The USMC is finally going to retire their tried and trusted Unertl 10x scopes.

Their new scopes will be the Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50mm with Dick Thomas’ lighted Gen II 1st focal plane, mil dot reticles.

Premier has the contact to provide all the scopes with the reticles installed.

Hey Rick, Ya know I would like to have one of
those Unertl's just for old times sake. Do you have any experence with the Schmidt & Bender?
Gene.

quote:

Originally posted by invader66:
Hey Rick, Ya know I would like to have one of
those Unertl's just for old times sake. Do you have any experence with the Schmidt & Bender?
Gene.

Gene,

I have a Unertl 10x USMC scope. The ones they sold commercially are called the 10x tactical and are not marked USMC...but otherwise are the exact same scope. Simplest, most rugged scope you will ever use.

From what my contacts have told me the Corps wanted to go to a variable because they felt it would be better suited to Urban type environments like they are finding in Iraq. It also has something to do with the age of the people now in decision making positions. Variable powered scopes are the “new-rage“ and a newer generation is naturally going to be somewhat influenced by that.

I would bet that the Unertl’s ain’t going to get put too far away.

Never shot a Schmidt and Bender but have heard lots of good things about them. I know that all the major companies were biding and submitting test scopes to Quantico.

quote:

Schmidt and Bender

WOW!!! Very cool stuff!

Wow, is right. An excellent optic. But it weighs 29 ounces. H-E-A-V-Y!

quote:

Originally posted by Esldude:
Wow, is right. An excellent optic. But it weighs 29 ounces. H-E-A-V-Y!

Extra rations for the Marines...
Don

quote:

Originally posted by Esldude:
Wow, is right. An excellent optic. But it weighs 29 ounces. H-E-A-V-Y!

That’s a weight SAVINGS... The Unertl weighs 2 ½ pounds.

Hi Guys, i'm new on accurate reloading, but you might know me from sniper country or long range hunting.
I have lets say an inside picture on the Marine Corps sniper scope contract, i've done a fair lot of co-operation with S&B, the Marines are getting the 3-12x50PMII with illuminated gen 2 ret and Premier are working with S&B on this. The words from the horses mouth at the Marine Corps was " We wanted not just the best sniper scope for a certain price, but the best sniper scope, period" The PMIIs are a rock solid top performing piece of optical excellence. I've had a 3-12x50PMII for years, Ive a 4-16x50PMII also and ive what i believe is the only variant in civilian hands yet of the new 4-16x42PMII, a scope that has been built on a concept for an ultimate sniper rifle scope that i submitted to S&B. I'm currently working closely with technicians at S&B looking at the introduction of custom reticles and thinner retciles for use in F Class and other target shooting disciplins, a dedicated MOA reticle in a 1/4MOA adjustable scope and a few other things. The only thing standing in the way is convincing the Market Research team that there is a market for what we are proposing.
Best Regards Pete

Hey, Pete...welcome aboard!

Dick Thomas told me that the first scopes will be shipping to Quantico next month.

Thanks Rick. I saw Chris Thomas on monday, had an interesting evening in the company of Prem ret, S&B and the USMC. great scopes, i won't use anything else.
Pete

Pete,

I have been a customer of the Thomas’ for about 15 or so years...and they are two of the nicest and most knowledgeable people when it comes to anything optical that I have ever met.

Many times over the years when asking Dick questions on the phone about scopes I could almost see him rolling his eyes and shaking his head at my “ignorance†of a topic that is second nature to him. Despite my many stupid questions he has never failed to give me answers in a way that even I could understand them.

I have no doubt the S&B’s are fine scopes, but I think I’ll stick with my Unertl’s just the same.

