I am have difficulty locating rings that will allow me to mount my new 3.5-10x 50mm VX-III on my rifle. The quarter rib is just high enough to only allow a a single sheet of paper to slip under it. Not sure if this is going to present a problem as far as accuracy or damage to the scope under recoil (7mm Mag).I am using the Leupold extra high rings. Does anyone have any advice about the scope being so close to the rib? Not sure if I should do it or not? I can post a photo later if needed.

Thanks Brad

Clearance is clearance. So long as the scope bell is not touching the rib, just being very "close" is the same as missing by a mile. I have a .375 H&H on which you have to shine a bright light on the opposite side in order to determine that there is actual clearance between the bell and the barrel (a piece of paper will not slip between). It's been shooting fine for a dozen years that way.

Now, some Einstein is undoubtedly going to tell you about thermal expansion, dynamic thrust and a bunch of other theoretical factors to convince you that you have to have a clearance of .XXX" per YYY of scope weight multiplied by VVV of barrel diameter, etc. The bottom line is if it clears it clears.

Now that that problem is solved, I strongly suggest that you trade that scope with its pie plate objective for a good hunting scope with a 40mm lens that you can mount low enough that your eye actually aligns with the sight picture when your cheek is on the stock. You'll find shooting your rifle much more convenient when the scope and the gun are both located at altitudes similar enough that the barometric pressures are pretty much the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Now that that problem is solved, I strongly suggest that you trade that scope with its pie plate objective for a good hunting scope with a 40mm lens that you can mount low enough that your eye actually aligns with the sight picture when your cheek is on the stock. You'll find shooting your rifle much more convenient when the scope and the gun are both located at altitudes similar enough that the barometric pressures are pretty much the same.

I strongly disagree with that statement.
The 3,5-10x50 is a fine scope size that covers a lot of hunting.
Crank it down to 3,5 and it work fine even in the woods.
Up to 10 it take care of longer shots and range work as well.
The 50 mm lense, gathers light and give an edge in low light hunting.

I have used such a scope for many years.
A better all round scope than the 3-9x40 in my book.
I find it a bit amusing that you Americans tend to kick ass as soon as anything goes over 40 mm ?

This is Ugly Betty a M77 / 35 Whelen with an old Vari X III 3,5-10x50 with Heavy Duplex reticle.
Never had any problems with eighter altitude or finding the deer in the scope
This combo simply works!

So go ahead Brad, it´s a great scope you got there

quote:

I have used such a scope for many years.
A better all round scope than the 3-9x40 in my book.
I find it a bit amusing that you Americans tend to kick ass as soon as anything goes over 40 mm ?

Not all of us. StoneCreek is a bit vocal on the subject though.

Myself I have switched over to the 3.5-15X56 NXS NF on all of the guns I hunt with. Mostly just go after coyotes these days.

quote:

I find it a bit amusing that you Americans tend to kick ass as soon as anything goes over 40 mm ?

And I find it baffling that Europeans have always liked to shoot with their heads bobbing around in the air. Just look at the drop in the combs on most European rifles of the old school! Even with iron sights, your head and the stock were no where close to one another.

Our guide in Africa, who had previously guided only Europeans, remarked that we Americans shot more like Africans than Europeans. "The Europeans are very slow; you have time to drink a cup of coffee before they decide to shoot", he remarked. Now I've figured out why Europeans are so slow to shoot: They're searching for the sight picture in the scope!

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I find it a bit amusing that you Americans tend to kick ass as soon as anything goes over 40 mm ?

And I find it baffling that Europeans have always liked to shoot with their heads bobbing around in the air. Just look at the drop in the combs on most European rifles of the old school! Even with iron sights, your head and the stock were no where close to one another.

Our guide in Africa, who had previously guided only Europeans, remarked that we Americans shot more like Africans than Europeans. "The Europeans are very slow; you have time to drink a cup of coffee before they decide to shoot", he remarked. Now I've figured out why Europeans are so slow to shoot: They're searching for the sight picture in the scope!

