This the one I want S&B.
Meopta plausible
Victory
Is the Schmidty the King of the Hill?

If you're willing to plunk down S&B type money, look straight to the meopta R2 line. There are none brighter anywhere, by anybody. The #4 reticle with the red illuminated dot is a killer setup for way less money.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
If you're willing to plunk down S&B type money, look straight to the meopta R2 line. There are none brighter anywhere, by anybody. The #4 reticle with the red illuminated dot is a killer setup for way less money.

Thank you!

If the Schmidty is in fact King of the Hill, it must have improved a lot in the past 40 years. The old ones I've got have various faults like distortions in the picture, a wrong angle on the eyepiece in relation to the eye relief and a jammed adjustment turret. The Zeiss/Hensoldt models, on the other hand, still seem excellent in every regard.

In the modern field, I would say the Zeiss Victory 1.5-6 HT is my favorite, esp. for its excellent field blending. The only newer S&Bs I've seen were several years old but had the common tunnel vision that comes from image-movement and thick rubber eyepieces.

S&B is absolutely the best low light scope I have ever looked through.

All these current high end optics will easily allow you to shoot past what is legal in the USA in a hunting situation (exception of varmint hunting at night).
I did a little test this past fall while whitetail hunting with 4 separate brands of optics. Not all scopes but all had approx. 4MM exit pupils.
1) Zeiss 10X42 FL Binocs
2) Leica 12X50 Ultravid HD Binocs
3) Leupold 15-45X60 Gold Ring HD spotting scope @ 15 X
4) Swar AV 4-12X50 rifle scope set @ 12X

There was practically no difference between any of them at last light. Actually the Leupold spotting scope @15 power had a minimal edge.
They will all allow you to see things way past where you can with the naked eye.
Optics have come a long way and continue to evolve.
I have began to take other things into consideration when like you I have always considered brightness/resolution as a very high priority. Now I look at weight, durability, hydrophobic lens coatings, customer service as well.

EZ

If You are talking on lowlight optics, You should think about Swarovski - nothing gives you such a brilliant and detailed Image on a scope, is reliable and has the best lowlight visibility of a classic scope (not night-Vision!)

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
All these current high end optics will easily allow you to shoot past what is legal in the USA in a hunting situation (exception of varmint hunting at night).
I did a little test this past fall while whitetail hunting with 4 separate brands of optics. Not all scopes but all had approx. 4MM exit pupils.
1) Zeiss 10X42 FL Binocs
2) Leica 12X50 Ultravid HD Binocs
3) Leupold 15-45X60 Gold Ring HD spotting scope @ 15 X
4) Swar AV 4-12X50 rifle scope set @ 12X

There was practically no difference between any of them at last light. Actually the Leupold spotting scope @15 power had a minimal edge.
They will all allow you to see things way past where you can with the naked eye.
Optics have come a long way and continue to evolve.
I have began to take other things into consideration when like you I have always considered brightness/resolution as a very high priority. Now I look at weight, durability, hydrophobic lens coatings, customer service as well.

EZ

Top end low light performance requires inhancement of the blue light spectrum. I have personally tried every scope that you have listed against S&B and the S&B came out on top.

Swarovski and Kahles, bar None!

8 x 56, or ( more lenses ) 3 - 12 x 56.

I personally use x 42, with less magnification in the dark, others swear by x 50 scopes.

Anyway: use them at the magnification which gives you a 6 to 7 mm ext pupil.

