Practice is Overrated

01 June 2022, 07:11

Michael Robinson

I am amazed at the opinions of competition shooters when it comes to dangerous game hunting.

As Saeed says, dangerous game hunting is an exercise of controlled yanking the trigger.

Nobody counts x’s.

Also, one does not have to be a Navy Seal in order to hunt dangerous game successfully.

We need to remember that dangerous game generally have enormous fatal shot zones and are shot at close range.

When I was at the range yesterday, I would pull a shot from time to time. I had to laugh. The only difference was between being in the center of the 10 ring and clipping the edge.

As though a Cape buffalo or an elephant would notice.

I say again, in DG hunting, practice is definitely overrated!

Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.

01 June 2022, 08:12

nmhunter4life

I used to guide hunters quite a bit for aoudad. I would always absolutely hate hearing "I am good to 600 (or 800, or 1000) yards." It was a definite sign of shooting that was about to go very bad. I only had one guy who said that, and actually shot well (at 300 yards). The guys who would say something along the lines of "I am comfortable to 300, but lets get as close as we can" would usually shoot well.

This is just my experience in guiding about 50-60 different hunters.

01 June 2022, 08:30

SlamFire

quote:
Originally posted by Gundog 64:

Slam Fire,
I am going to take exception to some of what you said. I am a competitive shooter (Long range prone, and across the course). I only shoot from a bench to get the rifle zeroed, then that's it, no more bench. The basics of good marksmanship are the same when shooting competition and hunting. The shortest range I shoot competition at is 200 yds offhand, 300 prone rapid, 600, 800, 900, and 1000 yards prone. I would never take a 200 yard offhand shot in the field, but would have a better chance than 95%of hunters to make a good shot. I would also never shoot at an animal past 500 and then only in ideal conditions. I'm pretty damn good at reading the wind on a range, but the mountains are a whole different story. Knowing and admitting your limitations is a good thing to do in the field. I also wonder about your story of your buddy, seems to cast a pretty wide net.

It is good you shoot enough to understand your limitations. That means you are more likely to have an ethical hunt, where the animal does not run off wounded, to die a suffering death.

The point of my buddy's story is hubris. Ignore the fundamentals of sight alignment, trigger pull, and follow through, each and every shot, and all that practice, all that training, goes down the drain.

01 June 2022, 22:59

Woodhits

Competition is valuable in that it can require individuals to perform tasks under stress, i.e., a timer and spectators. I've seen many a great shooter's wheels come off at the sound of the buzzer. I'm talking about USPSA, 3-gun, IDPA, etc.

From the fumbling I see on many DG hunting videos, a lot of folks could use some practice when it comes to executing reloads-- I know that I have room for improvement with a double. To that end, I loaded up some dummy 450-400 rounds for my upcoming hunt and have been focusing most of my efforts on that aspect of "practice".

Personally, I see no problem in being "over prepared"...and preparing for the hunt is half the fun, anyway.

01 June 2022, 23:20

kurtbe

quote:
Originally posted by nmhunter4life:
I used to guide hunters quite a bit for aoudad. I would always absolutely hate hearing "I am good to 600 (or 800, or 1000) yards." It was a definite sign of shooting that was about to go very bad. I only had one guy who said that, and actually shot well (at 300 yards). The guys who would say something along the lines of "I am comfortable to 300, but lets get as close as we can" would usually shoot well.

This is just my experience in guiding about 50-60 different hunters.

This ^^^^^^

USMC Retired
DSC Life Member
SCI Life Member
NRA Life Member

02 June 2022, 16:11

Brandon.Gleason

I enjoy the practice aspect. So much of the hunt for me is the prep that leads up to it. It really lets me milk a big trip out over the two yeas I save for it. Some of that is at the range, but a lot of that is at home in either my basement or my back yard. Things like getting into the sticks, target acquisition, and an expeditiously squeezed off first shot, followed by a transition OFF of sticks with an action cycling.
One new thing I'll be practicing ahead of next May's elephant hunt will be reloading from the belt while moving. This will likely only be able to happen in the back yard with dummy cartridges, but should build good muscle memory.
I also started (ahead of last year's plains game hunt) carrying my rifle on the treadmill, getting my heart rate up, then hopping down and taking aim at a small animal picture across the basement to work on breath control. That one was an eyeopener for me!
Lastly I just enjoy shooting. I don't have nearly the time for it I wish for, but I get out when I can. Its a nice way to de-stress for me.

