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One of Us |
OK guys I just got back from the SHOT Show & I really liked the NightForce MLR in 5.5-22 x50 but I also really liked the Mark 4 6.5-20x50mm LR/T M1 Illuminated Reticle by Leupold, there were several others there that caught my eye (Zeiss) but I really liked both of these & just wanted to get some thoughts from others that may own one or both & could provide some input before I make the buy. By the way the scope will be going on a Remington 700 action with a Christensen carbon barrel chambered in 300 WBY Mag, so I’m looking for a long range scope to shoot out to 600 yards. Thanks for all the help! | ||
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sdeshazo, Though I don't own a Nightforce I have closely compared the two... The Nightforce would be my hands down favorite if I was looking for a 50 mm long range scope... They have some of the best glass and coatings on the market and are incredibly durable... They are also more expensive then the Leupolds... My two cents would be the Nightforce after all, they are designed for and used by the military... Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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sdeshazo, Having looked at both I'd prefer the NightForce waaaaaay more than the Leupold. I'm curious as to why you even bothered to compare the two. The Nightforce is by far and away better in every comparison I would care to make. $bob$  | |||
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Yes the NF is a better scope, but is it $500 beter than the Leupold? The main reason I'm having a problem buying the NF is to change the illumination setting I have to basically tear the scope apart, for that kind of money I think that is a bad design. | |||
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Nightforce has the best glass and coatings in the bussiness ? No. There is essentially no difference in glass and coatings for all the major makers. The only real difference comes from how well the inside of the scope is painted and baffeled against stry light. At this, Zeiss and Leupold lead the pack. E | |||
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What're you smoking? You're kidding... Right?  $bob$ | |||
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sdes... I have used both Leupold and Nightforce exstensively and the NF product is WAY better. If you have the 500.00 the NF is handsdown the scope to buy. Your accessment of having to tear down the NF is incorrect. I set mine once and have not needed to change it again, this is a fool proof operation. In extreme heats, like 120-130*,Leupolds ill. dials stip out leaving you with No illumination when you REALLY needed it. I have seen the NF sawed in half and their guts are metal not plastic, they are bullet proof. My personal scope has a huge dent in the front bell where the rifle it was previously on was thrown from a Humvee and run over. The scope was given a though once over and 100s of rounds later zero has not changed. You absolutely can not put the two in the same class. Perry | |||
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Perry, Now that is the report I was looking for. Thank you! I know what you mean about the illumination setting, I understand why they made it the way they did. | |||
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sdes... NF scopes are so well/strongly built that a used NF is going to be mechanically like new. If the glass is in good shape you have, in my opinion, a superior scope to all the others on the market. Look around at some of the sniper websites and you can probably find a used one. Make sure it is a newer model, 3-4 years old, those are the really good ones. I think it is when they started the NXS line but I am not sure about that. All this said, Leupold are not bad scopes at all. They just are not NFs. Perry | |||
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It is commonly excepted, by anyone sane, that the most expensive component in a riflescope is optical glass and the coating technology. That would explain the $1000 difference between a VX3 and the VX7. There are approx. 15 different grades of optical glass used in sport optics. Nothing could be further from the truth than the above mentioned quote. | |||
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This guy compares his S&B PMII 4-16x50 P3 doubleturn, USO SN-3 3.2-17x44 GAP EREK, NXS 5-22x50 NP-R2  http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=006030
Personally, I have a Mark 4 6.5-20x50mm LR/T M1 Illuminated Reticle by Leupold, and it weights allot less than a Nightforce. | |||
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Unless the guy at Sniper Hide has put those to the "test" in warfare on 3 continents I stand by my OPINION, which is only what it is...and we know what is said about opinions. Also, the reason our Mk4s are lighter is the fact that some of their internals are plastic, I'll take the weight. Perry | |||
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nightforce 100 times over mate. way better than leupold. | |||
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Nightforce is not 100 times heavier than Leupold, only twice as heavy  | |||
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If you are a benchrest shooter, you will stand in line to get the internals of your Leupold frozen and pay around $500-$600 for external scope adjustment rings. We wouldn't do it unless the internals were crappy. I don't do that on my Nightforce. I can't tell any real difference in the glass. Butch | |||
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All of today's sport optics use the same glass and only have the tiniest differences in coatings. All the current big makers test in the 90-94% range when tested in optics labs. The actual differences are much more the degree of internal baffling to control stray light then any "secret formula" of glass and coatings. Talk about tough and heavy, then why is it that one of AR's own, Ray Atkinson, found that the toughest scope for really heavy kickers was the 6.5 oz. Leupold 2.5X Compact ? | |||
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What kind of testing did Mr.Atkins do and to what extent? Leupold is not a bad scope, quite the contray BUT it is not in the same class of scope that the NXS is in. Perry | |||
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haha. nightforce are more repeatable. | |||