Hermann

Quite some years ago I looked through a S&B scope and was amazed. Not long after that I looked through the same model at a different place and was not that impressed. This was +20 years ago but it did not appear to me at the time that there was consistency in their product.
I have never owned a S&B and most of their products are on the heavy side and I tote my guns around quite a bit so have not gone down that path.
I hear they are exceptional optics.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
All these current high end optics will easily allow you to shoot past what is legal in the USA in a hunting situation (exception of varmint hunting at night).
I did a little test this past fall while whitetail hunting with 4 separate brands of optics. Not all scopes but all had approx. 4MM exit pupils.
1) Zeiss 10X42 FL Binocs
2) Leica 12X50 Ultravid HD Binocs
3) Leupold 15-45X60 Gold Ring HD spotting scope @ 15 X
4) Swar AV 4-12X50 rifle scope set @ 12X

There was practically no difference between any of them at last light. Actually the Leupold spotting scope @15 power had a minimal edge.
They will all allow you to see things way past where you can with the naked eye.
Optics have come a long way and continue to evolve.
I have began to take other things into consideration when like you I have always considered brightness/resolution as a very high priority. Now I look at weight, durability, hydrophobic lens coatings, customer service as well.

EZ

Top end low light performance requires inhancement of the blue light spectrum. I have personally tried every scope that you have listed against S&B and the S&B came out on top.

S&B needs to be used to be fully appreciated. I own 8 of them and they are all exceptional, quality control is extraordinary and they are proactive on any potential problems.

My 3-12X50 S&B Zenith gets it done for me. I"ve heard a lot of folks prefer the straight 6X42 Klassik too.

I have Zeiss, Swarovski and S&B scopes. To my eyes the Zeiss Victory scope is the brightest. I switched from Swarovski binoculars to Zeiss for this reason. Again I repeat "for my eyes". I have a friend that insists the Swarovskis are brightest and another S&B fan. Makes for some spirited discussions.
Before you spend a bundle on the Zenith make sure you have a mount system for your gun. It is very short tubed with the 56MM and may not work with two piece mounts on a magnum length action unless extension rings are used.
Check out the demo list for Camera Land. Good prices on some of the scopes you are considering!

I use a Zeiss Victory HT 3-12x56 with an illuminated reticle. So good that I sold my Swarovski's and in my opinion the best night hunting scope in the world at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
If you're willing to plunk down S&B type money, look straight to the meopta R2 line. There are none brighter anywhere, by anybody. The #4 reticle with the red illuminated dot is a killer setup for way less money.

Have a R1 3-12x56 incredible in the dark just incredible why would anyone spend 2x the price for a german brand. Crazy

Most low power scopes gather light well enough for big game hunting. My favorite is the 3X Leupold, its worked when the guy sitting next to me with high dollar optics couldn't take the shot, so I lent them my rifle. Created a lot of conversation around the campfire those evenings after the Sundowners took effect!

I've got a Hensoldt 6-24x72 on my REPR for hog hunting. That scope is the best passive night vision available; to beat it you'd need one of the enhanced devices that use electronics to enhance the image. I've owned and used 5 S&B 5-25x56's, several Swarovskis, a half dozen high-end Zeiss sporting scopes and while close, the 72 mm objective on my Hensoldt allows more light through, thus I can turn the magnification up to 10X and still have an exit pupil of 7.2mm.

Many Germans are using the VICTORY HT 2.5–10x50mm scope in low light conditions according to a Zeiss official that attended our HUNTEX show and he was of the opinion that you need nothing more, and also that it is the most popular scope of Zeiss, as it is all round hunting scope. Night shooting is also rather close and at 5x magnification you have an exit pupil of 10 mm, more than what your eye can utilise - and at 7x magnification you get a 7mm light stream of light hitting your eye. You just don't need more. The quality of the lenses and superior coatings are even more important in terms of brightness.

Pieter

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
This the one I want S&B.
Meopta plausible
Victory
Is the Schmidty the King of the Hill?

IMHO and experience S&B is the best low light scope period. I have Ziess, Meopta and U. S. Optics and they are bright and clear but take a back seat to S&B in low light.

German scopes cost a lot more than US scopes such as the Leupold range.
In the end it becomes a trade-off between value for money and beter lenses.