02 June 2022, 22:40

Michael Robinson

Interesting responses to a statement that is admittedly very personal. I have been careful to qualify it in that way.

I have been shooting and hunting for tortoise's years. I used to practice a lot more than I do now. But I simply don't need to do as much live fire practice these days. I already learned to ride that bicycle, and I will not forget how!

Dry firing is great non-shooting practice. So is function testing, including working the bolt hard and fast from the shoulder, as that can be necessary from time to time. I agree with all of that.

Needless to say, one had better be sure all screws and bolts are secure as well.

But I see no need and have no desire to keep banging away at the range putting bullet after bullet in the black ad infinitum.

For me, it's not necessary, and even gets boring after the minimum noted above.

We were looking over a herd of dozens of hippo as they waddled in the mud of a korongo one year.

My PH, who was French, said to me, as he looked across the korongo at a bull standing and facing us from about 30 yards, "That eez a good 'eepo, Mike. You should shoot that 'eepo."

A split second later the hippo was dead, shot by by yours truly, offhand, through the brain. My PH was behind me with the sticks and nearly jumped out of his skin.

I had had my usual minimum practice with that rifle before taking that shot (and many other shots over the years), and it was and still is more than enough for me.

Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.

03 June 2022, 18:45

SlamFire

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vining:
I believe shooting to be a perishable skill. Instead of shooting my "Big Game" rifles, I shoot 17 HMR and 22 long rifle. Practice trigger discipline, breathing, site acquisition, shooting from various positions helps keep my shooting up to snuff.

Good post. When Highpower season ended, the best advice I got was to shoot indoor smallbore prone league during the winter. When the good weather came back, my X counts at 600 yards went up.

Shooting is a skill. Practice or lose the skill.

03 June 2022, 19:05

Skyline

quote:
Originally posted by nmhunter4life:
I used to guide hunters quite a bit for aoudad. I would always absolutely hate hearing "I am good to 600 (or 800, or 1000) yards." It was a definite sign of shooting that was about to go very bad. I only had one guy who said that, and actually shot well (at 300 yards). The guys who would say something along the lines of "I am comfortable to 300, but lets get as close as we can" would usually shoot well.

This is just my experience in guiding about 50-60 different hunters.

Sadly, I have to agree. After 45 years of guiding big game hunters I can honestly say that I find myself preparing for the worst when I have a hunter that brags about their shooting skills. It usually means I am in for a shit show of wounded game, misses and petulant behaviour by the client.

I also find that a lot of hunters miss out on opportunities because they can't get their act together quick enough to pull off a quick well placed shot...and quickly getting ready to send another one on its way if necessary. You see far too many hunters that show a distinct lack of familiarity with the rifle they are carrying....a familiarity that only comes with a good deal of practice and handling of a specific type of firearm.

______________________________________________

The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift.

03 June 2022, 21:56

SlamFire

quote:
Originally posted by Skyline:

Sadly, I have to agree. After 45 years of guiding big game hunters I can honestly say that I find myself preparing for the worst when I have a hunter that brags about their shooting skills. It usually means I am in for a shit show of wounded game, misses and petulant behaviour by the client.

I believe the braggarts are those who are covering their inadequacies with boasts. They want to be that good, know that they are not, but won’t admit it. I don’t hunt anymore, but I still shoot with, and talk to National Champions. These guys have found that braggarts are resented, so they don’t go around with a brass band blasting their achievements. And, talk to any of them, everyone has had train wrecks. We all know, it takes very little to have one’s weekend ruined.

There is something I have noticed with these outstanding competitors, they are not going to allow you to beat them. So don’t claim you are. There is this clock spring in everyone of them, and if challenged, that clock spring gets tighter and tighter, and they really bear down on the task at hand, and improve. They don’t choke under pressure, pressure makes them hold harder.