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Say what you want I have a NF compact 1x4 on my 375. It is a hell of a better scope than a leupold. it is worth the extra $500 I spent. 505ED DRSS Member | |||
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Just ignore oheremicus. Everybody else does. Nobody knows who he is... He won't respond to requests for his name, location, or to meet someone.  He just repeats the same nonsensical gibberish over and over and over and doesn't seem to understand that he's the brunt of a lot of jokes and that nobody who has heard his drivel more than a few times will do any more than make fun of him. He's somewhat of an institution on the 24 hr Campfire and the brunt of hundreds of jokes. At least he doesn't seem to mind.  I guess SOMEBODY has to be the bottom of the food chain... $bob$ | |||
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NF hands down if money is no object IMHO. Glass differences among the top brands are minute. However, NightForce actually individually matches each lens in the stack (about 7 lenses for a variable scope, which is why I hunt with a fixed power!). Every lens, no matter who makes it, has a few flaws. NightForce has trained people rotate the lenses to maximize clarity and light transmission on each an every scope. They test EVERY ONE of their scopes to almost twice the Naval SOCOM specs, which are tighter than any MilSpec. The company is even more concerned about stability, repeatability and reliability than they are about clarity. Optical clarity at the high end is so overblown on rifle scopes its a bit rediculous. On binocs it makes a bigger difference, in my opinion. NF's windage and elevation adjustment mechanism is the most reliable and repeatable ever tested (ever) by the Naval Special Warfare Center. I don't doubt that there's an optical similarity among Leupold, NightForce, Zeiss, etc, etc, etc, but for ruggedness, reliability, etc. the difference is dramatic according to the people who use them day in and day out (SOCOM operators). | |||
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I agree, you can pretty much run a nightforce over with a truck and itll still work perfectly. all of those reasons are why you pay twice as much for a nightforce. | |||
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Maybe in NZ Nightforce is 200% of Leupold price, but in the US, I am seeing these kinds of prices for apples and apples:
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Hi, I have a NF NXS mounted on my favourite rifle. A darn great glass - with one disadvantage: The illumination. As the WHOLE reticle is illuminated, it is irritating - even in the lowest power-setting. So for hunting in dawn/darkness, I'd prefer the Leupold, as they're illuminating just the center-cross. But if you want it for long-range shooting, why don't you go for the NF 8-32 Benchrest? BR Kwagga Where you hit an animal is within reason much more important than what you hit it with and a shot in the right place is worth more than a dozen in the wrong! Kevin Robertson | |||
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Kwagga The NXS was developed as a tactical scope for urban warfare. The whole reticle is lit for hard holds when dialing in distance is not an option due to time. NF has hard holds built into the scope at 8 power. The whole reicle must be lit to be effective. Perry | |||
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Aaaah - O.K.! That explains a lot!!! As I took the 8-32 NXS for long distance shots, I don't bother much about the the illumination. But as the reticle is in the ocular plane, you're depending more on the illumination than you would with maybe a heavy duplex or #4 in the objective plane, in case of an occasional "late shot". BR Kwagga Where you hit an animal is within reason much more important than what you hit it with and a shot in the right place is worth more than a dozen in the wrong! Kevin Robertson | |||
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Last I checked though Leupold only honors it's warranty for one year on the illuminated part. I haven't checked recently but that would be a big negative. Plus I've never seen a Leupold that needed an illuminated reticle anyway because their optics just aren't bright enough. $bob$ | |||
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Well I now know why there are so many scope manufactures , because there are ten times the opinions !. I offer my own . I don't own a NF !. How ever I do own Zeiss , Swarovski , Leupold and several other makes as well as several models and powers . For myself as well as several fellow hunters , hands down ZEISS is the top dog for optics bar none !. Clarity and return to zero is what I base that statement on . Leupold as well as Swarovski are real close seconds . Swarovski , Zeiss are on Big Bore jaw breakers , Leupold is on 7 MM Mag , 0/6 , 308 , 223 . Zeiss is on 416 Rem Mag , 338-378 , 338 Win Mag. Swarovski 375 H&H and 338 Lapua . I have yet to see optic Failure hunting on 5 Continents from any of these !. Believe me when I tell you Airlines , Trains , 4X4's , hiking and sliding down rock chasms , not to mention banging a tree or 50 will do to any scope !. lest we forget not the components makes for the complete package , but the person behind it all !.  | |||
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Not that many in Asia. Many brands, like VCRs, few places build them. There is no Night Force factory, it is built on the same production line as many other brands. Gale Mcmillan won a US Marines scope supplier contract and had the scope built at Light Optical Works in Japan. He visited the short list of factories in Asia. He has written about in archives of rec.guns [google groups] and The Firing line. His advice to me was to always buy Leupold, and if I can't afford it, get B&L. But he is dead now, and I have many telling me to get an S&B, Kales, Swavorski, USO, Zeiss, IOR, and Night Force. But the next scope I buy will probably be an 8x32x50 Burris Black Diamond for shooting ground squirrels. | |||