Prices off the Europtic website:

Schmidt Bender Classic 3-12x42 A7 Scope @ $1,949
Schmidt Bender Zenith 3-12x50 A7 Scope @ $2,189
Swarovski Z6i 2-12x50 BT 4W-I @ $3,299

Prices off the Leupold website:

VX-2 4-12x40 mm Scope @ $499
VX-3 4.5-14x40 mm Scope @ $689
VX-3 4.5-14x50 mm (30mm) Side Focus Scope @ $999
VX-6 2-12x42 mm CDS Illuminated Reticle Scope @ $1,374

Pieter

It is human nature to believe in the superiority of an item if we individually have an investment in it. That investment can be emotional, temporal, or monetary. Our perception of just how superior it is tends to be proportional to our level of investment. European optics require a great deal of investment, and therefore command a proportional belief in their superiority from their owners.

Assessments from non-invested persons tend to find less difference in such optic from those of lesser cost.

If you seat 10 different people down and give them 10 different scopes or bino`s they will different opinions on what is best.Everyones eyes are not the same and will see things differently.The only way to know what is best for you is to try out different brands.I have Meopta,Minox and Leupold spotting scopes and they are all good for me.For Bino`s I have Zeiss and Swarovski.I can tell you one thing for sure.Swarovski customer service is the best I have ever had.I always check them first when looking at Optics.JMHO,OB

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
It is human nature to believe in the superiority of an item if we individually have an investment in it. That investment can be emotional, temporal, or monetary. Our perception of just how superior it is tends to be proportional to our level of investment. European optics require a great deal of investment, and therefore command a proportional belief in their superiority from their owners.

Assessments from non-invested persons tend to find less difference in such optic from those of lesser cost.

I could not agree more.

I've had the luxury to host many hunter over the past 13 years. Several of them have shown up with S&B's mounted. We always take our rifle with us as a back up and it wore a VXII for a while, and now a VX3. When hunting big mule deer bucks, there has never been a time when you could shoot a buck with the S&B that you couldn't also shoot with the Leupy, including last legal shooting light. Are the Leupy's optically as good, no, but they're plenty good enough. The Meopta, Monarch 3, and Conquest are too. I used to think I needed a high $$$ Euro to kill stuff, but experience has proven that theory wrong, at least to me.

I've also found it very interesting that out of these 120 or so hunters, probably 75% of them show up with a Swaro binocular of some sort, and Leupold scope. Most of them have the means to buy whatever they want.

JG,

Quit being rational. You take all the fun out of this pointless exercise.

Hey there 'dood. Good to "see" ya!

For those of us Europeeans doing quite a lot of our deer hunting during (legal) night hours, it is always amusing when Americans are making statements about optics for low light/night hunting.

Usually it boils down that Leupold is just as good as any top class Europeean Scope.

If I was a rich man, I would love to invite a couple of the most anti-European Scope bashers to sit with me on a starry night over frozen hay fields waiting to nail the right Red deer buck we had on qouta.
That would perhaps be an eye opner?

There is a reason for the high end European Scopes, and that is the way we hunt at night and in low light.
Only top quality optics do the job under such circumstances.

What is best?
Well the concensus put Carl Zeiss and Swarowski on top, followed by S&B, Meopta, Leica Magnus, Docter.....

Deer hunting cost a bit of money, Licenses are issued on spesific animals (bucks, does, pricets, calfs) and to shoot the right kind of animal are paramount.

I guess we put a little different meaning in low light hunting, depending on wich side of the pond we live on.
Where I live and hunt, only top class optics are ineresting for low light/night hunting.

On the other hand, hunting moose at day time, I have used Leupold VX III for years with exellent results, but thats another story.

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:
For those of us Europeeans doing quite a lot of our deer hunting during (legal) night hours, it is always amusing when Americans are making statements about optics for low light/night hunting.

Usually it boils down that Leupold is just as good as any top class Europeean Scope.

Who said that? The VX6 will give anything a run for its money though, at any price.

I have compared them in low light and to my eyes S&B stands on top of the heap.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:
For those of us Europeeans doing quite a lot of our deer hunting during (legal) night hours, it is always amusing when Americans are making statements about optics for low light/night hunting.

