Gents,
I would welcome some opinions re a recommended scope setup for long range sheep hunt.
Currently I am using a Leupold VariX III, I think to maybe 18 power max,dont have access to it at the moment.
I am told to expect shots between 500 to 800y.
Dont want to start any discussions re the advisability for taking these shots.
My questions is what kind of power does one need to shoot reliably at a target zone,rather than at "the animal" and what is needed to identify the best set of horns in a group while doing so.
Too often ,when animals are milling around, the identified target mixes up with others and one needs to re-identify who is who without resorting to look back thru the big target scope.

From a practical view point, I would love to stay with my Leupold to X18,but hate to compromise a 30.000 hunt by not having the optimal rifle scope.
Nightforce scopes to 36 and 42 are in the selection.

Thanks for sharing any experiences.

Just my opinion, but 18x should provide you with plenty of magnification to identify and target sheep at those ranges.

If you already have the scope go out to a known distance range and see for yourself, or just do the math and see how close the 800 yard target will appear to be in your scope at 18x.

My long range set-up was a H-S 30-378 with a Leupold 8.5-25X50 that was sent to Premier Reticle for the mil-dot reticle set up for my vel and bullet weight. The zero was 300 yards for the first dot and then dots all the way out to 1000 yards. As long as I had a top of the line range finder and a rock solid rest, it was good to go to 1000 yards.
This was a heavy set up and most likely would be too heavy for a goat or sheep gun but it gives you an idea of what can be done.
Premier no longer does Leupolds but I think Leupold offers this same type of mil-dot service out of their custom shop.

The Nightforce 3.5X15X50 with the NP-R2 reticle is by far my favorite hunting scope resolution is more important than added power and I have shot The Leupold VXlll's side by side withe the Nightforce and in my opion I'd take the Nightforce in a heart beat.I have Nightforce scopes with more power but I still prefer the 3.5X15 for big game hunting.I have not found any rifle scope to be as effective for identification as top end binoculars and or top spotting scopes.I do unstand the importance of clarity in a rifle scope and for this reason I prefer the Nightforce over the Leupold.

All,
I've shot them with 6x42 fixed and i've shot them with 3-9x42..Leu. and Swaro's..You don't need to lug and heavy scope up a mountain..You need to shoot and shoot.. Know Your round.. Put the money in other places..Trigger, Bedding Etc.. Weight is the enemy of the Mountain Hunter..
AK

I have a park next to my house that is a measured 680 yards long and I went out awhile ago with two Unertl scopes...a 6x and a 4x... and could easily make out the facial features of some people that were a bit over 500 yards away with the 6x. Could see them fine with the 4x also but the facial features weren’t as distinct.

quote:

I am told to expect shots between 500 to 800y.

Having hunted sheep for several years,I would say that you should be more concerned with the outfitter that you have chosen than with your scope choice.If he isn't able to get you much closer than that,I would question his abilities.That being said,my own choice for a scope for sheep hunting is the 3x10x42 swarovski.

quote:

Originally posted by akrange:
All,
I've shot them with 6x42 fixed and i've shot them with 3-9x42..Leu. and Swaro's..You don't need to lug and heavy scope up a mountain..You need to shoot and shoot.. Know Your round.. Put the money in other places..Trigger, Bedding Etc.. Weight is the enemy of the Mountain Hunter..
AK

I agree wieght is an important issue to me.He was asking about 18 power are more so I answered in that direction. I would be happy with a little compact 17 ounce 9.9 inch long 2.5X10 Nightforce are other compact of compaiable optics.

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:

quote:

I am told to expect shots between 500 to 800y.

Having hunted sheep for several years,I would say that you should be more concerned with the outfitter that you have chosen than with your scope choice.If he isn't able to get you much closer than that,I would question his abilities.That being said,my own choice for a scope for sheep hunting is the 3x10x42 swarovski.