Well now isn't that special? Lets just hope some worker at S&B isn't a Muslim (very likely) or a Green or a New Left party member that will try to sabotage the scopes! This is as bad as the Stryker APC being made in Canada and the new Presidental helocopters being made in Italy! These contracts are going out to our "allies" to try to woo them over to what a great idea it was to invade Iraq. Or in the case of the helocopter to pay off the support of Italy. Well their fancy schmancy riflescopes are too little to late. Iraq is a lost cause and everyone but Bush and Rummy know it. I wonder where the next USMC jet fighter/bomber is going to be made? China? Wouldn't suprise me. A big thumbs down the USMC for this stupid deal, Carlos Hathcock must be turning over in his grave. FNMauser

fnmauser,

Pardner, you need to learn to come out of your shell and tell people how you really feel about things!

Hi Rick, yep i've known Dick via email for a few years too, usualy meet up with Chris at the IWA and consider him a friend, both have a good sense of humour. I can't realy comment on the Unertl scopes, only time i've played with em was a little "cross training" a couple years ago, i had a 3 power WWII vintage No 32 and a 6x42 S&B and Kahles and a 10x42 Hensold to compare it to at the time, i bought a 3-12x50PMII before or around the time they became general issue on the AI. I've never bought another brand of scope since. The PMII's are great. Pete

Pete,

I own several Unertl scopes, and one of them is a 10x tactical, the exact same scope that the S&B’s will be replacing. That scope, as you probably know, was designed and built from the ground up to be a sniper scope to sit atop a particular rifle, shooting a particular load... and the men who drafted the requirements and specs were combat snipers, not logistics or purchasing pogues. I am also aware of the incredible advances that have been made in variable scopes since the Unertl was designed and built in the 1970’s.

This is in no way meant as a slight against the S&B scopes as I have no doubt that they were the best available variable scope out there, or the Corps would not have picked them. I am also comfortable that Dick Thomas will not be the least bit shy in informing the Corps if he finds any faults in those scopes at all...and if there are any I will guarantee you he WILL find them!

I think it is going to be very interesting to see how much the lower magnifications are actually used by the snipers in Iraq...and I can’t believe for a second that those scopes will ever be taken off 12x in Afghanistan or when used on the M82 .50’s in either theater.

Can you tell that variable scopes are not real high on my “gotta have one†list?

Mr FNMauser,strange comments from a guy with a Belgian/German handle? for your information the USMC deal is with a joint venture Prem Ret and S&B. Interest by the US military in S&B scopes goes further back than the invasion of Iraq. I take offence at the obviouse fact that you want to tar all us "so called Europeans" with the same brush, but let me tell you sir, some of us over here certainly seem to support your President and your Armed Forces more than you do and that would include me and the guys and gals at S&B, plus a fair number of other like minded folks, Let me tell you Sir, from the point of view of some one who has served his country, served it carrying and using an inferior British Made Sniper Scope, that the troops who go into harms way deserve nothing but the very very best equipment, and i don't give a damn if its made in the USA, the UK in Germany or on the Moon, If my country can't produce the cutting edge equipment that i'm looking for and another friendly nation can, and they can do it in a joint venture with a US company who have been making and delivering sights and other kit to the US military for over a half a century and believe me the S&B PMII Scopes combined with Prem Rets reticle experience are the best cutting edge rifle scope on the market, then I,the USMC Snipers and i'm Damn sure Carlos Hathcock are damned please and applaud Dick and Chris Thomas for having the brains to clinch this deal, The USMC for having procurement officers who far from bieng pen pushers, come from a teeth arms background and know what the job entails and what equipment is required, S&B for having the technological ability to produce the worlds finest sniper scope and i aplaud my self for planting the seeds and providing military sniping and special operations technical experties combined with civilain target and hunting experience over the last 10+ years that grew into this deal.And my input has been free of charge all the way along.
The Men and Women of our combined Armed Forces deserve the best that we can supply them, with. I fully support the Sniper Community of the USA and the UK and if I was still serving and was supplied with a Leupold or a NXS of a 1970's technology scope, then i would know damn well the logistics cheap skate pen pusher budget watchers had stabbed me in the back from the safe distance of thier desks in air conditioned offices once again.
A wise leader give the troops the kit they need to do the job to the best of thier ability and then gets out of the way and lets them get on and do it.Far far to often have i seen back hander contracts handed out to friends of a friend of a politician. Take the L85A1-L86A1 SA 80 weapons system for example, we Brits wanted to keep our SLR L1A1 versions of the FN Fal or go to a US built M16 variant. I think that certain branches of the top brass have realised this jobs for the boys and back hander approach to supplying the troops with inferior kit just won't cut it any more and i see the S&B contract as a step in the right direction.
Yours Sincerely.
Pete Lincoln

