer.

its a dual purpose round.. sub and super sonic.. but subsonic doesn't MEAN silenced.. or short range ... if you do the balistics, its got about 175 yards of useful range in an AR platform, due to the normative distance of optics above bore

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
What good could it possibly be for hunting deer and hogs,

bang, flop --- and still roughly 12 times more powerful and 3 times the range of a bow..

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
except maybe ear shots at 50 feet?

bows can be shot at least 50 yards.. think about it

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
But the question was about body shots.

i've killed pigs with a 22... likely more than I should have, and several required more than one shot.. the blackout is more energy, more range, more accuracy, more damage, and more shots per minute than a bow...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Seems to me the difference would be significant, comparing the 6.8 and 300, assuming the 300 is subsonic.

you don't make body shots with the 300 when subsonic.. that's a bad assumption

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
KB

you might pick up a 7.62x25 pistol and a couple hundred rounds of cech ammo.. i bet you can hit lay birds on a dirt bank at 100 yards, with a little practice ... i don't suggest a 30 carbine as I have had a couple of those that couldn't hit side of a barn, from INSIDE...

net cost, 150 bucks for the cz52 and ammo .. and a PILE of fun

Well I did not mean to start a Hatfield and McCoy Fued.

I just wanted some opinions and hopefully maybe some actual use info on these calibres.

The idea is a handy light semiauto for culling pigs, using NVD and suppressors.

Put all that "stuff" on a semiauto in 308 and it becomes a wheeled artillary piece.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
not in a bad mood today.. just sharing in-line with questions...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kabluewy:
What is the appeal of the 300 Blackout for hunting?

110gr at 2337 - which is about 200fps faster than the 30carbine, and in an accurate rifle, or 130gr barnes tsx at 2200, which is about a 30/30, again in an accurate rifle, or 150 gr a 1800 -- so, a 308 at 300 yards in terms of energy, or a 30/30 at 75... quite a bit more than the 30 mauser, which was the most powerfule cartidge handgun round "in the world" for a long time, and in my destroyer carbine, capable of sub moa .. low noise, low recoil, high accuracy ... high cap mags.. etc etc etc... just a cuz you don't undertand it don't make it wrong

I think I do understand this, and that's why I think it's wrong. I'm not impressed with the stats above. It's not comparable to the 30-30 at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't get it.

that's usually the sign of a closed mind that refuses to try .. my 7 year old niece USED to use that phrase all the time

I just refuse to accept other's rationalizations.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I thought the cartridge was for subsonic loads using a silencer.

its a dual purpose round.. sub and super sonic.. but subsonic doesn't MEAN silenced.. or short range ... if you do the balistics, its got about 175 yards of useful range in an AR platform, due to the normative distance of optics above bore

Again, this is IMO a rationalization. I don't believe the cartridge serves its dual purpose well, either purpose. It has too little energy in both regards. IMO, the 7.62x39 is barely adequate, and this 300 isn't even up to snuff with it. Shooting hogs at 175yds with a 220gr subsonic load is absurd. It is like shooting a solid, no expansion expected at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
What good could it possibly be for hunting deer and hogs,

bang, flop --- and still roughly 12 times more powerful and 3 times the range of a bow..

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
except maybe ear shots at 50 feet?

bows can be shot at least 50 yards.. think about it

IMO, this isn't a bang flop cartridge, unless head, neck or spine shots. Comparing it to a hunting arrow is rediculous. Arrows kill from loss of blood, while bullets usely kill from shock. It's the shock that's lacking with this puny cartridge. Sure it will cause loss of blood, but a lot slower than an arrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
But the question was about body shots.

i've killed pigs with a 22... likely more than I should have, and several required more than one shot.. the blackout is more energy, more range, more accuracy, more damage, and more shots per minute than a bow...

Again with the bow and 22 comparison - not relevant

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Seems to me the difference would be significant, comparing the 6.8 and 300, assuming the 300 is subsonic.

you don't make body shots with the 300 when subsonic.. that's a bad assumption

quote:

you might pick up a 7.62x25 pistol and a couple hundred rounds of cech ammo.. i bet you can hit lay birds on a dirt bank at 100 yards, with a little practice ... i don't suggest a 30 carbine as I have had a couple of those that couldn't hit side of a barn, from INSIDE...

net cost, 150 bucks for the cz52 and ammo .. and a PILE of fun

What's it coming to? What has this AR15 thingy done to the hunter tradition and culture? Turned many into a bunch of tech toy whackos, spray and prey? Where did the logic go, of useing an adequate tool, instead of counting on a high rate of follow up shots, head shots, or oh well that one got away, buzzards need to eat too attitude?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Well I did not mean to start a Hatfield and McCoy Fued.