Stubblejumper has made a good point here in my opinion. My thinking would be more in the 300 to 400 yard range. My choice would be in a 4.5 X 14 range scope. But I haven't seen the mention of the weapon of choice?

quote:

Stubblejumper has made a good point here in my opinion. My thinking would be more in the 300 to 400 yard range.

Actually according to a very experienced bighorn outfitter that I know,the vast majority of the sheep that his clients kill are shot at less than 300 yards.If you doubt his qualifications,he was hired by one of the people that bought the Alberta ministers bighorn tag for around $400,000.When you spend that much on a tag,you do research and hire a very good outfitter.My first bighorn was taken at 80 yards.and I have passed several legal rams at 200 yards or less.

Any guide that lets somebody he just met take a 500+ yard shot at a bighorn should be banned from the mountains.

First, your outfitter either doesn't know a yard from a decimeter, or he doesn't care. Taking a shot at any big game animal at 800 yards is totally irresponsible in that there's always a very slight chance that you might hit some part of it -- then you're up shit creek.

Second, there's no such thing as a big game animal that you can't see adequately at any reasonable range to shoot at with as little as 4x, although higher magnifications are useful when ranges exceed three hundred yards or so.

Weight and bulk are critical in hunting in difficult terrain. Buy the lightest, most compact (full-sized) 3-9X or similar magification range scope you can find (2x on the bottom end and 10x on the top). Any more magnification will just serve to trick you into thinking that your target is closer than it actually is, which serves you poorly.

By the way, carry your scope with the power set to 4x or so -- you never know when a trophy will jump out from behind a hidden crevice only 40 yards away. If it's at 400 yards, you'll have plenty of time to crank the scope up.

i have to agree with everybody else - 500 yds is no good. I don't think I've ever shot at a ram at much over 200. an old 2.5-8 B&L balvar still sits on my little sheep rife. (in the obsolete 3006 caliber)

SH, get a new nightforce, you pick the power range of it after all your paying for it the higher power NF''S are heavyer than normal scopes,thats no pun i own one myself a benchrest(8x32x56) np-r2,granted i wouldn''t take it sheep hunting but i''m not 18 any more either, jwp475s on the rite track that 3.5x15x50 with the np-r2 would be my choice hands down. shoot a lot at the ranges you''ll in hunting over,lack of experence and wind is your worst enemy have a great hunt,regards 2 all jjmp

I have a Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25X50 that I am looking to sell. PM me if you are interested or want more info. It is basically brand new and has never been mounted.

Sheephunter!

Sounds like your going to get into another cock up hunt if your outfitter wants you to shoot at 500 to 800 yds.

I guess we will read about it here first.

465H&H

Don't mean to sound rude but I'd be EMBARRASSED to show up in camp with any 18 to 20 power scope-but I guess to each his own.

All
The outfitter/guide will be saying..Hmmm..Is this a Hunter or a Astronomer..
AK

Outfitters (and me) frequently judge the experience level of their clients by the size of their scope. Everybody seems to try bigger and bigger when they start out but eventually get back to normal (smaller) scopes.

Hmmm,

Well,

Typically game animals are much harder to put down than the species that seems to do most of the hunting so, I would agree that 1000 yard shots would be difficult and, risky. I would rather retire the day on a game animal than make a poor shot because I was not prepared or did not know the drop tables or windage on this particular load or even the moa capability of my scope and mounts.

Ultimately, It is the shooters responsibility to become familiar with his weapon and his capabilities. Clint Eastwood spoke well when he said "a man's got to know his limitations". This is true, know yours. The more you practice, study, analyze and become familar with your rifle, loads, optics, triggers, etc...the more your shootable distance and conifidence will grow.

I shoot IBS and local competition. Can I hit a target at 1000? Certainly. Would i shoot a deer at that distance? Depends greatly on the situation and the geography, wind, climate, etc...if a flat field standing still, fairly calm, no more than 10 mph wind, and using a barnes x bt 165 or 168 .308 cal, sure.