Rick, you have to appreciate the fact that our boys are operating in terrain that is very varying, one day its open desert, the next its MOUT type environments, the guys need the flexibility of the variable scope, 12x or 10x magnification is a definate disadvantage in urban terrain. The variable magnification of the 1st focal plain S&B scopes gives you the ability to operate in close or out far, you can range with the reticle on any power setting and the scopes are totaly reliable. They will be a big imporvement over the Unertl, believe me. Pete

Pete,

Yes I am aware of all of that...my son is in Iraq and he has my Leupold 3.5-10x scope with one of the Gen II 1st focal plane mil dot reticles with him as well as my Leupold 12-45 spotting scope with the same reticle. I bought that scope and spotter right after Dick came up with the Gen II reticle have used both of them allot.

The combat reliability of the S&B scopes in a variety of theater’s and real combat situations and conditions has yet to be proven. I’m not saying they won’t stand up to actual field use and abuse...but only time will give us that answer, and that hasn’t happened yet.

As I stated, I think it is going to be very interesting to see how much that power ring actually gets used by the troops in the heat of combat...as opposed to the training ranges back home where misses don’t really have much effect on the sequences of you and your buddies birthdays.

I was serving in the Marine Corps in combat when the M16 rifle was first issued to us and I can very clearly recall all of the fantastic claims of superior this and superior that, and all of the “field tests†the rifle had supposedly passed with flying colors...and we quickly learned how accurate that information was, now didn’t we?

I wasn’t in the service at the time, but I also vividly recall all of the praises and claims of “superiority†for the M855 “Green Tip†ammunition when it first came out. How many of our young warriors have needlessly died because of that crap?

When I start hearing 1st hand, combat related instances where Marine snipers relate how these new scopes allowed them to take out bad guys that they could not have gotten with the Unertl’s then I will be the first one to sing that scopes praises. But until that happens I am going to remain skeptical.

Just the philosophy of an old and scarred up Grunt!

Interesting thread. Congrats to S&B for the USMC contract, though I wish US Optics could have gotten it.

Rick, the combat reliability of the S&B PMII scopes is bieng proven daily by British and several other Nations Snipers who have had the 3-12x50PMII on top of thier AI Sniper rifles for quite a while now, i'm in contact with a fair few Brit Snipers ( living as i do right in the middle of the 4th Armoured Brigade) and i can assure you, they are suitably impressed with thier PMII scopes.
With regards to the power ring, its usage depends on the own initiative of the guy using it and on the training in the use of the scope. The mistrust of variable scopes that is present in many conservative thinking shooters must be over come buy the boys using these things, they need to learn that they can trust thier lives to the repeatability and reliability of these scopes. There is no voodoo attached,, these scopes are simple to operate, rock solid and the best that money can buy.

I'm aware of the back handers and fiddles with the intruuduction of the M16 ist variants and the ammo, we had to put up with the same crap with the introduction of the SA80, despite it bieng miserable in performance on anything but a rifle range, and that was known before it was introduced, we still , due to corruption, got the sod.
The S&B USMC contract has occured because the USMC wouldn't settle for anything less. no back handers and dodgey dealing in this one, The scopes where tested out against the USO, NSX and a couple of others. they where the clear winners on every point exept cost.
Thank your son for me for doing his bit, and if he ever gets any where near Rhein Main AFB tell him there is a steak, some beer and a friendly English bloke waiting to say hi. if he wants to go hog hunting that can be arranged too. Tell him to get his hands on a S&B PMII asap and you want to know what he thinks to it. Then let me know.
Pete

I wander why they didn't go with one of the Leupold "tactical" models?