I just wanted some opinions and hopefully maybe some actual use info on these calibres.

The idea is a handy light semiauto for culling pigs, using NVD and suppressors.

Put all that "stuff" on a semiauto in 308 and it becomes a wheeled artillary piece.

I understand your question, and answering from some experience, with a cartridge similar to the 6.8 SPC. I agree with your assessment of the 308, while plenty adequate, IMO it's more than enough, and I too prefer the lighter platform. I just think the 6.8 or the 6.5 is just about perfect, and will give you more useful range.

I would rather have a fast twist 223 for hog culling or hunting than a 300 Blackout. I think the popularity of the 300 Blackout is proof of just how gullable people are.

Also, I don't mind mixing a little debate in this as well.

You wouldn't want us to bore you or dissappoint you?

KB

I do not mind the debate, I just hate it when a post gets down to name calling.

I have shot a lot of pigs with a 308 and several with my 30/30 Heym O/U.

As a rough estimate I would say around 50% drop to the shot with the 308, or run less than 15 yards.

With the 30/30 about 25% drop to the shot, none have run more than about 85 yards.

Strangely size of the hog does not seem to figure into the statistics.

What has become of the 30AR? Isn't that one still available from Remington in the R-15 rifle?

KB

KB

If you look at the published ballistics of the 30 AR it would seem to be the cream of the crop.

Remington 30 AR:
125gr at 2800fps
150 at 2500fps.

However I have never seen a rifle, or any of the ammo...

But I can say this, my Nephew and I have killed several deer and several pigs, from as close as 15 yards to a little over 100 yards with the Remington 308 Managed Recoil load, with a 125 gr bullet at 2660fps [factory specs], with EXCELLENT results.

It kills as good as 150/165/168 gr hunting loads in the 308 near as I can tell.

I can see how the Military might like the 300 BLK for some Ops, and the 6.8 was a hot ticket for a while, but for a sportsman the 30 AR would seem to be a better all round choice.

However for pig culling, well handled, the 300 BLK or the 6.8 might be "just enough".

Yea, all good points of discussion.

This "just enough" concept is kinda what I'm talking about. It seems that there is a lot of movement towards that, in general, and I have been guilty of it somewhat. so, I can understand it, but I resist it, and I'm also critical of it.

Yes, I didn't think of the managed loads in the 308, especially if they would cycle alright in an AR.

I also think the 30AR is the ticket. I just looked on Remington's web site, and it's listed as available. I looked on Gunbroker and found some outstanding deals on the whole rifles. I looked on Midway, and ammo is available in 150gr loads. I didn't see any brass.

It's aweful tempting, and "enough" rifle too.

KB

KB

I have never been a "user" of the "just enough" train of thought.

When I shot deer with a 223 and the 7.62x39 I was hunting doe, and if I did not kill anything on those particular days, ie.,did not have the perfect shot, no big deal.

I considered those hunts, handgun hunts, black powder [ I have killed 2 pigs and a doe deer with a black powder rifle, all on the same day, within one hour ]and archery hunts, [I have killed a doe and a nice 8 point buck with a bow] as "stunt" hunts.

My personal definition of a "stunt" hunt, is any hunt, where you use less than the ideal weapon for the kill. On these hunts you must hold your "fire' until you have the perfect shot, for the weapon you are using.

There is nothing wrong with using less than the ideal weapon. In many states Primitive weapons open up a lot more hunting days...

You just must accept the fact that you will see animals, that you could easially kill with the correct rifle, that with a handgun, bow, black powder, or minimal calibre rifle, the perfect shot does just not happen.

In the Words of Dirty Harry, "a Man has got to know his limitations", and I will add the limitations of his hunting weapon of choice..

Yea, well said. And tactful too.

That's why I like the 6.5 Grendel, and perhaps the 243, and I would hunt with a single shot rifle - no problem, black powder or pistol too. Even though they are less than what I consider ideal all-around, I enjoy the special limitations they place on me, and they actually increase the enjoyment. I just draw the line in a different place than some. I would never feel right about shooting at deer or hogs with a 22 LR or 22 Mag. I could do it with a 300 BO, but I just wouldn't enjoy the kind of limitations I think are necessary with that cartridge. And besides, I would be easily tempted to not abide its limitations and be dissappointed.

KB

I have hunted with single shots, still do, and I hunt with iron sighted rifles too. I killed 2 deer last season with an iron sighted 405 WCF in 1895. I had 2 occasions where I could not get a shot at deer, because I could not see the iron sights good enough. It happened 3 times on pigs. If I would have had a scoped gun I would have had meat on the ground each time...