Usually it boils down that Leupold is just as good as any top class Europeean Scope.

Who said that? The VX6 will give anything a run for its money though, at any price.

Well, Atkinson just said it a bit up this thread...and I have seen it many other times here on AR.

Wich Scope is "best"?
I think wery few of us have such an experince with that amount of scopes that we can make such a statement.

But looking trough tests taken by the biggest hunting Magazines in Norway and Sweden lately, they sort of sums up the following (and these writers are hunters with houndreds of hours in the Fields each season):

Zeiss Victory HT 3-12x56 get full score togehter with Swarovski Z6i 2,5-.15x56, with Kahles Helia 3-12x56 and Leica Magnus 2,4-16x56 breathing down their neck.

Nightforce NXS 5,5-22x56, Meopta Meostar R1R 3-12x56 are next on the rating.
S&B Stratos 2,5-13x56, Steiner Nighthunter Extreme3-15x53 and Docter Unipoint3-12x56 follow behind.

These are tests from this year, but new models with better technical performance pops up all the time.
Anyway, all the mentioned scopes are top quality and will give the owner the edge during low light/night hunting.

Not even the guys doing these tests did state that one spesfic scope are "the best", bar none.
Some had better field of wiew, other had slightly better contrast, other was on the heavy side, there was differencees in wich way they hade solved the red dot...etc etc...

But the consensus all factors taken into consideration was the listing mentioned above.

I am very happy with my 8 year old Zeiss Victory 3-12x56, but I would not say it is the "best" as improvements are continously brought to the marked

Arlid:

The night hunting you describe is an extremely specialized use of an optical gunsight. It is done from a fixed position with an opportunity to rest the rifle. Under such conditions the primary quality need in the scope is extremely good low-light performance, which is enhanced by outsized objective lenses and relatively high magnification (an 8x56mm being typical).

HOWEVER, for most any other style of hunting (meaning no more than a half-hour prior or past the time the sun is above the horizon), where the shots may be at game at various distances and taken from varying positions, sometimes at moving game, and usually after carrying the rifle for some distance, the bulky European- style scopes (regardless of where they might be made), are greatly disadvantageous. Not only is their bulk problematic and the inability to mount them low enough for the cheek to rest appropriately on the stock comb, but they tend to have exceedingly critical eye relief and eye placement, making it difficult to rapidly acquire the sight picture.

The reason that many of us tend to use exclusively Leupolds is that their scopes typically combine the qualities most important in an optical gunsight: They have excellent optical resolution, even if some very expensive brands may be marginally better; they are relatively light weight and compact, making them much more portable and able to be mounted low over the bore; they are perfectly sealed from moisture so that they never fog; they have very long and wide windows of eye relief and lateral placement so that the sight picture is quickly acquired, and as importantly, so that the sight picture is available in a variety of shooting positions -- even the necessarily awkward ones a hunter sometimes finds himself in when he has no control over how he is situated when the shot presents itself.

If all you need from a scope is to provide a visible image in very low light and you have the luxury of a fixed position and ample time for sighting and firing, then your scope can weigh a kilo, be half a meter long, sit a hands-width above the receiver, and require your eye to be within a millimeter of exact placement -- no problem. If your hunting varies from this description, well then, you need a Leupold.

Stonecreek, I see what you mean.

To my excuse, I was triggerd by the alternatives .336 torque listed up, wich is pretty much the same class of scopes we use for low lite hunting...

I`m aware of the differences in the way we hunt, and for my self, I have used Leupold Scopes for many years on my moose rifles, and on rifles taken to Africa.

In my younger days with kids and mortage on both house and car, my low lite scope was a fixed Leupold M8, 6x42 a scope I still have and use on my Ruger M77/22

As you say, the way we Europeeans do our low lite hunting, differs quite a bit from what the TS obivously ment, so I rest my case.