Terry

Pete,

I will tell my son to take you up on that. He was stationed in Germany in 1989-90.

You are misunderstanding my meaning about the “power ring.†Variable scopes have been reliable for allot of years now, that’s not what I’m talking about. What I am referring to are the inherent problems associated with introducing a radically different piece of equipment to troops involved in daily combat. I have experienced that first hand and have personally witnessed the tragic results it can produce. Combat requires you to act instinctively, and that is really difficult to do with new equipment that you have to “think†about. It makes little difference how good the equipment is if the person using it is having to do OJT with it while getting shot at.

I also have a huge amount of experience with what happens when you give young soldiers and marines a piece of equipment with lots of knobs and dials and things for them to “play with.†In a training environment that works itself out fairly quickly...in combat you may not have the luxury of waiting for them to grow tried of playing with the new toys.

Like I said...if and when I start hearing US Marine snipers in combat praising this new scope I will join right in with them, because that will mean that they are killing more bad guys and saving other Marines lives.

Rick, where was he based? I spend a fair lot of time in the Darmstadt area.
Gotcha on the xx's ring, well in my experience the Snipers tend to be a better grade of Soldier than an average infantryman and can be relied up on not to fiddle with kit they shouldn't, It takes about 5 minutes to learn to use the PMII scope, its as simple as faling of a log, turrets go the oposite way to the NXS and leupolds, it has a definate zero stop. paralax control is self explanitory, and the illumination control is as simple as a dimmer light switch in any living room. Certainly the reticle illumination will be left on on occasion, that happens to me still too.
The PMII isn't radicaly different, its far easier to use than any leupold of NXS, i can't comment on the Unertl, there is no getting confused as to which turn of the turret you are on,
I know the guys will like it.
The US Army look like getting the PMII also,
our Snipers certainly like the PMII.
The thing to teach em is to stalk and move with the scope on low power, you are ready for any surprises, indeed i often use a PMII on 3 power on driven boar and deer hunts, now i know the deer and boar don't shoot back, but they run quicker than any man can and i can hit em with good regularity, for the longer shots you have time to wind the x's up, and if you don't you can still range and shoot out to a good distance with the lowest setting.
Another interesting way of aiming with these scopes is to wind the reticle illim right up, close the butler creek cap, shoot at close movers with both eyes open, left eye on target right eye in scope, the illuminated reticle is super imposed on the target and it makes for darn quick target aquisition.
The lower magnification combinde with the 50mm obj gives you a good field of view and eliminated the high mag tunnel vision which can prove problematic in urban areas.
the Marines will love the thing, and it means i can have an authentic M40 clone without having to change scope brands,
cheers Pete

Pete,

I have no doubt the Marines will eventually fall in love with the new scope...and I am sure it’s a great one, if it wasn’t they wouldn’t have chosen it.

I also know that if it turns out bad the Marines are smart enough to have all those old Unertl’s sitting around at Quantico to put back in service if the need arises. The Marines are famous for keeping their old equipment around just in case.

Interesting side note though...

Did you know that there are individual Marine snipers (using Unertl scopes) that have more confirmed kills in Iraq that the entire sniper contingent in the British Army combined? Ouch...I just couldn’t pass that one up, forgive me!

Rick,Well I was never a body count merchant, but the fact of the matter is that the US Military are operating in far far greater numbers ( approx 20 to 1) in the more hostile areas of the Sand Box, I dare say there are grunts using aimpoints that have chalked up more kills than the average Brit Sniper. Casualty figures among our Snipers, Brit and US compared to enemies killed by our snipers might be an interesting tally.
we are getting morbid by the minute buddy.. !!
Pete

Pete,

You’re way behind the times! EOTECH’s and ACOGS are the hot tickets for the grunts.