Guess not that this is the problem: too many sily laws and regulations in hunting here in Europe: -> any wrong shot could cost You the hunting license, so You decide twice and more sometimes (especially in very low light where we shot most of the pigs and therefor we need light athering scopes with 50mm or even 56mm !) before we pull the trigger. I guess You can not stop this kind of thinking when You are in Africa and therefor we are too slow maybe...


Nice rifle, but a sheet of paper would be not enough for me: at least 0,5mm should be of air between scope and barrel...

Here is my Ruger 77 with Zeiss rail mounted scope on a scope mount, made out of Titanium, plasma coated...

http://www.titanium-gunworks.d.../titan-montagen.html

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Our guide in Africa, who had previously guided only Europeans, remarked that we Americans shot more like Africans than Europeans. "The Europeans are very slow; you have time to drink a cup of coffee before they decide to shoot", he remarked. Now I've figured out why Europeans are so slow to shoot: They're searching for the sight picture in the scope!

I guess I had this coming

As you know, Europe is a big continent, with different countries and different laws regarding hunting.
As Scubapro said, one unfortunate situation can cost you dear, therefore better safe than sorry.

Anyway... the aformentioned scope is a good one, I stand by that

And Scubapro, a really nice set up you got there. Wich caliber and scope?

Thanks for the good humor, Arlid. I may be critical of the way Europeans mount their scopes, but I'm certainly not critical of Europeans! I've found them to be friendly and engaging people who are interesting to be around.

Now, if I could just convince them about scopes

Hmmmm, a 50 mm objective raises the center of the scope less than .2 inch (that's two tenths of an inch!) or about 2/3 of a pencil width. Hard to imagine that any decent shooter can't adjust to SO LARGE (sarcasm) a difference.

I suspect if Gremlins snuck in by dark of night and added a fifth of an inch of drop to your favorite shotgun stock you would howl in dismay. No?

Rifles should fit the shooter just as well as shotguns. When most stocks start out too low at the comb for a properly mounted scope of modest size, then they are that much further from correct when effectively made a fifth of an inch or more worse off.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I suspect if Gremlins snuck in by dark of night and added a fifth of an inch of drop to your favorite shotgun stock you would howl in dismay. No?

Rifles should fit the shooter just as well as shotguns. When most stocks start out too low at the comb for a properly mounted scope of modest size, then they are that much further from correct when effectively made a fifth of an inch or more worse off.

Bullshit. Shotguns are pointed and the rear "sight" is the eye, so position is more critical but still has substantial room for variation. Rifles are aimed and the eye is positioned to see the sights. Big difference.

I repeat, any decent shooter won't notice a fifth of an inch. Ridiculous argument.

BTW, drop is much easier to compensate for in a shotgun than height. All you have to do is cheek the gun slightly less aggressively, you know, like a pencil width or so.

OTOH, if the comb is too high then the only real cure is to learn how to shoot with the bird on top of the ribs, which is how most of the best Europeans shoot anyway. You'll notice that most of the Euro shotguns (that is ones made for the European market) have a higher comb than American guns. Personally I was never fond of high shooting guns even for trap I prefer a relatively flat shooter, like 55/45.

I notice the additional difference. I got rid of my 40mm scopes and went to 32mm. I can point them like a shotgun and they line up instantly.

Here is the photo of my scope. As you can all see it is very close to the quarter rib. I put a piece of paper in there and mounted the scope. Upon pulling the paper out it was very tight but came out without ripping. I have enjoy all of the input thus far. Where I hunt 300 yard shots in deep forest canopy occur on a regular basis. The scope was purchased for my custom 9.3mm RUM to take 400 yards shots at elk in NE Oregon. I was just trying to use it for my 7mm during deer season so I didn't have to buy yet another scope. I have a 2-7x and a 3-9x Leupold Compact ultra light but the occular is too small for my liking. I mainly like the new 3.5-10x with the B&C rectical and thought what the heck.

