I have a Kimber Montana 7mm08 that has had a Leupold VX3 2.5-8X scope for 18 years. My go to deer rifle.

It shot great for years - taken deer & wallabies out to 350+ meters. Grouped 5 inches at 400 meters club shoot.

All my groups are 5 shot. I get under 1 inch with many bullets and loads. Some are even 0.5 inch. All my loads are 2600 fps to 2830 fps. Not max or hot loads. I had not adjusted the scope for at least 10 years. Just left it as it was, put it away in the cupboard and took it hunting or to the club. It never let me down.

Here is what I did recently. I took the scope off to send the rifle for threading to put on a suppressor. Then I changed my mind and decided that I did not want a suppressor on this rifle. I had stuck a couple of bits of paper on the scope in front and behind the two rings to index the scope for reinstallation. I checked all the scope screws with a torque wrench. The lower ring bases were not removed. No change there.

I took it to the range on a friend's farm and it was a disaster. I had to adjust the scope for POI as it had changed by about 2 inches. 3 different bullets & loads which were old favourites just would not group. What used to be 1 inch groups were now 2.5 inches. I shot about 6 groups and gave up.

Rifle is sitting in the safe and I need to figure this out.

I would appreciate any thought on what happened & why. How do I go back to 1 inch groups?

I would not expect it to return to perfect zero, an inch or two is to be expected, but to loose accuracy suggests something is amiss. Do you have another scope around to swap in and shoot some groups with?

If you shake the scope, does it rattle?

Eighteen years from a modern scope is a pretty good run but if the erector system has deteriorated, Leupold will fix or replace it for you.
Just be thankful it did not collapse while on the hunt of your lifetime. That's where forever warranties cease to help.

Some old reticle-movement scope adjustments can seize up because their reliability has meant they have not needed to be touched for decades - and I suppose it is possible something analogous has happened to yours. Maybe the erector spring(s) lodged against one spot in the outer tube and didn't like the pressure to move when you had to rezero it.

There is some chance it's the rifle that's playing up, of course. Could it be the barrel is finally wearing? Maybe it didn't like the surgery, if it got that far, or that the bedding hasn't been restored properly. Perhaps if you just tighten the action screws the set-up will settle down.

Thanks guys

Rifle is fine. Shot good groups 3 times recently.

I will be meticulous about sand bag rest etc. Always under action in front of trigger guard. Never under fore end. I learned that lesson 30 years ago.

My sore neck muscles could be a possibility.

I'll check the scope. Wonder if I should vibrate the scope with a massager?

Fingers crossed

Putting the sandbag under the action is a new concept to me, NH. I can see how it could eliminate bad pressures on the barrel but worry that the bullet impact might change when you go hunting. The short distance between front and back bag is also counter-intuitive, but I guess you've proved that doesn't matter.

My experience is that any zero while resting the forend on the sandbag results in higher poi in the range and lower impact while hunting. It varies from rifle to rifle. Variance can be 1 inch to 3 inches.

Most hunting is quick off hand shots or sitting off knees at longer range. Occasionally I my rest on side of tree.

As long as I have my hand under the fore end, the poi does not change.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Putting the sandbag under the action is a new concept to me, NH. I can see how it could eliminate bad pressures on the barrel but worry that the bullet impact might change when you go hunting. The short distance between front and back bag is also counter-intuitive, but I guess you've proved that doesn't matter.

You may well be right, NH, but my off-hand shooting is not precise enough for me to have drawn such conclusions.
From time to time I have seen shots go low, off hand, but put it down to poor trigger control.
Leaning against a tree has certainly helped me shoot the last couple of deer.

Do you float your barrels by any chance?

Most of my rifles are free floated. Sako, Tikka, Kimber are factory. Kimber is bedded.

I've owned a Rem 700 in 243 that was not.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
You may well be right, NH, but my off-hand shooting is not precise enough for me to have drawn such conclusions.
From time to time I have seen shots go low, off hand, but put it down to poor trigger control.
Leaning against a tree has certainly helped me shoot the last couple of deer.

Do you float your barrels by any chance?

Why did you you remove the scope from the rings in the first place, I would have thought just lifting the scope and rings as a unit from what has been a very stable and accurate rifle would have been the most logical process. If the turret adjustments happen to be well away from centre originally, then when putting the scope back in the rings, any slight rotation of the scope from its original position could see a big shift in POI and then changing turret settings that haven't been touched for years sets off some random changes. I would wind both turrets to the ends of their adjustments then centre each one then reshoot to set POI and check grouping. I take it you did not remove the barreled action from the stock or start to do so?

