Well folks, I still do not have an answer to this that can be confirmed. However I did make an interesting find. I was under the mistaken impression that a hard monolithic bullet would not get deformed in the magazine of my rifle. Especially the puny little 30/06.

Today I was cleaning up a few odds and ends from my reloading gear and setting up to reload some ammo this week. While removing empty brass and unused shells from my leather shell holders that we used in Africa I had one that contained 5 rounds.

One was an empty and four were still loaded and ready to go. I recognized this 5 pack of shells as the ones I used on my last day. They were also the same 5 pack of shells my last hunter had with her. The one that was used was the shell I killed the warthog with. The other 4 were in that gun a couple weeks. The ones in the botttom of that magazine were not used during that time. The magazine would be topped off with new ammo as they were shot. Since the Model 70 holds 5 in the magazine the bottom 3-4 shells were not used for long periods. With this find I noticed something very interesting.

Look at this photo of the tips of these bullets:



Gotta wonder what effect this flat tip has on the ability to open up after impact? What if it had been closed up even more, as if from a magnum level recoil? Maybe this has something to do with the unusual bore sized exits. Maybe these flat tips, or closed tips don't open the same?

I'll be honest I never expected a Barnes bullet to get a deformed tip from recoil in the magazine of a little 30/06 rifle. Imagine what they might look like with a 375HH or any weatherby cartridge.

My very strong suggestion is to be very careful and certain that you cycle the bottom cases up and out of the rifle frequently. Don't let a bullets nose get pounded in the magazine over time. Although I have nothing to prove that this will effect the ability to open up it is certainly a suspect issue at this point.

I think the phenomena is probably the same as was seen with the original Barnes X (the pencil-point design) - it did not always open up. Especially on broadside lung shots. And it is the same problem that the Nosler Combined Technologies bullet has.

Norbert said that grinding "some millimeters" off the tip of a Barnes X-Bullet caused it to behave more like a solid, that is, not open up, on elephant head shots. I assume Norbert has verified this by testing.

This could be the answer. Battering the nose down "some millimeters" also makes the exposed opening smaller and may "work harden" the tip.

Thanks be to JJ.

Rotate that ammo and make sure the first shot has a good nose on it.

One shot: Meat!
Two shot: Maybe!
Three shot: Heap big crap!

(Old Lakota saying.)

While testing my 416 rem mag I used three dummy rounds in the magazine while loading over the fourth and cycling all through the rifle at each shot. After ten shots the tips on the barnes bullets became quite flat. After fifty rounds they were definitely flat but did not seat much deaper in the case even with no powder.

This may also push the bullet deeper into the case screwing up what you thought was an accurate load. The Barnes bullets are well known to be fussy with the amount of freebore it has.

I use a Lee Factory Crimp die and load 25 off the lands. They are as close to a molecular bond into the shells as possible! Ain't nothin movin in those loads until the trigger is pulled!

.

I think as stated in my earlier post that they acted basically like gold dots and the front became so stable (by collapsing in on itself) that the bullet became a solid. I dont need 10 dollar words to explain this. I believe there is a very fine line between a homogeneous metal bullet tip failing and working. A lead filled hollow tip like an a-frame has the advatage that the very forward area can be thin enough to expand readily, but is supported by the lead to prevent inward deformation. Without the lead there, there is more possibility to deform inward thus creating a more solid-like projectile. My 2 cents only... _BAxter

Base-forward exits, blown off petals making cylindrical solids out of the softs, or magazine battering hardening the hollowpoint: It will take some careful necropsy observations to decide each case if possible at all to tell.

The North Fork soft (bonded lead nose core and grooved solid copper shank) is still the best soft in the universe, to prevent small exit holes, as they almost never exit, usually are found under the offside hide, nicely mushroomed. They often blow a spray of lung tissue and blood out of a large entrance hole, so explosive in opening are they.

I still like the TSX and GSC HV for many applications, especially with high velocity and long range application.

.

I have never shot or loaded the Barnes TSX. However, I did pickup a box to load for shooting at long range paper this week. From what I see in the design, I have to agree with 500grains, in that the pencil point design is going to have problems expanding, if it don't hit something solid like shoulder bone. The TSX would probably be a lot better if it was deisigned for a poly tip to aide expansion on soft tissue.

quote:

he TSX would probably be a lot better if it was deisigned for a poly tip to aide expansion on soft tissue.

thus the MRX

Until I discovered the North Fork bullets I shot many Barnes X and XLC, those were the days before the TSX. They were either very good, bad or ugly. One rifle that shot them well for me was my .340 Wby. I loaded a 225 XLC (the blue coated bullet) to 3150 fps and used it several years on Elk. I never recovered one, but performance wise when they hit an animal they were awesome. One hunt in particular brought home how they performed for me. ----- I was hunting in the Colorado high country on the first day of the late season, temp that morning was 20 below and the high that day was 2 below. I didn't get my shot until 4:00 that afternoon and it was at 250 yards up a steep mountain. I had a perfect broadside shot at a big 5 X 5 with him standing with his right side toward me. I shot and when the snow settled so I could see ( I was under an oak shrub and cought all the snow on the mountain after the shot) the Bull was standing with his left shoulder to me. I fired again immediately and down he went in a clump. By the time I got up to him it was dark and I dressed him out by flashlight, noting two entrance holes and exit holes within three inchs of each other on both sides. The next day in bright sunlight my son was helping me skin the Bull and found two blue petals from the XLC in the hide around one of the exit holes. I was greatly impressed that the bullet had done it's work perfectly and marveled at the damage the petals must have done before shearing off prior to exiting. ----- I had very good success with those Barnes bullets (when they shot well in my rifle) on many animals. Sometimes a small exit hole belays the damage done inside the animal. Those hides are very pliable and perhaps reveals a smaller hole than meets the untrained eye. Good shootig.