By the way, this is my low lite rig, a Kimber Classic in 30-06 With Zeiss Victory 3-12x56, and my favorite moose rifle, a Ruger M77 MKII in 338 Winmag With a Leupold VX 3 1,5-5x20.





Exept from a shotgun made in Hungary and a Glock M17, all the guns in my cabinet are American made, but Scopes are European exept the two Leupolds

I agree that premium optics, especially 30mm tubes, best in low light.

However, what conditions and animals are you shooting in? I've found that even with premium optics in the lowest of light that there still isn't enough light to absolutely judge an animal's age, antlers or horns unless it's a known animal to you and can tell instantly it is the correct one. In fact, I've never had any issues with any optics within legal shooting hours in Texas judging animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I agree that premium optics, especially 30mm tubes, best in low light.

Contrary to popular myth, the size of the maintube has nothing to do with the light "gathering", transmission, or relative brightness of the sight picture. It only has to do with how much internal reticle adjustment can be made available.

Arlid,

Those are very nice rigs! I see that you have mounted the big 56mm scope as low as possible and I must admit that it makes a more compact package than I would have thought.

Nice background scenery, by the way. Is this at your home?

Thank you Stonecreek
High Tally 30 mm rings, clearance is only 6 mm.

Yes those Pictures are taken at the front of my house.
A small community close to the sea, and with the main inshore shipping lane up front.
Pine, Spruce,Birch and Rowan woods around and a few diary farms

quote:

However, what conditions and animals are you shooting in? I've found that even with premium optics in the lowest of light that there still isn't enough light to absolutely judge an animal's age, antlers or horns unless it's a known animal to you and can tell instantly it is the correct one. In fact, I've never had any issues with any optics within legal shooting hours in Texas judging animals.

Was the question to me Austin Hunter?

If so, we usually hunt at night on grass fields, or later in the fall over frosty or snow covered fields.
Bright stars or moonlight is a must.

We use high quality binoculars to identify the game, before taking the shot.
Usually only freestanding deer and broadside shots.
My binos are Zeiss Victory 10x56.
Much to heavy for stalking, but exellent from high seats or ground blinds.

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:

quote:

However, what conditions and animals are you shooting in? I've found that even with premium optics in the lowest of light that there still isn't enough light to absolutely judge an animal's age, antlers or horns unless it's a known animal to you and can tell instantly it is the correct one. In fact, I've never had any issues with any optics within legal shooting hours in Texas judging animals.

Was the question to me Austin Hunter?

If so, we usually hunt at night on grass fields, or later in the fall over frosty or snow covered fields.
Bright stars or moonlight is a must.

We use high quality binoculars to identify the game, before taking the shot.
Usually only freestanding deer and broadside shots.
My binos are Zeiss Victory 10x56.
Much to heavy for stalking, but exellent from high seats or ground blinds.

Well, you'd definitely need some good low light performance!

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I agree that premium optics, especially 30mm tubes, best in low light.

Contrary to popular myth, the size of the maintube has nothing to do with the light "gathering", transmission, or relative brightness of the sight picture. It only has to do with how much internal reticle adjustment can be made available.

Most people have difficulty in accepting it when they are told.
The most important aspect is the quality of coatings to minimize reflections.
Also, every lense reflect light by a certain percentage on both sides.
This is why the Zeiss 6x42 mm fixed scope is so clear - less lenses and superior coatings.
And it features a constant 7mm exit pupil (42/6 = 7).
7mm is the maximum that the eye can utilize at night time and 3mm in broad daylight.

Pieter

jwp475,

Have you ever looked through a Hensoldt 6-24x72?

quote:

Originally posted by Magnumdood:
jwp475,

Have you ever looked through a Hensoldt 6-24x72?

Nope nor have I used any rifle scopes with 72mm objectives. I have top end Ziess, U.S. optics, Meopta and S&B I have also compared them to leupolds although not every leupold and I find that in good light there are a few that compare favorably with S&B but fall behind in low light, which is what the OP asked.