Thanks

quote:

Hmmmm, a 50 mm objective raises the center of the scope less than .2 inch (that's two tenths of an inch!) or about 2/3 of a pencil width. Hard to imagine that any decent shooter can't adjust to SO LARGE (sarcasm) a difference.

Don't the Leupold scopes in VX-3L and VX-7 make this all a moot point?

To some extent, I'm not sure if they make up for the WHOLE (sarcasm) difference of two tenths inch, but since their optical performance is not as good as a round objective of the same normal size, I've never bought one. Why pay more for less?

quote:

their optical performance is not as good as a round objective of the same normal size,

I've never heard that before. Interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I notice the additional difference. I got rid of my 40mm scopes and went to 32mm. I can point them like a shotgun and they line up instantly.

Yep. The better the rifle fits you, the faster it is to acquire the sight picture and the faster you can shoot. Obviously, this is not a big factor in bench shooting (although the rifle fit must be comfortable in order to hold it most consistently). In teaching many different kids to shoot, it has become obvious to me that the natural fit (or lack thereof) of the gun is one of the most important factors in shooting well.

As I said earlier, most rifle stocks are lower than ideal for scope shooting to begin with, and the larger the objective and higher the scope must be mounted, the worse the problem. Leupold clearly recognizes this problem, thus their somewhat wacky VX-L to attempt to mitigate it. After all, if the problem didn't exist, why would a manufacturer spend a lot of money producing a very expensive product to solve it?

We all understand the optical advantages of a larger objective (well, most of us, anyway). Be that as it may, in the vast majority of hunting situations the shooter is better served by a scope with a smaller objective that is in the right place for his natural eye position than an otherwise superior scope with a larger objective that is in the wrong place for his eye.

Maybe I'm overly sensative to stock fit and eye placement, but a fifth of an inch certainly feels like quite a bit to me.

Oh horse manure. I'll bet you change your head position MORE than a fifth of an inch anytime you substantially change the rifle hold, for instance, standing versus shooting out of a blind, prone instead of shooting at a bench.

I tried a little experiment last night. I shouldered my rifles quickly with both eyes closed. I then opened my eyes with my finger on the trigger ready to take a shot. Each time my eye was aligned well enough that I could have made a good shot. Thats why I can't stand the compact scopes with the smaller rear eye peices. The standard full size scopes worked just fine. I used a VX-III 1.5-5x,1.75-6x,3.5-10x and 4.5-14x all on the lowest power. I know for a fact that my 2-7 and 3-9 compact have a much lesser margin of error and at times my eye would be out of alignment completely. I'd be ineterested if anyone else can replicate this?

Thanks Brad

Shouldn't be a problem for me, I shoot with both eyes closed anyway. The scope is too high to see through.........

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
I tried a little experiment last night. I shouldered my rifles quickly with both eyes closed. I then opened my eyes with my finger on the trigger ready to take a shot. Each time my eye was aligned well enough that I could have made a good shot. Thats why I can't stand the compact scopes with the smaller rear eye peices. The standard full size scopes worked just fine. I used a VX-III 1.5-5x,1.75-6x,3.5-10x and 4.5-14x all on the lowest power. I know for a fact that my 2-7 and 3-9 compact have a much lesser margin of error and at times my eye would be out of alignment completely. I'd be ineterested if anyone else can replicate this?

Thanks Brad

Brad,

You're absolutely correct that one of the optical trade-offs for making a more compact scope is less latitude in eye placement.

The Leupold compact line certainly exhibits this trait, but several people who have tried the Burris compacts tell me that the eye positioning is so critical that they have given up on using them.

The more restrictive the eye placement of a scope, the more important that its mounting position naturally aligns with your eye.

Gato: You're obviously much less demanding in how well your rifles fit you. That's fine. After all, people who tolerate mediocrity well generally have a happier life.