I was actually referring to a single Marine sniper (with a Unertl) having more kills than all of the Brit snipers combined...and while true, I was only messing with you to inject a bit of US/Brit competitive humor.

The Marines have had some casualties among snipers but it certainly had nothing to do with their scopes.

Now, I admit that the Marines are working in a far more “target-rich†environment than the Brits are.

Hey, I’ll give you this one...you Brits have best damned socks on the planet!!!! My son was going through a pair of US issue socks a week when he first went over there. I bought him 12 pair of the socks that are issued to the Brits and he hasn’t worn out a single pair yet.

Rick i use aim point as a generalisation for that kind of sight, but there are still plenty of aimpont comp's also floating about. I prefer a scope type sight over a red dot or holo sight, the 1.5-4 PMII CQB sight is nice,
Sniping is a seriouse business mate, and your right about the US patroling a more target rich environment.
Pete

Pete,

Have you tried the EOTECHS? I bought a 552 for my son and played with it a bit before mailing it off to Iraq.

That, IMHO, is the finest, fastest, and user friendly combat sight that has ever been produced. My son LOVES it. It literally allows a rifle to be shouldered and fired like a shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Pete,

Have you tried the EOTECHS? I bought a 552 for my son and played with it a bit before mailing it off to Iraq.

That, IMHO, is the finest, fastest, and user friendly combat sight that has ever been produced. My son LOVES it. It literally allows a rifle to be shouldered and fired like a shotgun.

I've played with one before. Lot's of fun! My life wasn't depending on it so that's all I was really doing with it. I see a lot of them in pictures from over there. Tin cans and bad guy's have much to fear when you have one.

Terry

Rick, i ain't played with one exept mounting a couple. Iv'e a Marlin lever gun coming in soon for a custom mount fabrication that will have one and a 1.5-6x42 S&B, plus some WWG iron sights. I'll try one out.
Pete

S+B is a very fine scope, I know I have two 6 x 42 's one on a 6.5 x 55 and the other on a 300 H+H. The Marines know what they want and they choose S+B one of the best if not the best in scopes. With the nature of the current war, being able to have a good look before shooting, pays off. As for Carlos, he would have loved one of those.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

Interesting side note though...

Did you know that there are individual Marine snipers (using Unertl scopes) that have more confirmed kills in Iraq that the entire sniper contingent in the British Army combined? Ouch...I just couldn’t pass that one up, forgive me!

Rick,


Yeah, all those civilans sure make for easy targets!

Regards,

Pete

pete,

Last time I checked it was the Brits in Basara that had their tit in a ringer for killing civilians...and driving a tank into the Iraqi police station to break the “culprits†out of jail.

The Press might have had their tits in the wringer over that, but not us!

Besides, whats the use of having a "Get Out of Jail Free" card if you're not going to use it???

Hey, Pete...I’m on their side. I thought it was funnier than Hell that they busted down the jail walls with a tank to get their guys out.

The Brits have always had great spirited fighting men...and todays are no different. Well... you guys didn’t do so well back in 1776...but look at who you had to fight against!

Rick
We are getting old. I was issued the Rem 700, 7.62, wood stock and Redfield 3x9. I hope the kids are getting the best. I still use a Redfield 3x9 I bought in 71. It's on a 375H&H now and still a good scope.
Gene

Gene,

I think you’re right!

I see some of the pictures of the guys in Iraq and it looks like they have everything except their mess kit hanging from the Picatinny rails on their rifles, and probably the only reason they don’t have the mess kit on there is I don’t think they issue those any more.

Sort of makes you wonder how we ever managed to shoot and kill bad guys before all these new toys came about.

