I have always liked the look of the old Unertl scopes - the very long scopes with the external elevation and windage adjustment being on the rear mount and with a long spring to hold every thing in tension.

But I have never seen one in the flesh nor looked through. How good were the optics and are they usable, or a design that quite rightly fell by the wayside because fundamentally they don't work.

Well, I haven't used one either but would be eager to add them to my collection were it not for the difficulty of buying online while jumping through the hoops of US export laws - and the very name of Unertl is likely to set bells ringing.

However, it is my inclination that Unertl and Bausch & Lomb were among the finest scopes in the world and that their mechanical integrity may have exceeded that of even the best German scopes, in that they preferred not to put any reticle movement inside the tubes.

Unertl did make reticle-movement scopes, too, which were probably better than most other US brands, if only because they realised the importance of not cushioning lenses. They seem to have been the default brand used by American snipers for several decades and I have found no evidence so far that Unertl ever fell for the BS of 'constantly centred' reticles.

I would love to find a Hawk or Falcon for sale somewhere outside the USA.

If you are interested in their outlook from the golden age of riflescopes (IMHO), Cornell Publications (www.cornellpubs.com) has reprinted Unertl Telescopes - The Ultimate in Optical and Mechanical Design (c.1956) and I thoroughly recommend it. It will probably tell you even more than you want to know about their target scopes. Nick Stroebel's Old Gunsights & Rifle Scopes (Gun Digest Books 2008) has about four pages on Unertl, including the history and pre-GFC values - John Unertl learnt his craft in WWI Germany and his target scopes are worth heaps.

Though Schmidt & Bender may have made greater advances in lenses and turret technology (only possible because image-movement makes it look as though you can wind forever without the reticle getting out of whack) I suspect lack of space-aged marketing and other management issues were the real reasons for Unertl's demise.

The late John J. Unertl from PA. built exceptional scopes. His external adjustment scopes are still being used and you'll find them mostly at single shot Schutzen type competitions, or with older benchrest shooters.
If you go to Benchrestcentral.com You will find in the classifieds some going for sale.
They don't have the multi whizbang coatings of today. But they are exceptional, rugged and repeatable.
Few internal adjustment scopes were made such as the 10x Vulture. Mimicking the older USMS sniper scope. The only difference was the size of the knobs, all 1" tubes.
After the passing of John J . Unertl, the company eventually was sold and production appeared for a couple of years. I have not seen anything in 10 years and cannot vouch for the newer production quality or if they're still in buss.

o boy - i've used unertls for years now. they were the best of the best in their time. the new coatings have surpassed them now though. careful of the internal adjustment ones - the old ones did not have centered crosshairs - partially because old john didn't like it that they messed up with the optics some. john forgot more about optics than anyone knew - and if you can ever find or afford one of his huge team scope spotters buy it quick it might take some looking but if you can fined one of his 10x scopes from the nam - they were terrific

Yes, mlfguns, they had a great reputation. Because I don't use scopes to find game and only hunt in legal hours, the ruggedness of scopes is more important to me than absolute light gathering and resolution.

Unertl made a range of internal-adjustment scopes, all with the names of predatory birds: the 2.75x Falcon, 4x Hawk and 6x Condor. The 8x and 10x 'Vulture' Varmint/Target scopes could apparently be had with or without internal adjustments. The founder, John Unertl, died in 1960 but the company continued until 2008, making scopes only for the government towards the end but possibly other products as well - pistols ring a bell.

Butchloc, I envy your ownership of them. I imagine the main thing people need to be careful of with the internal-adjustment type is that they mount them straight, using laterally adjustable mounts and shims if necessary. Though I agree with the Unertl and B&L philosophy that external-adjustment scopes are best, the old reticle-movement scopes are the next best.

Though some modern makers seem to be finally getting their act together with 'constantly centred' reticles, the very idea is dodgy and would be better avoided were there any current alternative available. Valdada was making the old type in tactical scopes three or four years ago but I'm not sure if that continues.

Thanks gents. One day I would love to have mounted on a single shot built on a Martini action.

I started in benchrest competition with an external adjustment Unertl 20X many years ago and used it for a few seasons before switching. It was long and heavy but it worked very well for my purpose.

I have a real old Unertl, I think its a 4X or a 6X, its been in my gun case for several years..As for as I know it still works and its clear, metal is nice..Id sell it for a reasonable price, make me an offer by Pm or phone of email..
Ray

Years ago (late 1970's) I had a friend whose father had a Remington 700 in .25-06 with a Unertl scope with the windage and elevation adjustments in the mounts. As I recall it was a 10X.

Very fine crosshairs. Not much field of view. But it sure put the bullets where they were aimed. We fought like dogs to get to borrow that rifle for a few shots at the range.

I never got to see how it handled rain or a drop when slicing down a muddy slope. It kind of had an erector set feel with the external adjustments.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie P.(NY):
... It kind of had an erector set feel with the external adjustments.