I think a great article to read is this one by David Dunning. This is the same Dunning of the Kruger Dunning effect: that is there are individuals who are so incompetent, they don’t know they are incompetent. This one is interesting and really shows that the humans have an infinite capacity for self deception and delusion.

We Are All Confident Idiots
https://psmag.com/social-justi...nfident-idiots-92793

04 June 2022, 02:27

Gundog 64

quote:
Originally posted by SlamFire:
Good post. When Highpower season ended, the best advice I got was to shoot indoor smallbore prone league during the winter. When the good weather came back, my X counts at 600 yards went up.

Shooting is a skill. Practice or lose the skill.

Slam Fire,
I couldn't agree more, smallbore prone really shows you errors in your position. I have never bragged I was a great shot in the field, I have also never bragged I was a great shot on the range, but I can hold my own and have done well. Had some train wrecks along the way. But I do feel all of my competitive shooting has made me a better shot in the field. If someone does not feel practice is worthwhile, then don't practice, if you do then do it.....simple. I always feel there is room for improvement in my shooting skills, so I practice.

04 June 2022, 03:27

AnotherAZWriter

A few years ago we built a house on some land in CO. I bought that land specifically because I can shoot as far as I want right out of the backdoor. It allows me to chrono every shot via a LabRadar as well as video tape my shots. Today my first shot was at 908 yards with a .338 Lapua shooting 285 ELDs at 2840. Early morning, not much wind, held 1/2 MOA and hit the top edge of my 3 inch aiming square. A few hours later shot at a 760 yard gong with wind blowing harder. Held 2 1/4 minutes for wind, just missed the aiming square. Those shots were prone. Just now I went out and shot my .338WM, the rifle I have used on every African hunt, and hit my 400 yard gong shooting sitting over sticks. Shot was about 4" low, 3" to the right.

Every day I also shoot three shots standing at 100 yards. Typically I do this with a .223 Rem. I also shoot about 100 rounds a week at PDs.

There is no question I am a better shot practicing every day, esp when it comes to reading the wind. As for the need to practice with big bore rifles, I would agree it is not as important as long range practice, but even then, I do shoot my big bores every now and then standing at 75 and 100 yards.

IMO, the practice that is best for hunt prep is standing at 100 and PD shooting. Shooting gongs past 500 may not be realistic for Africa, but it is fun, and it does teach trigger control.

Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

04 June 2022, 06:44

lockingblock

In action pistol competition, I am measurably slower and less accurate if I’ve been off the gun for a month.

I’ve been shooting handguns professionally for 19 years and am a firearms instructor.

The same applies to rifle work, physical fitness and martial arts.

If all your shots are relatively easy, with a low heart rate on sunny days…you likely don’t need much skill. If the opposite is true…you do.

Thing is, you don’t have to burn much powder to get there. Dry fire, from a legitimate written weekly plan, can get you a long way.

If you want to see it, get Coach’s eye app and video yourself running the gun.

Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.

05 June 2022, 21:42

SlamFire

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Just for purposes of illustrating my point, last year in Botswana, I killed two Cape buffalo, one with my .450 Rigby, and the other with my .500 A-Square.

When I shot them, the first buffalo was 30 yards away, and the second was 15 yards away.

Needless to say, I did not shoot them from the prone position, or any other position, besides standing up on my hind legs!

I would not have wanted to shoot any of those calibers at all, given the punishing recoil, and most certainly not prone!

However, if you understood your limitations, if you made your shots, and you did not muck it up and cause a suffering death for the animals, then nothing you did can be criticized.

Now this guy, he is shooting a 1911 one handed at targets 50 yards away.

All the AMU shooters I talked to had been deployed, so it is very likely, with his marksmanship skills, he had been beaning hostiles 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800 yards away with a rifle. Incidentally, these AMU shooter compete in events, rifle, pistol, etc. The thing is, these guys burn tens of thousands of rounds a month in various firearms, and thus, their ethical shooting range is way out there.

