The photo below shows a 286grn Barnes X from 9.3x62mm which was recovered from the spine of a Warthog after it was headshot from about 70 paces.

I estimate that the muzzle velocity of this load is 2400fps and the recovered bullet has a retained weight of 237grains.

As you can see from the picture, the bullet has lost three of its four petals.

Would you consider this a "failure" ?

Regards,

Pete

No.

I would say "no" as it retained most of it's weight. Barnes do shed petals when hitting bone but they account for only a small portion of the total weight. I have yet to recover an "X" bullet from buffalo (4)of my 458 Lott, but found one in the neck vertabrae of a small bear that was shot through the head and straight up the spine. No petals left of course. I doubt many lead core bullets would do so well. Good shoot'n.

To me the bullet got the game so it did not fail at all. When we pick a bullet it flies out of the barrel and who knows what will happen to it? The animal might turn this way or that at the last minute and the bullet might hit some dense bone.

Also some dangerous animal may come at you on that safari and you had a solid in your chamber that expands a little.

What was the result on the rest of the game you got? Some of those trophys were really big animals.

I found that the petals blow off of X's by testing them in water filled cartons. Also that they don't expand to much of a diameter at all. It's good to have the X's as an alternative. I might try them again if they come out with a plastic tipped version.

.277 140 grain Barnes X from .270 Weatherby (Weatherby factory loads). The one one the left was fired into a sandy river bank at about 100 yards. The one on the right came from a Gemsbok -- I believe it went through both shoulder blades, breaking the spine, before lodging just under the off-side skin. I have not been able to weigh it.



I have seen them shed petals in feral hogs as well. In no case did they fail to do what they were supposed to do. I may have asked too much from them on occasion.

I do really like the North Fork softs -- good expansion and penetration -- but the X also seems to work well for me.

Pete,

This is classic Barnes X performance, and one could not wish for anything better.

Gents,

This was the only bullet recovered on a variety of game from warthog to kudu. Most were taken at less than ideal angle's but the bullets still exited. The only other "strange" result I got was another warthog. The shot was a relatively close quartering one which again exited, but the animal went about 250 yards before being found. There was virtually no blood trail just a few specs after 80 yards. On examination the exit wound looked pretty much the same as the entrance wound.

One of the complaints I often hear about Barnes X is they "pencil" through game, hence my post..I realise two incidents is not enough to judge a bullet by, but it just leaves a nagging questions. On the other animals, it performed very well leaving a really good blood trail. These bullets also group well in my 9.3x62 hovering just under the 1" if I do my part...

Regards,

Pete

If the animal died it wasn't a failure.

I use Barnes bullets for almost everything. It's not the only bullet I use, just my favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Gents,

This was the only bullet recovered on a variety of game from warthog to kudu. Most were taken at less than ideal angle's but the bullets still exited. The only other "strange" result I got was another warthog. The shot was a relatively close quartering one which again exited, but the animal went about 250 yards before being found. There was virtually no blood trail just a few specs after 80 yards. On examination the exit wound looked pretty much the same as the entrance wound.

One of the complaints I often hear about Barnes X is they "pencil" through game, hence my post..I realise two incidents is not enough to judge a bullet by, but it just leaves a nagging questions. On the other animals, it performed very well leaving a really good blood trail. These bullets also group well in my 9.3x62 hovering just under the 1" if I do my part...

Regards,

Pete

Was the bullets meplat in its normal condition when it hit the warthog? What I mean is that I have a theory that the monolitic hollow point can close in from some damage in handling and then not expand at all! For instance if the warthog shot was the second shot from the rifle did the bullets nose get damaged in the magazine from recoil?

If a X bullets nose is flattened or turned in then it will not bust open like a lead filled bullet will it? Thats why I look forward to a plastic meplat in a X to protect the hollow point and to keep it open.

Another thing is that the X's do not expand to as large a diameter even if the petals stay on. Thus they can't be as good for a broadside lung shot. On the other hand your carring solids that expand some as I mentioned before and thats an insurance that one may want.

Very acceptable performance...