I think as long as you hit what your aiming
at, and kill it, nothing else really matters..

Don't mean to change topic here, but this is
kinda related OK... on the m77 they offer
low, med and high mounts are there any others?
how much difference is there in med and high
or high and xtra high if they make those?
Does anyone make a see thru mount for the m77?
'cause I have a rs model....and miss shooting
sights when the scope is mounted....
Thanks in advance.....

Jo:

If you take a look on my rifle I have the highest rings made (leupold Extra high) hence my problem . Also I have a quater rib rear sight and a fixed front sight. My advice is carry a quarter and pull the scope off if you need your sights or go buy a Warne detactable ring set. If you can find higher rings let me know. If you go on the leupold site they can tell you the spec's extra high = 1.13" cenetr of ring to bottom of ring base note ruger measures the ring sizes differently. I took me 3 days to finally get it fiqured out.



Brad

quote:

Gato: You're obviously much less demanding in how well your rifles fit you. That's fine. After all, people who tolerate mediocrity well generally have a happier life.

You've got it exactly backwards, as you are prone to do, I am much MORE demanding in the quality of my optics and if I have to sacrifice a whole 1/5 of an inch or so to get better optical performance, it is a very worthwhile sacrifice. Small minds seem to like small glass......

Gato
You seem to be taking this awfully personally No one care if you use a scope the size of a roll of paper towells on your rifle I've tried different sizes and much prefer smaller ones

If you'll read the above quote, Stonecreek made it personal and I responded. I don't care if you use a toilet paper ROLL for a scope. In optics, size does matter and smaller objectives don't allow as much light to reach your pupil as larger ones. In bright light that doesn't make any difference, but in dark timber at on a cloudy day, in Texas waiting for pigs to show up after legal time for deer (but still legal for pigs which can be hunted 24/7), or hunting pigs by moonlight it sure as hell does. THE ONLY TIME WHERE RIFLE FIT REALLY IS CRITICAL IS WHEN YOU ARE HUNTING DANGEROUS GAME AND MAY NEED TO TAKE A HURRIED SHOT AT VERY CLOSE RANGE. Since that doesn't apply to 99% of American hunters I prefer optical quality.

Just for your information, this is a long running argument between Stonecreek and I, and I don't take it personally and I'm sure he doesn't as well. I'd be the first to buy him a beer anytime. I'd recognize him by the squint lines around his eyes from trying to see through those mini-scopes.

ok No doubt differences in hunting styles do make a difference in scope selection. I've never hunted from a blind or taken a prone shot at a game animal or shot anything at dusk. Most of the deer and all of the bear i've shot at were on a drive and were moving. When I lived in Texas I had a 8x56 but it seemed ridiculous in PA and I got rid of it.

Hey, Mike: It's not personal, Gato just takes it that way. Sitting up night after night watching for a pig can mess with your mind

I've been parrying with Gato for years and he's much better natured than he sometimes comes across (me, too, I'm sure!) He and I differ some on scopes (although he thought enough of a plain old "inferior" Leupold with a 40mm objective to let his kid hunt with it in Africa). And perhaps we differ on shotguns (I'm a small gauge guy and he likes blunderbusses and 100 yard dove shooting). But if you read between the lines, he's acutally a pretty practical person (just has some eccentricities -- not at all like me). Oh, sure, if he happens to take the wrong side in an argument, he sticks to it like Velcro, anyway. But I doubt I'd turn him down on a beer -- especially if he was buying!

I'm glad everybody is happy Where would a forum be without opinions?

Stonecreek:

I'm CERTAIN that you can recognize the wrong side of an argument, after all a mirror is wonderful thing.......

As far as buying the beer goes, we'll have to meet on neutral ground, say at Bobby Tomek's town, Shiner, where I can afford to feed your habit......or, better yet, in Windhoek and I'll buy you a Tafel. Oil prices will have to go up first for me though.