It certainly had a fixed erector set, not one bumping around when you touched off - but what exactly do you mean by that reference?

i have a 15x 2" on an old savage 1923 nra, the rife that has the bore and action all reamed from the same piece of steel. every one i ever heard about shot exceptionally well. anyway, it is fun to play with the adjustment knobs and they look cool and all, but they are a royal pain in the ass to use in the field.

the problem is the depth of focus. if you adjust for 100 yards, they are out of focus by 95 and 105. i do not remember the exact numbers, but it really is close to that. maybe not even that much depth. and to make matters worse, you have to reach down almost to the muzzle to make adjustments. that may not sound like a problem, but trust me, even having long arms does not help much. looking through the scope and reaching down to slowly turn the scope is a balancing at.

but as i said, they look really cool and i personally have fun adjusting the elevation and windage with the little clicky knoobs. way more cun than adjusting with regular target knobs!

the rifle and scope setup was ideal for one thing i did. when i lived in the arkansas delta, our winters were invaded by every type of bird imaginable. particularly blackbirds and starlings. there was a large pecan tree 60ish yards from a bathroom's window. i focused the scope for the middle of the tree and killed an unreal number of the beasts. every bare limb was the perfect resting spot for a target. i just ejected the empties on the floor. when there were 85 or so shells on the floor i would sweep them up and lean the rifle back in the corner.

i have also used a unertl spotting scope on the range. both the it and the rifle scopes are very good. but they are not schmidt and benders, swaro, leica, and the like.

and yes, the schutzen shooters i knew had them. they looked double cool on their single shots. if you want one to play with, just take good care of it and you will probably be able to sell it for a profit.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie P.(NY):
... It kind of had an erector set feel with the external adjustments.

It certainly had a fixed erector set, not one bumping around when you touched off - but what exactly do you mean by that reference?

Reference to the Gilbert Erector Set - a product for young folks that you to build various devices. I meant it had exposed components that looked more mechanical than a modern internally-adjusted optic.

As Leopold Bloom would say: up like a rocket, down like a stick.

Nowadays we have big blue tablets

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
i have a 15x 2" on an old savage 1923 nra, the rife that has the bore and action all reamed from the same piece of steel. every one i ever heard about shot exceptionally well. anyway, it is fun to play with the adjustment knobs and they look cool and all, but they are a royal pain in the ass to use in the field.

the problem is the depth of focus. if you adjust for 100 yards, they are out of focus by 95 and 105. i do not remember the exact numbers, but it really is close to that. maybe not even that much depth. and to make matters worse, you have to reach down almost to the muzzle to make adjustments. that may not sound like a problem, but trust me, even having long arms does not help much. looking through the scope and reaching down to slowly turn the scope is a balancing at.
...

That depth of focus is probably to do with the high power and (IIRC) is linked to adjusting the parallax. They were target scopes and once you had the range, the focus would cease to be a problem.

I've owned a Unertl BV-20 super Grade in the past.. I think the modern glass I have on my Zeiss and Leupold scopes is better, (it's the coatings that make the difference) but what I liked and think was best about the Unertl externally adjustable scopes, was the adjustments. Infinitely repeatable with 100% confidence, and easier than an internal adjusted scope..

I have both a 1 1/2" Unertl and a Lyman Target Spot in 20 power. I used the Unertl on my 308 bolt gun as it had posi mounts and the Lyman with standard mounts on my small bore rifle. They were direct competitors at the time (1960s) and as good optical quality as you could get in that time frame.

You have to remember, even if they have a recoil spring; they need to be pulled back and rotational load put on them after every shot to insure they return to zero. On big bore rifle I intentionally set the recoil spring about an inch or so ahead of the mount to limit the recoil load on the scope.

quote:

Originally posted by gbs:
... On big bore rifle I intentionally set the recoil spring about an inch or so ahead of the mount to limit the recoil load on the scope.

So the scope has a bit of free travel before meeting any significant resistance? If so, this would have made the scopes even less likely to stuff up from recoil.

Unertl was well aware of the damage recoil could do, warning that any movement of the reticle forward or back could cause parallax.

No wonder poor old John (Johann?) pegged out in 1960 - a broken heart from contemplating the future of optics could have done it.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie P.(NY):

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie P.(NY):
... It kind of had an erector set feel with the external adjustments.

It certainly had a fixed erector set, not one bumping around when you touched off - but what exactly do you mean by that reference?

Reference to the Gilbert Erector Set - a product for young folks that you to build various devices. I meant it had exposed components that looked more mechanical than a modern internally-adjusted optic.

Man I loved my erector set, but that one even predates me!

The brand that did that sort of stuff here and in the UK was Meccano. I don't recall them including ICBMs, though.

Checking the spelling, I see they are still going - but the British purveyors may be going for a Burton.