The Leupold-Nightforce debate will go on for years, the nightforce has a clearer picture from the ones i have shot and, the Leupold seems to be much easier to deal with when it comes to customer issues. Big choice there too...could be 500 dollar difference depending on model. Just make sure you have the 20 moa base OR the scope has at least 80 moa and you will be fine since you only have half that for up on a centered scope from the factory.

Shoot your favorite load at 100. Get a 1 inch group or less...take the fps and load bc and all and put in to these sites:

www.norma.cc/htm_files/javapagee.htm
http://www.mega.nu:8080/traj.html

Then you should try your luck at 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, etc...working till you shoot 1 moa at those ranges...i.e...at 600 you can shoot a 6 inch target regularly. If you do that, game hunting to 600 would be fine if I were your guide. Same for 1000. Shoot a 10 inch target, and we're good with you shooting game that far, even if you shoot in the ring 7 out of 10. Again, my .02 worth is that I will let it go unless the circumstances are optimal for that, not in the mountains and not in high wind or over water, etc...

quote:

Originally posted by osoksniper:
fairly calm, no more than 10 mph wind,Then you should try your luck at 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, etc...working till you shoot 1 moa at those ranges...i.e...at 600 you can shoot a 6 inch target regularly. If you do that, game hunting to 600 would be fine if I were your guide. Same for 1000. Shoot a 10 inch target, and we're good with you shooting game that far, even if you shoot in the ring 7 out of 10.

10 mph wind at 1000 yards is calm?

1 moa at 1000 yards is good enough? Gee, that leaves ZERO error for the wind, as the bullet that hits the extreme outside of the 10 inch group will blown out by any wind estimation error.

I have some land in Colorado at nearly 10000 feet. I shoot at long range all the time there. But I live in Phoenix, where I also shoot long range. You would be stunned by the effect of higher elevation. That alone will be a huge challenge for mountain hunting.

Angles will also be a huge issue at 800 yards. And you just don't hold for the "equivalent horizontal distance" - at long ranges, you need to know the TOF and the angle - in short, a PDA with a ballistics program (pack extra batteries).

Sheephunter, don't take this personally, but the fact you ask such a basic question tells me you have no business taking such a shot. It shows you haven't spent a lot of time shooting at those ranges with different scopes, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by osoksniper:
fairly calm, no more than 10 mph wind,Then you should try your luck at 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, etc...working till you shoot 1 moa at those ranges...i.e...at 600 you can shoot a 6 inch target regularly. If you do that, game hunting to 600 would be fine if I were your guide. Same for 1000. Shoot a 10 inch target, and we're good with you shooting game that far, even if you shoot in the ring 7 out of 10.

10 mph wind at 1000 yards is calm?

1 moa at 1000 yards is good enough? Gee, that leaves ZERO error for the wind, as the bullet that hits the extreme outside of the 10 inch group will blown out by any wind estimation error.

I have some land in Colorado at nearly 10000 feet. I shoot at long range all the time there. But I live in Phoenix, where I also shoot long range. You would be stunned by the effect of higher elevation. That alone will be a huge challenge for mountain hunting.

Angles will also be a huge issue at 800 yards. And you just don't hold for the "equivalent horizontal distance" - at long ranges, you need to know the TOF and the angle - in short, a PDA with a ballistics program (pack extra batteries).

Sheephunter, don't take this personally, but the fact you ask such a basic question tells me you have no business taking such a shot. It shows you haven't spent a lot of time shooting at those ranges with different scopes, etc.

Very well said!

Shooting at a 1,000 yards on a flat, KD range and shooting that far in the mountains at a game animal are not exactly the same thing.