Not everyone has the discipline not to shoot beyond their shooting skills, and industry promotes their delusions. This is typical

having a bigger boom stick means, you can hit the animal at vast distances. So, you can compensate for lack of shooting skills by spending money, and apparently, not practicing.

05 June 2022, 23:36

PWS

Depends on what you practice. I can’t imagine NOT getting better at shooting DG quickly, offhand and at short range if that’s what you did 100s of times a day. However, I also can’t see where sitting at a bench trying to stack 125gr 30BR bullets on top of each other would develop any advanced skill for DG.

Bell was infamous for having a technically terrible shooting form but his extensive gun handling and use appeared to result in prodigious skill (and if you think he was only shooting sedate animals in the clear, read of some of the firefights he got into driving river islands).

06 June 2022, 04:15

Heym SR20

I think a lot of this discussion is mixing learning a skill to get to get to a good level of proficiency and then maintaining it.

I learnt to shoot as boy, with thousands of pellets from an airrifle, and plenty of shotgun cartridges at flying game. As for proper rifles that was two fold. Firstly in the cadets at school i got myself in charge of the range so every Monday afternoon whilst most of the other cadets did marching and field craft I would set the range up for cadets rifle practice and then pretty much had a lane to myself for the afternoon. I shot thousands of rounds of 22rf through a No 8 rifle. And on big range days at camp, plenty of 303 through No4 and a few 7.62 through the SLR. When it came to hunting rifles in my 20’s those skills just transferred.

I am confident I can go out into the woods in the morning and shoot any roe buck that offers a chance. If its within reasonable range just shoot it off hand if I need to, but if I can I use a rest or sticks. I now what I can and cannot do and keep within my skill level.

I have never shot that far, and try a keep to ranges where point blank is all I need to think about. However I am trying to grow my skill base by spending more time on the range shooting gongs.

My nephew rang me a few weeks ago and asked if he could come up stalking for a few days. Last time he shot a rifle was a few years ago so first task is to get him up to a level of proficiency. We are going to spend a few hours with the 22rf shooting at a cardboard box coloured to look like the shoulder of a Roe buck.

I am not going to start a bench rest or prone. He is going of sticks and I will teach him to hit the middle of yhe shoulder off sticks.

It will take some shots and we will use the 22. Once happy, he will shoot a few from the 275 Rigby - perhaps two or three. Then a few more from the 22. Then we will go hunting. And I will make sure that he is close enough for an easy shot.

And if his skill level is not good enough, we will still go hunting and he can learn to gralloch and skin and carry.

06 June 2022, 20:26

Mike_Dettorre

I think a lot of this is mixing the value of practicing something that is relatively easy for a particular individual as opposed to practicing something that is more difficult for a particular individual.

For many people hitting a 12 inch target standing off sticks at 75 yards (a reasonable approximation of many DGR shots) under calm conditions is not overly difficult. So practicing that task over and over is not very useful. Now doing so after performing 25 push-ups or or running some wind sprints is likely more instructive as being "out of breath" is a good simulator for stress.

Alternatively, repeated practice of hitting an 8 inch target standing off of sticks at 175 yards (a reasonable approximation of PG shots) might be warranted for many individuals.

Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.

What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.

www.accuratereloading.com
Instagram : ganyana2000

08 June 2022, 21:21

lpankratz

I grew up shooting every day open sights on the farm. In my 20s and 30s I shot quite a few varmints and pigeons almost daily as well. I wouldn't call myself great but I rarely missed anything I put in the cross hairs. Then in 2020 I got into an accident and now I'm having to relearn to shoot lefty. My lgs is getting me a cz 457 in 22 lefty very soon. I plan to shoot that daily all summer. I did get decent with a shotgun on doves last fall and I managed to bag a deer but it definitely isn't a natural feeling like before the accident. I can't tell you how many times last fall I shouldered the gun to the wrong side only to be deflated. I plan to correct that this summer. My ph wants me to shoot a buffalo next year and I plan on impressing him with my new skills.

09 June 2022, 23:40

Mike_Dettorre

quote:
Out in the hills today with the 9.3x62mm.