BTW I've told this before, but since you brought up late nights and pigs AND BEER.....

What's the difference between a pig and a drunk?

A pig won't stay up all night trying to screw a drunk.

Top that one for relevance, small glass.

quote:

As far as buying the beer goes, we'll have to meet on neutral ground, say at Bobby Tomek's town, Shiner, where I can afford to feed your habit......or, better yet, in Windhoek and I'll buy you a Tafel.

By the way, did you see that Tafel won an award as best in class in a GERMAN contest this year? It ain't at all bad beer. If I recall, it was priced the equivalent about $1 in one hotel bar, and the U.S. Dollar has gone from 7:1 to 10:1 since then, so it should be a real bargain now.

Speaking of beer, I had a new one last night which is made just a few miles down the road from my house. Real Ale Alamo Golden (made in Blanco). Tasty. And the great thing about it is that once you empty the bottle, the bottom of it is almost a perfect likeness of a 50mm Swarovski objective lens

I tried all the beers that I could find in 3 weeks hunting and roaming around in Namibia and Tafel, to my tastes, was by far the best. There was a seasonal winter beer made in Swakopmund that I couldn't find. They were all excellent compared to the imported South African horse juice.

FWIW I've been intermittently drinking the new Budweiser American Ale and I find it to be quite good. Not too "stouty" but still has a much better than average body.

Another one that you might find appealing, a little heavier than Bud Am. is Shiner Commemorator in honor of their 100th aniversary. I hope they keep making it after this year.

Damn, you've given me an idea, make a scope shaped like a beer bottle with a picture of a beautiful woman on the outside. That way I could hold three of the things I like best all at once!

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stonecreek:
O
And Scubapro, a really nice set up you got there. Wich caliber and scope?

Sorry Arild to be late, but the Jagd&Hund exhibition is hard work for me as exhibitor... You see I am working aafter midnight ...

It´s the Ruger Express Rifle (77 Mk2) in .30-06 with my Titanium Gunworks scope mount, made from solid Titanium, black plasma coated...

The only thing I would wish it would have been a Swarovski scope instead the Zeiss as I had non-trustfull experoiences with Zeiss repair...

Next mount I produce for any Ruger I will make a Swarovski SR rail edition and use one of them for myself...

Gato,

(Pardon to all for hijacking the thread), Now that Budweiser has been bought by the Europeans, it may be that they will start brewing actual beer. Glad to have the recommendation of Bud Am Ale.

Come to think of it, if the Europeans would make all of the beer and the Americans would make all of the scopes, it would indeed be a more perfect world.

If it was mine and the paper between the barrel and scope is not loose (as you stated), I would raise it up. The exception to that would be if it was on a rifle that had little to no recoil. I have seen rifles posted some where on the net where the scope was damaged by being that close. There may be many rifles with scopes mounted that close and are fine, but I would not do it. I have a Nightforce NXS, 3.5x15x56 mounted on my A-Bolt and I use medium rings and still have room under the scope.

Fat cat
And think of the product placement possibilities. You could get the Anhauser Bush sponsorship and slap a picture of the actress from whatever movie is being promoted at the moment. Do they sell Yuengling in Texas yet? It seems to be taking over the local market here. Better than most US brands and cheaper than imports.

Mikelravy:

Re: Yuengling sales in Texas

Unfortunately no. The first I ever had was coming back through Dulles from South Africa last fall. It was draft and EXCELLENT, even given that I had flown all night and was having it with breakfast. I've never been one of those who think that you have to wait for some specific time to hae a beer. When I got home I checked and, as far as I can tell, it is mostly an East Coast distribution system.

Well that's a reason for me living in PA despite subzero weather lately and no deer anymore. The Moose lodge has Yuengling bottles for $1.75 and has it on tap for about $1.00.

Pardon my ignorance. Where is Yuengling brewed? Is it a pilsner, lager, dark lager, ale, or what?