Yea, We would get like a floor sealer to "waterproof" our stocks from home. Mom went to hardware store and sent it in pints. Scocth in 5th's
I do not think it is called a Mess Hall anymore.
They may have a mess kit on display somewhere for them to see, sitting next to one of us.
Gene

quote:

Originally posted by fnmauser:
Well now isn't that special? Lets just hope some worker at S&B isn't a Muslim (very likely) or a Green or a New Left party member that will try to sabotage the scopes! This is as bad as the Stryker APC being made in Canada and the new Presidental helocopters being made in Italy! These contracts are going out to our "allies" to try to woo them over to what a great idea it was to invade Iraq. Or in the case of the helocopter to pay off the support of Italy. Well their fancy schmancy riflescopes are too little to late. Iraq is a lost cause and everyone but Bush and Rummy know it. I wonder where the next USMC jet fighter/bomber is going to be made? China? Wouldn't suprise me. A big thumbs down the USMC for this stupid deal, Carlos Hathcock must be turning over in his grave. FNMauser

fnmauser,

What is your problem with Canada? and/or the Stryker being built here? You're coming off like a member of the tinfoil hat brigade. Just because our government didn't commit to Iraq, doesn't make us all leftist, muslim, terrorist wannabes! We were boots on the ground in Afghanistan and still are! I lost a good friend over there when some shitbird blew up his Iltis with a bomb. I also know many of the guys from the Princess Pats who were seconded to the 101st Airborne during Op Anaconda, where they proceeded to snipe several dozen shitbird Taliban A-holes, including one at over 2,430 M. You're government thought their service was sufficient to warrant award of the Bronze Star. Many Canadian soldiers worked with US Special Forces, including SEALS, Green Berets, and Delta. They're were treated as equals. Same thing happened in Korea, WWII, WWI, etc... So why shit on America's closest and oldest ally?

As for sniper scopes, the S&B is a great optic. Much more versatile than the Unertl. That's not to disparage the Unertl, as Canadian Snipers were once issued them as well. However, time do change, as does the tactical requirements of war in the 21st Century.

Despite their outstanding performance in Afghanistan, Canadian Snipers are getting new kit in the form of the PGWDTI Timberwold chambered in .338 Lapua. Interestingly enough, the rifle is being built in Canada, however, the stock is a McMillan A-5 thats made in America as is the U.S. Optics SN-3 EREK 3.2-17 Should I be bitching that we aren't using a "Canadian" stock or scope? C'mon guy! We're not the enemy. Change can be good, and as long as the guys in the field have access to the very best equipment they can find, that's all that matters.

http://www.pgwdti.com/





The PGWDTI MRSWS System includes:

-Timberwolf 338 Lapua SWS.
-PGWDTI Titanium sound suppressor.
-US Optics SN-3 EREK 3.2-17.
-Titanium 25 minute Picatinny rail.
-Simrad mount.
-Dual side laser designator mount.
-26" helically fluted barrel. 1-10" 6 groove.
-Titanium side port muzzle brake.
-A5 stock with Titanium Cantilever Monoblock bedding.
-Parts kit, cleaning kit, tool kit.
-Handstop and rail.
-Harris S-BRM bipod.
-Adjustable sling.
-Five 5 round magazines.
-Fitted Pelican 1750 case.
-Drag bag.
-Action cover, suppressor cover.
-Lapua 250 grain Lock Base ammunition.
-Complete training package (user care and technician).
-User and technical manuals.
-A 2 year parts supply.

M1911A1

Welcome Aboard. Might also be noted that Canadian Snipers helped the USMC set up its Sniper School. Couple Marine's went through School up there and some of your boys came down to help. Marines told me of working well with your troops. Some of us know.

That is a nice kit for your snipers,Well planned. The Brits have told me good things about the 338. I have never handled one though will be glad to PM my address .

Oh, Some here also Know what Carlos would want.
Same as Rick and I. The Fucking best for his Marines.