The topic took a predictable turn to enlighten me/us that long range shooting is not for the faint of heart and in the eyes of some "real hunters" "inappropriate".
None of this though is my question.
I was able to get to my long ranger and verified that de facto I have a Leupold VariX III 4.5-14 scope on it
I developed ammo at 250y,target being a 2" diameter circle.The better 3 shot pattern were about 1 MOA which didnt make me very happy
Then it occured to me,that possibly or probably some of thie pattern diameter was due to my inability to target the exact center of that 2" circle. At X14 it turned out too small to repeatedly do so.Maybe I should have had a 1" or even 1/2" target spot.
I had a 1" spot but could never get it into sharp focus to identify its center - part of my old question/problem of being unable to get crosshair and target at distance into sharp focus at the same time , with a scope that doesnt have a seperate paralax adjustment.

Bottom line of my thinking: at least for developing ammo, I need a better scope to truly
be able to discern the best powder/bullet combination.It matters to me whether I have a 1 MOA or a .75 or even 0.5 MOA pattern.
I could do that at 100y,but read that it really needs to be done at 200-300y.

So my thinking goes back to consider a heavier and bigger magnification scope,with all it's shortcomings.

Nothing is set in stone,opinions are always welcome when based on own experience.

Next trip up to MT ,I will attempt to find a 400-500y shot,I am going to the Bitterroot area and that is a formidable task between the trees

FOr the well meaning nay sayers,maybe I should outline the final object:
I am preparing myself and me rifle for a Marco Polo hunt in Tajikistan at 16.000f and up, temp down to -40, lets hope its warmer.
While I would dearly value shots at 300y,most references advise shots at 600-800y to be representative.Probably has to do with the terrain and the fact that many eyes are scanning.I would therefore maybe suggest that Tajikistan at 16,000 f is not the same as Bighorn hunting in NA.I am not critical ,but accept what is being shared with me and prepare myself accordingly.
I will use my new Leica binos with inbuild Laser range finder,then use trajectory tables from Exalibur allowing for angled shots,keeping altitude and temp constant.Wind is another issue to be dealt with.

Angle of slope will be determined by "Angle Cosine Indicator" mounted onto the scope.

All these paraphenelias might actually work but need to be verified here on the range - If I ever find a 800y target with backstop

A 3.5X15X50 Nightforce is what you are looking for I am able to aim precisely at a 1" dot at 300 yards with mine and I am 55 years old so I don't have perfect vision any more. The Resolution of the Nightforce is quite suppior to the Leupold.The Nightforce may not seem to you to be high enough in power,but I can assure you that it will do the job

http://www.nightforceoptics.com/


Check out these 300 yard groups shot useing the 3.5X15X50 Nightforce

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...6&an=0&page=3#108976

I believe you'd be supprised at how many outfitters advocate the taking of 500 plus yard shots. One I've talked to claims he just lets the client dry fire numerous times then when they're ready,he loads the rifle and lets them take the shot. This guys got a website full of 160 and 170 class rams. They set up with varmint weight rifles and wait for a shot.

The ability to open up on sheep at 500 plus yards takes alot of effort out of hunting. I'm sure it opens up alot wounding also. But when you're guiding people that are out of shape with limited hunting skills,you're better off opening up on them at long range.Before the client has the time to alert every animal in a half mile radius.

I've shot 6 rams in Alberta now and have not shot one or needed to shoot over 400 yards. If you need to shoot more than that there is something going on.

Sheephunter:

If you have to travel that far to practice a 500 yard shot (which is WAY easier BTW than an 800 yarder) you are really kidding yourself. If you want to be a good long range shot, move somewhere you can shoot at those ranges (and at those altitudes).

Finally, I would like to point out the best group I ever shot at at 200 yards from a sitting position with a sling was with a .308 and a 6X scope - it was a 3/8 inch 3 shot group. You are kidding yourself if you think a higher power scope will shrink your groups considerably.

Thanks for all points,I basically agree but like to be prepared for what I am told.
It doesnt hurt to prepare for 600-800y shots and stay at 400-500y
Myself ,I have been pressured hard to take a 400+y shot with a 30/06 by a reputable sheep outfitter.
I steadfast refused and got the man angry and abusive.
I shot the ram finally at 320y or so,I know I would have missed the 400y shot, simply never tried for it before and knew my trajectory.