I put a Leupold Base that is not QD

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Why did you you remove the scope from the rings in the first place, I would have thought just lifting the scope and rings as a unit from what has been a very stable and accurate rifle would have been the most logical process. If the turret adjustments happen to be well away from centre originally, then when putting the scope back in the rings, any slight rotation of the scope from its original position could see a big shift in POI and then changing turret settings that haven't been touched for years sets off some random changes. I would wind both turrets to the ends of their adjustments then centre each one then reshoot to set POI and check grouping. I take it you did not remove the barreled action from the stock or start to do so?

If Talley LW’s check they are not cracked. Hadn’t used my 84L 30.06 for a while and didn’t shoot to previous point of aim with installed Leupold 2.5-8x. Next time out of the safe I noticed it had broken across both front right hand screws. How I didn’t notice that when adjusting scope I don’t know.

Long story short might not be the scope.

I think mine are these - https://www.leupold.com/dd-kimber-84-2-pc-matte

I am not sure if they have single or double dovetail bases.

I do have to remove the scope off the rings first.

The weather was not great so I did not go to the range yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
If Talley LW’s check they are not cracked. Hadn’t used my 84L 30.06 for a while and didn’t shoot to previous point of aim with installed Leupold 2.5-8x. Next time out of the safe I noticed it had broken across both front right hand screws. How I didn’t notice that when adjusting scope I don’t know.

Long story short might not be the scope.

Sideways question:
Did you also remove the barreled action from the stock? If so, the issue could just as easily (or maybe even more easily) be a bedding/torque issue.

If you didn't, then just put a different scope on it. If it shoots, then it is indeed the scope, if not then it's the rifle.

I personally wouldn't try massage or bump the scope. A scope that can go out of wack from small bumps or vibrations needs to be replaced or fixed as such a scope will go out from just walking with the rifle.

Thanks.

Action was not touched. Original Kimber bedding.

The vibration idea was a frustrated tongue in cheek.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Connan:
Sideways question:
Did you also remove the barreled action from the stock? If so, the issue could just as easily (or maybe even more easily) be a bedding/torque issue.

If you didn't, then just put a different scope on it. If it shoots, then it is indeed the scope, if not then it's the rifle.

I personally wouldn't try massage or bump the scope. A scope that can go out of wack from small bumps or vibrations needs to be replaced or fixed as such a scope will go out from just walking with the rifle.

If you send me a picture of your groups shot with holes numbered I can 9 times out of 10 tell you what's causing the group change. but check out your scope and mounts first.

Perhaps the ring caps got reversed? Could be reversed or front to rear swap? They say it doesn't matter but if they were married up for 18 years they undoubtedly took a "set".

Update after 5 weeks.

I am back from a 3 week holiday in India with the whole family. My daughter in law had an introduction to our Indian family and friends. We also had an incredible 4 days with dear friends in Kabini tiger reserve. We saw all the major animals including tiger, leopard, bull gaur, sloth bear, dhole, and much more. I will post a report on the Asian forum.

I got a chance to try my Kimber again with 2 loads.

The great news is that I got 1.5 inch 5 shot group with the 154 gr Hornady.

I think I have identified the problem. I have been back shooting regularly for the last 18 months and have forgotten all the old routines.

Here are the things I concentrated on.

1. I realised that I was resting the fore end on the sand bag. A big no no. Today I I had it in my palm which rested on the bag. No more erratic bounce throwing shots.
2. I made sure but stock rested on the rear bag and was stable.
3. I made sure I had my trigger palm and arm resting on the bags for rock solid stability.

All the simple basics.

I shot a couple of groups that were spread left right but the vertical spread was 1 inch or less.

Best group was 4 shots in an inch and 1 called shot off by half inch.

100% operator errors as I had expected.

Thanks fore your suggestions.

I take it you did your shooting in NZ, not in India, NH.

I imagine getting a rifle into India would make RSA seem like a stroll.

Resting the forend on a rest is not a problem!

Saeed

I cannot match your skill, experience and variety / quality of equipment etc.

All my rifles have been standard factory rifles with a couple of rebarrel jobs. A few were epoxy bedded actions and under the chamber.