I accepted the limitations of my sight system, but there was never any doubt of the power of the cartridge...

My main concern is, when I place my shot properly, I want to be sure that the cartridge I am using has more than, enough thump, to do the job.

The wife and I have killed a bunch of whitetail deer with a 243, many with a Ruger No1.

She has killed a monster mule deer and several antelope with it as well.

We always used either a 100gr Sierra or a 95 gr Nolser Partition. The only reason I switched her from the 243 to the 308 is because we got on a lease with some big pigs.

The 243 always killed great for us.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Now that you mention it, I don't hang out with "hunters" who use the 223. I do know some who claim they are, and I certainly wouldn't want to argue with them about that.

Perhaps you are right, and I should hang out with the "better crowd". I really ought to brush up on my rationalization skills anyway.

Hey, please give some credit for having tried the smaller cartridges on deer. I'm working on it. I even got a 243 recently, but haven't hunted with it yet.

KB

The first step to self realization is the 243. Congrats! FWIW I don't hunt deer with a 223 anyore; I just like to argue.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
KB

If you look at the published ballistics of the 30 AR it would seem to be the cream of the crop.

Remington 30 AR:
125gr at 2800fps
150 at 2500fps.

However I have never seen a rifle, or any of the ammo...

But I can say this, my Nephew and I have killed several deer and several pigs, from as close as 15 yards to a little over 100 yards with the Remington 308 Managed Recoil load, with a 125 gr bullet at 2660fps [factory specs], with EXCELLENT results.

It kills as good as 150/165/168 gr hunting loads in the 308 near as I can tell.

I can see how the Military might like the 300 BLK for some Ops, and the 6.8 was a hot ticket for a while, but for a sportsman the 30 AR would seem to be a better all round choice.

However for pig culling, well handled, the 300 BLK or the 6.8 might be "just enough".

CDNN has Remington R15s in 30 AR on sale now for $800.00. Of the bunch I'd be inclined toward the 6.5 Grendel. I already have a 223 AR and a 458 SOCOM; the 6.5 or the 30 AR would fit neatly in between. I worry about the long term availabilty of 30 AR ammo. It doesn't seem to be catching on like the others. If your shots are limited to 100-125 yards the big bore ARs are the ticket assuming you can put up with the cost of ammo.

We started night vision hunting a few years ago and went with 308 chambered ARs. The 308 is tough on hogs, even if you make a bad shot it still breaks them down or slows them enough for a follow up most of the time. My 10 yr old son shoots a 223 using cheap FMJ ammo. He has killed many many hogs with this rifle both standing and running. Shot placement is more critical with the 223 so we try to pick his shots. He has killed several large boar with the biggest being 245 at roughly 100 steps. Neck shot with 223,FMJ and a true bang flop! We dont sit on bait, all hunting is spot and stalk, closer the better, more exciting and more time for follow up shots as they are running away.

Recently I started hunting with a Noveske 10.5" 300 blackout and so far I really like this rifle!! Here's why,

1. Has a cool name
2. light and compact, even once equipped with NV, suppressor,IR device,laser,cup holder etc this gun is easy to carry all night. !(Great for kids and ladies) The 308 (even my 12.5" LWRC) is just plain big, bulky and heavy compared to the Blackout
3. accurate
4. Very little recoil and noise (great for kids/ladies)
5. Lots of ammo options and not too expensive to shoot, (Great for dads wallet)
6. We have been using a load from Custom Reloads of Dallas, 110 gr Barnes, accurate and kills well. Also used the Remington load (125 gr match bullet) it kills as well! Have not used the Subsonic on hogs put will soon. Chad at Custom reloads says he gets clean pass throughs on hogs using 208 amax subsonic ammo.
7. The low recoil allows the user to stay on target.
8. Cool looking round!

I think it is certainly a more efficient killer than the 223, not as good as the 308 however with the advantages of reduced weigh, compact, low recoil factored in I now have a very expensive 308 rig that rarely leaves the safe!

Brother in law and I used the 300 Whisper for years on deer and smaller black bears out of the TC with a 14" barrel, since its basicly the same as the Blackout I don't see where it would fail.

I will chime in on this discussion if I may. I am an avid fan of the AR platform and have a few of them. I have had a 6.5 Grendel for several years and have two others chambered in 5.56/223. When I bought my Grendel the 6.8SPC wasn't what it is today. With the development of the 6.8SPCII (which is like a 5.56 chamber vs. 223) and slower twist barrel of 1:11" or 1:12" the 6.8 has been improved. You net about 150 to 200fps over the original loading. One of the nice things about the 6.8 was it was designed for optimal performance out of a 16" barrel vs. longer barrels. Now that bullet manufacturers have everything from 85gr up to 120gr bullets for the 6.8 it really is a viable cartridge. It is a decent intermediate range deer/hog caliber.