I think I found a stupid oversight on my part
I re discovered the front objective adjustment ring on the scope.Consequently I will now have a sharper target picture and crosshair. :>
Inability to target the precise same spot on paper makes discovery of obtained shot pattern kind of difficult below 1 MOA.

I am dry firing on a 3mm dot from a bipod,trying to keep the movement to 1-2 mm,in a week or two I can then again shoot for real at distances.
My current sheephunt broker also tells me that 500y should be fine as max which is why I chose him over 2 others that quoted 600-800+ y.
I feel now confident I can get there with my current Leupold 14 scope,but will see.
Much rather spend the money on hunting then ever new equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Sheephunter:

If you have to travel that far to practice a 500 yard shot (which is WAY easier BTW than an 800 yarder) you are really kidding yourself. If you want to be a good long range shot, move somewhere you can shoot at those ranges (and at those altitudes).

Finally, I would like to point out the best group I ever shot at at 200 yards from a sitting position with a sling was with a .308 and a 6X scope - it was a 3/8 inch 3 shot group. You are kidding yourself if you think a higher power scope will shrink your groups considerably.

Long range shooting requires,lots of long range practice to be proficent.The range is not the only determining factor in decideing take a shot or to pass.Practice though is esentual

Hello Sheephunter,
Only read part of the responses, but can tell you from personal experience that shooting at game some 700 plus yards is not for one who is unpracticed at long range shooting. Perhaps you are skilled at long range shooting and need say no more, but if not, be advised that such a shot at game is not an easy thing to accomplish. The elevation is the easy part, can provide pretty simple method of cranking on the elevation, but it is the wind and drift that is a game only for the experienced. Estimate/guesstimate of wind speed, direction once done then requires the shooter to dial in the windage accordingly. Again if you are experienced at such shooting, go for it.

As for preferred optics, suggest either the Leupold Mk4M1 16x fixed power scope or one of the US Optics similar power ones. More than that magnification will only require that you be rock steady and little heart beat, not normal if scared to death or completely out of breath and panting for air, plus the mirage pick up even in colder climates w/ any sunshine on the earth will hamper your shot. Mirage not only blurrs your vision, but will trick you into thinking the target is more to one side or the other-optical illusion. Mirage visible and suddenly goes away, well,wind speed probably just went over the 10mph rate and hold up , don't shoot and wait for calmer conditons or be willing to crank the wind drum and know what you are doing. At mountain elevations, wind speeds are often quite a ways up there. For 30 grand, that guide had better get me a whole lot closer than 700 yards for believe he will just say that the client could not shoot and missed the shot and not his fault. Wrong!

Good Luck

That is the silliest thing I have ever heard, 400-800 yards? If you cant get inside 300 yards on a ram theres something wrong! I shot my dall ram at 25 yards with a bow! This is still called hunting right, and ethically if you arent training in a sniper training school shooting at a majestic creature like any of the mountain sheep in North America at 400-800 yards is a jackass move! Wounding one of these awesome critters would make me want to throw up. I would definately question any outfitter/guide that advised me to take shots like that, unheard of for most hunters!!

Here's the rifle and scope needed for long range shooting on this site http://www.usoptics.com .Saw some at the SHOT show

I’m not sure why some people keep believing the garbage put out by US Optics concerning their products.

US Optics HAS NEVER built scopes for the US Marine Corps Sniper rifles, and the scope shown IS NOT the only scope made for the M40 sniper rifles and the M118LR ammunition.

US Optics had a contract for a very short period of time “servicing†the Marine Corps Unertl scopes after John Unertl died and his company was sold.

The Corps has recently switched from the fixed 10x power Unertl scopes to a S&B (not a US Optics) variable scope for their sniper rifles.

US Optics might make good scopes, but their advertising claims are TOTAL BS, and that makes me wonder what other lies they are telling about their products.