My first centrefires were a Remington 243 that was not free floated or bedded. It definitely used to shoot 1 to 2 inches high if I rested the fore end on a sand bag.

The other rifle was a Tikka LSA55 222 Rem which was factory free floated and had a small steel block bed. It was the most accurate rifle I ever owned. It also shot a tad high.

I found most consistency when I rested the rifle under the magazine or in my palm.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Resting the forend on a rest is not a problem!

I'd have to agree with Saeed on this. Notwithstanding your excellent results, NH, I see something analogous with the spacing of scope mounts; given a free-floating barrel, resting the fore end on the bag should give more stability because it provides greater distance between the rest points. It should also resemble the grips we take in the field.

Not intending to argue mate.
In the field the foreend is rested on the palm of my left hand. At the point of detonation the rifle is free to move in all directions right through barrel time of the bullet.

When resting the fore end on a solid rest, there is no movement downwards. Hence bullet flips up a bit.

The proof is in actually shooting groups at a range session- a few groups with fore end on the sand bag and a few on the palm. I have found this to be true with all my rifles. Some shoot higher than others.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I'd have to agree with Saeed on this. Notwithstanding your excellent results, NH, I see something analogous with the spacing of scope mounts; given a free-floating barrel, resting the fore end on the bag should give more stability because it provides greater distance between the rest points. It should also resemble the grips we take in the field.

I've seen instances wherein resting the forend on a hard surface made the rifle shoot 3 to 4 inches high..Its not that uncommon as a matter of fact..

there are a number of reasons that cause a rifle to shoot to a different POI when its taken down and put back together including a drop, to a horse rolling over the sheathed rifle in the saddle scabbard. Try bouncing your scoped rifle hard off the shop floor or give the scope a hard wack with your hand..

recently I saw a YouTube video by a log range target shooter with all the complex gear for shooting out to 1000+ yeards.

He did a study on rifle cant at 5 degrees and its impact on target at 100 to 1000 yards.

It was amazing that a 5 degree cant resulted in about 2 inches drift towards cant at 100 yds and 36 inches at 1000 yds.

The explained my frustration at missing animals at 300 meters when sitting on hill sides and canting the rifle while shooting left or right. Shooting straight up or down when seated on a hill slope is never a problem. But left or sight always is an uncomfortable position and the rifle always cants a fair bit.

An update on the original post. Definitely confirmed operator error.

Now I have got a secondhand Leupold Freedom 4-12X for my Tikka T3X 223 Rem.

The scope itself has good clarity up to 9X. Beyond that the image is not as sharp. Cross hairs are so much better than the Burris 3-9X

The scope came with an older set of Weaver rings - the hinged hood type. When fixing it to the Picatinny rail I had some initial problems and found that I needed to mount the scope 3 notches forward to clear both the front and rear bells.

I also found that it is easy misalign the claws when tightening them. The newer designs are a lot more self aligning.

I am considering cutting the rail & shortening it by 2 or 3 slots on either end. Any views on this?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I've seen instances wherein resting the forend on a hard surface made the rifle shoot 3 to 4 inches high..Its not that uncommon as a matter of fact..

..

I've seen that a lot too. It's enough to destroy silhouette scores. Oddly, or maybe not so oddly some rifles don't seem to care at all. Stiff forends in quality stocks go a long way. Whimpy tupperware and other springy stocks can drive you nuts.

I'm having a hard time understanding why resting the forend on a front sandbag would cause this POI phenomenon. This is, after all, the standard bench-rest shooting technique.

Perhaps it depends on whether the barrel is in contact with the stock or, instead, is free-floated. If the latter, it becomes even harder to understand this as there's absolutely no contact with the barrel regardless of whether the forend is resting on a hard surface or in one's hands.

Not doubting your account Nakihunter, just curious about why this should be.

I find shooting really light rifles need to be treated like double rifles. Hold the forend with hand on the rest, and hold the rifle like you shoot it in the field.

My new to me Adirondack 308 will shoot .75” for five shots this way. Just rest it on the rest and it will be all over the shop. They seem susceptible to ricocheting off the rest, unlike heavier rifles.

It’s not a sample of one, 223 Montana, 6.5 Hunter and my previous 260 Montana the same.

A great trigger is also required.

I did have an issue with my Kimber 30-06 where the Talley LW’s broke without me initially recognising it. Bugger. Luckily picked up at the range and not on a hunt.