Set up a 10" bull target somewhere's around 60 yards.

Game plan: start off on the sticks - first shot. Then step away and to the side for the off-hand shot. Finally, from there drop and take the third shot from the knee.

3 iterations, kept 'em all in the black, averaged 6 seconds.

Happy camper

even better practice would have been to turn your back and move back 20 yards between shots so you had to completely re-acquire the target and from a greater distance.

Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.

Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.

11 June 2022, 05:41

phurley5

Any practice is time well spent with the rifle or shotgun of your choice before hunting. I shoot weekly all year weather permitting. I am perfecting loads for my son and pastel of grandsons or hunting buddies. Probably 90 percent from the bench with Chronograph. All scope shooting from my private range. The act of aiming and placing the crosshairs on target repeatedly is invaluable for later use when in the field. The hope is it becomes second nature when nut cutting time comes. Those that hunt with me shoot on my range before hunts until they are satisfied with their rifles and loads. This is how we do it for whatever it’s worth. Good Shooting.

02 August 2022, 08:19

chuck375

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
As I prepare for my next DG safari, I have found myself thinking that load development and zeroing, and confirmation of functioning, are the only reasons I practice.

I use the same rifles on safari year after year, and by all objective standards, I use them to good effect.

Once I have the right bullet at the right velocity, hitting point of aim in a clean and well-functioning rifle, I stop shooting.

For me, that's usually no more than 10-20 shots on paper, including from the bench, and also standing, off of a rest for the non-trigger pulling hand.

After that minimum bit of shooting, I have begun to ask myself, what good does it do to keep burning powder and throwing copper down range?

Especially in this era of component shortages.

After due consideration, my answer these days is that it does no good at all.

Practice, beyond the degree stated above, at least for me, at this stage of my hunting life, is overrated to the point of being unnecessary.

Thoughts?

Agree. I used to shoot 1500 rounds through my 270 when I lived in Montana. It was recreation. After awhile I shot just enough to sight it in, verify function and then when hunting. I do the same with my 500 Jeffery.

Regards,

Chuck

"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

06 August 2022, 11:53

470EDDY

I try to shoot 500-1000 Prairie Dogs a year with completely different rifles than my Africa battery. All positions bench, sticks, offhand... some handgun too... and stretching the range progressively... 347yards so far... with 222Remington, 22 Hornet, 22 LR and Mag.
I bird hunt regularly too, shoot my Sheridan pellet gun around home...
All of this adds up to success in the field... and trust me, shotgun/bird hunting has saved my bacon...including a flying Lion at less than 10 yards!!
I have seen paper shooters miss Moose at 50 yards!!
CheerZ,

06 August 2022, 13:05

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I try to shoot 500-1000 Prairie Dogs a year with completely different rifles than my Africa battery. All positions bench, sticks, offhand... some handgun too... and stretching the range progressively... 347yards so far... with 222Remington, 22 Hornet, 22 LR and Mag.
I bird hunt regularly too, shoot my Sheridan pellet gun around home...
All of this adds up to success in the field... and trust me, shotgun/bird hunting has saved my bacon...including a flying Lion at less than 10 yards!!
I have seen paper shooters miss Moose at 50 yards!!
CheerZ,

I missed a real hippo at 50 yards!

www.accuratereloading.com
Instagram : ganyana2000

06 August 2022, 14:55

CharlesL

Twenty years ago I was a decent shot out to 200 yards, but at some point I started having problems with just being unsteady. Now even on a bench my crosshairs wonder some side to side. Elevation I can control with breathing. Practicing more just developed a flinch. Primarily I shoot 30-06. I started with 180gr, then 165gr, and then 150gr. I have switched to a 7mm-08 with 140gn and added weight to better balance the rifle and get the weight up to 9lbs.

It doesn't help that I have arthritis, bursitis, and calcium deposits in both shoulders. Physical therapy helped my left shoulder, but not my right one.

I am now limiting myself to 100 yard shots on animals, and they must be standing still. I still enjoy being outdoors, but I pass on a lot of shots.