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"Gale Mcmillan won a US Marines scope supplier contract and had the scope built at Light Optical Works in Japan. He visited the short list of factories in Asia. He has written about in archives of rec.guns [google groups] and The Firing line. His advice to me was to always buy Leupold, and if I can't afford it, get B&L." I mean no disrespect, but the Naval Special Warfare Command (seals, rangers, delta, other nasty folk) would currently disagree with Mr. McMillan, may he rest in peace. Of course, NSWC has a bit more cash to play with on a per-scope basis than the Marine Corps. "There is no Night Force factory, it is built on the same production line as many other brands." There certainly is a Night Force factory in Orofino, Idaho. Yes, some of their scopes are made in Japan, but some are made in the US. However, there is no factory on the planet, other than theirs, that meets their particular specifications. I know that sounds rediculous and that, with training and knowledge of optical instraments other factories "could" meet their specs. Its the fact that they are so particular about clearances and tolerances in certain areas to ensure water/air tight seals that no one wants to go through the trouble. The finest lathes have trouble holding NF's tolerances. What happens is that the Japanese made scopes are nearly re-manufactured in NightForce's factory right along side their US made scopes. They put an inordinate amount of time into testing and checking specs on the Japanese made scopes, each one is brought to a seasoned expert to tighten up then it is re-tested. NF's training program for new hires is almost boot-camp-ish and requires quite a few years until they are ready to tackle the more intracate parts of the scope. Other companies (not Leupold!) get their scopes from Japan already packaged in their shipping boxes with labels printed and bar code labels attached, no inspection necessary. I don't own a NF and most likely never will, but its the most impressive factory I've seen in 19 years of manufacturing management and consulting experience. The owner, managers and staff are absolutely passionate about making the finest optical instruments available in terms of durability and repeatability. The scopes I own (Weaver Grand Slams, very, very happy with them, plan to move up to a Leupold next time) will work for me for many years of hunting and varminting. Optically/clarity wise they are on par with Night Force. However, their internal design (and yours, if you don't own a NF) are quite different from the tolerances and system NF uses. If you've got the cash and don't mind an extra few ounces go Night Force. If they built a fixed power 4 or 6 I think I'd be saving my pennies for the last big game scope I'd ever buy. I don't like variables on my big game rifles but love them when shooting sod poodles! | |||
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I could be full of shit. But I seem to remember that when Night Force was in Kent WA, it was a couple cars parked in front of an office in a business park. They would not tell anyone where the scopes came from, but we know where scopes come from, the same place Tasco got em. And where does Sightron get their scopes? Burris Fullfield? SWFA SuperSniper? Leupold Wind River Binoculars? Bushnell? Nikon? Simmons? Weaver Redfield? BSA? Shepherd? Tasco? PineRidge? Colt? Thompson Centerfire? Mueller? Hakko? Rapid Reticle? Famous Maker NCSTAR Nighteater? Optronics? Swift? Yukon? I think the way it works is, you pay your money and they put your name on the product. | |||
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tnekkcc That is the way it WAS but NF has had their own factory for at least 6-10 years. You are correct about the Tasco connection in the past and that is why in the past (10 years ago) NF was not even a real concideration in a tactical scope. That has ALL changed. Perry | |||
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tnekkcc, I think you're right about the rest of the companies on your list but Perry's right about NF's factory. Apparently they are part of the same company from Australia that owns Light Force (lighting for off road vehicles). It amazes me how different the other scopes are on your list coming out of the same factories in Japan and China. The tubes, finish, knobs, etc. all look different but I'll bet (I don't know) that the guts are all very similar. My understanding is that "they" can get glass from several sources in Europe and Japan and that you pay for the crystal and the finish. The factory slaps in whatever glass the company bought. I'm also amazed at how good most scopes are in any price range. It's still my opion that the whole scope argument is much less of an issue than getting good binos and/or spotter for the normal hunter with a non-big bore rifle. | |||
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Butch- what do you mean by frozen? The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Pegleg, Gene Buckys and Jackie Schmidt are locking the erector tubes in BR scopes. Gene manufactures a first class external adjustable scope base and ring setup. The erector tube on Leupold and other scopes change POA from time to time because the erector tube will move around. It has a leaf spring to keep pressure on the erector tube, but it doesn't work. If the tube moves .0001" it will be .050-.100" at the target at 100 Yards. You cannot predict when it will happen. Benchrest matches are decided by thousandths of an inch. You would never notice this on a hunting rifle probably. A new scope has entered the arena called a March. It is about $2500, but the initial reviews are very good. Butch | |||
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These articles were written in 2006: http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/ http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/ http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/
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Thanks Butch! Does the Akerman (sp?) and Seibert mods work as well as freezing the tube? The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Pegleg, I don't know for sure what you are asking. I've had Seibert boosted scopes and crosshair replacements by him. I think that is what Bill does also. Locking the internals shouldn't affect those mods and your parallex adjustments are not affected. I have photos if you are interested. Send me an email address to papawlambert@starband.net Butch | |||
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tnekkcc, Thanks for the links. I've never looked at it from the point of the long range shooter/practicality/options/etc. The experts have spoken and I stand corrected. | |||
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