It is always interesting to read what a variety of people assume from looking at a bullets design. This is directed at no one in particular, just a general observation.

I have begun to read such "discussions" more for their entertainment value than their educational value. A healthy dose of skepticism seems a good prescription....

Bill

JJ,

Here is the ENTRANCE wound of a 458 caliber 450 grain North Fork soft bonded point on a 56 inch kudu at 200 yards.

Exit looked just the same!

Not great shot but what a bullet!

Blood trail a blind man could follow.



Andy

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The North Fork soft (bonded lead nose core and grooved solid copper shank) is still the best soft in the universe, to prevent small exit holes, as they almost never exit, usually are found under the offside hide, nicely mushroomed.

You undoubtedly have more North Fork experience than I do, but of the couple of animals I took with them all shots exited.

Alf,
Yes, flash X-ray cinematography would be the only way to go on that TSX analysis.

Andy (and Mike Brady), yeah, you too Charles:

I was thinking 1500 pound bovines with heavy shoulder bone strikes from .423/380gr North Fork SP's at 2500 fps impact. Those would rarely exit the offside.

Of course something as puny as the largest kudu bull would offer very little resistance to a .458/450gr North Fork SP at similar velocity. Exit on a broadside? Yes. As illustrated.

Ditto the .308 heavies, etc., by North Fork on 500 pound and lesser game, at maybe even higher velocity: Broadside exits.

Yep, best softpoint hunting rifle bullet in the known universe: NF, No Funny, North Fork.

There ya go. I have sorted out my apples and oranges.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:
The North Fork soft (bonded lead nose core and grooved solid copper shank) is still the best soft in the universe, to prevent small exit holes, as they almost never exit, usually are found under the offside hide, nicely mushroomed.

I guess I also had a different experience with the North Forks. While these are excellent bullets and I strongly recommend them I shot at least a dozen animals with them mostly 9.3's and recovered exactly one bullet, from a blue wildebeest, that was an angled shot that ended up in the spine. I did see Ray Atkinson shoot several buffalo with 416 NF's that did stick in the hide of the off side. Another friend making a similar shot had a pass through. Great bullets though.

quote:

I was thinking 1500 pound bovines with heavy shoulder bone strikes from .423/380gr North Fork SP's at 2500 fps impact. Those would rarely exit the offside.

Well when you put it that way, who can argue? Of course you could go to the cup point solid in that application...

Apologies for the

JJHACK,

I think you have indeed uncovered the culprit of the "Bore-Size" exits. Good find. Way to persist on that subject, BRAVO!

I'm still nervous about MRX's flipping and exiting rear end first. I'll let someone else do Barne's field testing for me.

It's a very good hypothesis. I have to say I've often thought of the negative result tip deformation might have on the aerodynamics of a bullet, but have never given thought to its ability to open up or not. Kudos!

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
JJHACK,

I think you have indeed uncovered the culprit of the "Bore-Size" exits. Good find. Way to persist on that subject, BRAVO!

I'm still nervous about MRX's flipping and exiting rear end first. I'll let someone else do Barne's field testing for me.

There was a topic on this a year ago and the subject of X type monolithic not opening due to damage was covered.

"Was the bullets meplat in its normal condition when it hit the warthog? What I mean is that I have a theory that the monolitic hollow point can close in from some damage in handling and then not expand at all! For instance if the warthog shot was the second shot from the rifle did the bullets nose get damaged in the magazine from recoil?

If a X bullets nose is flattened or turned in then it will not bust open like a lead filled bullet will it? Thats why I look forward to a plastic meplat in a X to protect the hollow point and to keep it open.

Another thing is that the X's do not expand to as large a diameter even if the petals stay on. Thus they can't be as good for a broadside lung shot. On the other hand your carring solids that expand some as I mentioned before and thats an insurance that one may want."

Link to quote above

What about other bullets not opening up due to magazine and recoil-caused nose damage? Nosler Partitions, for instance?

Jim, very interesting thread. I believe you are on to something. Will you be doing more testing in S. A. next year? It would be enlightening to shoot some deformed TSX bullets into ballistic gelatin covered with cowhide and see if it can be duplicated. Have you thought about sending your results to Barnes? I wonder what their explanation of your bullets results would be?

well if those bullet keeps up, its still a very good reason to use Swifts, TBBC, Rhino Solid Shank instead of the TSX.

Don't forget other fine offerings, such as Woodleigh, North Fork and GS Custom. Also, Hornady Interbond and Nosler Accubond.

Roger, I've had some good conversations with the folks at Barnes. They will be using some of my experiecne and gathered data for future advertising and information on their website.