The Black out cartridge is pretty close to the 7.62X39 but works out of an AR (something the 7.62X39 failed at). The only thing you need is a barrel swap for your AR as you use the same bolt, buffer, magazines, and lower. It is a cheaper version of the 300 whisper since it uses .223 brass.

If a person wasn't interested in shooting suppressed then you could go with the Wilson Combat cartridge 7.62x40. It is based off of the .223 case and is meant for super sonic. I think it has a little more velocity than the 300 acc. The 300ACC is 7.62x35 so 5mm shorter is all. I think either round would work when you are hunting from a blind or stand and you are under 200yds.

The 30AR is said to be a very effective round and if Remington would get off their duffs and market this a little better and make it more widely available I think it would take off. Right now they are hard to find and brass isn't any easier for those who are looking for it. Nor are the magazines. I do know a guy who has one and he really likes it but is disappointed with Remington for not supporting the cartridge better. He has used it on Eastern WA Mule Deer with great success.

I have a 300 whisper carbine (virtually the same as the black out) and push a 125 Ballistic tip 2300 fps. I have killed two pigs with it, shoulder shots and both pretty much dropped at the shot

Couple of three years ago I realized that I had become a big bore snob. Lightest rifles I used much was a .338 Win Mag or 9,3x62.

I would not deny that either of those or the bigger fellas are effective They are very decisive indeed.

But looking at the safe, I had only taken one deer w a 5.56 and one w a 30-30 in the last 10 or 12 years. Really didn't have much that I considered effective to bring along grandchildren.

So I acquired an 6,8 SPC II. Found it works pretty well!

Got interested in suppressors and subsonic loads so I built a 300 Whisper which eventually became a 300 BLK.

Have hunted the supersonic 6,8s with the can and the subsonic 300 BLK with the can. Both work pretty much as advertised if used within rational ranges and with appropriate aiming points.

The 300 BLK's great strength is at close range suppressed. It really is VERT quiet! Would make a great CQB or entry weapon. The 6,8 is a good hunting rifle to 300 yards or so for most careful shooters I think.

Really is no need for the two groups of users to battle one another ... lots of room in the field for both.

A friend shoots a 300 Whisper, basically the Blackout, in a Contender pistol.

The performance exceeds the 30-30 and is pretty close to 30 Herret. There are guys who claim to exceed the 30 Herret in a 300 Whisper.

If you think of what is hunted with a 30-30 you should do that easily with a Blackout.

I think too many folks get hung up on paper ballistics. I recommend they go out and find out for themselves what will work and what will not.

I hunt almost exclusively with revolvers and their paper ballistics make all of the rifle cartridges in this discussion look like howitzers. But, if you think they are terminally ineffective, you would be dead wrong and I have killed a pile of hogs and other game animals with aplomb with revolvers.

Carry on.

My buddies are going to make up a couple of 6.8SPC's. After a lot of study we think it has just enough more "umph" to make it a better choice.
After they shoot some pigs I will report back.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
My buddies are going to make up a couple of 6.8SPC's. After a lot of study we think it has just enough more "umph" to make it a better choice.
After they shoot some pigs I will report back.

I applaud them for going out and doing it rather than arguing theory on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
My buddies are going to make up a couple of 6.8SPC's. After a lot of study we think it has just enough more "umph" to make it a better choice.
After they shoot some pigs I will report back.

Nice choice. I bought a mini 14 in 6.8 not long ago. I think the only difference between the 2 rounds is range. Most 308 bullets are designed for reliable expansion at higher velocity. The blackout will quickly drop below reliable expansion velocity. Of course blackout bullets are becoming available and Barnes appears to have a great one with a massive HP covered by a plastic tip.

For my 6.8, I'm just using factory 120 Hornady SST ammo which should give me 2500 out of an 18" barrel. That load only drops 10" at 300 yards when sighted in at 200 yards and will still being going fast enough to reliably expand.

Of course where I hunt, a 300 yard shot will never happen and I wouldn't want to attempt it with a mini 14 anyway but the theory is good if I was using a different rifle.

N E 450: You may want to consider a Mech Tech carbine in 460 Rowland. Tactical hogs or some such wildlife control outfit that does exactly what you are describing (suppressors and NVD) has posted on the Mech Tech Systems forum about the suitability of the Mech Tech carbine.