I do respectfully take exception to the old song that if the bullet kills the animal its not a failure, I have seen many failed bullets kill animals, I have seen bullet fly apart into tiny pieces of shards of copper and lead that killed instantlty, I have seen bullets come apart and lead seperate from the jacket that killed the animal...so the fact that it killed is just it failed...

The point is and it happens, the next bullet out of that batch leaves a wounded crippled animal in the bush because of the same problem..

Anytime I get a bullet failure, kill or no kill I consider that a warning sign of things to come, so the guy at Sierra that so blatently stated "Well, at what point did the bullet fail to kill" is a simpleton IMO...Its a worn out cleche that only shows a lack of knowledge..

Several ballisticians and engineers have commented on the fact that if a Barnes-X bullet is deflected at all in its path and turns, the petals may actually "catch" and cause a parachute effect to the bullet. This reversal may be what causes the petals to break off, and may be the ultimate reason the bullet is recovered. Most X's just open up 2x-3x their diameter and make a great exit and bloodtrail.

Pete, good post. My question to you. After seeing how the bullet performed on all your African game, would you feel confident choosing the same bullet in you 9,3 on your next safari? Do you feel that it is the best bullet you can hunt with? My question stems from the fact that I am getting a 9,3 for Sarena and I am curious as what might be the best available bullet. I have no experience with Barnes. I was pleasantly surprised with the 270 grain Swift A frame. I prefer complete penetration and I got that with everything except zebra and the warthog I shot up the ass on the second shot. Alas, most of my big game experience is shooting skinny whitetails with cheap Hornadys.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
If the animal died it wasn't a failure.

D99,

I don't buy that view; I think its a bit too simplistic.

That the second warthog for instance.

I find the lack of blood trail and the small exit wound "worrying" especially as the animal went for 250yard before dropping; it could so easily have been lost..

Due to the reaction of the warthog and the initial lack of blood, both the Tracker and I thought I had missed it, and it was only due to the persistance of the PH that we found some blood at around 80 yards..At that point of course I thought I had wounded the poor beast and was wishing it had been a clean miss...However after more persistance from the PH, he eventually found the animal. It was stone dead and the shot placement was good.

So what, if anything, went wrong? As the bullet was not recovered in this case I can only speculate about its performance from the appearance of the two wounds...The Warthog was aware he was being stalked and was alternating between standing in thick cover and trying to slink away. From that I conclude that he was probably "pumped up" and that obviously contributes to how far he would run...In this case there are too many variables to draw any hard conclusions but i do wonder if a different weight or style of bullet might not have done better?

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:
Pete, good post. My question to you. After seeing how the bullet performed on all your African game, would you feel confident choosing the same bullet in you 9,3 on your next safari? Do you feel that it is the best bullet you can hunt with? My question stems from the fact that I am getting a 9,3 for Sarena and I am curious as what might be the best available bullet. I have no experience with Barnes. I was pleasantly surprised with the 270 grain Swift A frame. I prefer complete penetration and I got that with everything except zebra and the warthog I shot up the ass on the second shot. Alas, most of my big game experience is shooting skinny whitetails with cheap Hornadys.

Roger,

I never saw your post before making my last reply but I think we are both thinking the same thing ie "Is there a better bullet?" In all honesty, I simply don't know...in my situation I have the added difficulty in that any type of 9.3mm is not widely available in the UK..

Would I use the Barnes X again? Yes...I might switch to a 250grain for smaller bodied animals and I would like to try the new TSX bullets now available for 9.3..Having said that I would also consider an alternative...


Question for you now...you say that you are happy with the 270grn Swifts out of your .375H&H, but what about that second warthog? It took two (or three?) well placed shots, but still went off like it had the devil on its tail! Hell, maybe its just JJ's warthogs are extra tough!

regards,

Pete

Savage,

Thats an interesting theory about damage to the bullet tip. In my case, I don't know, but I can see the logic for your reasoning.

Does anybody know if the new TSX has a plastic tip?

Regards,

Pete

The video is almost done. As soon as I get it completed you will get a copy. You can see it for yourself on a much larger screen. The first shot was just a little far back. It would have killed him but I don't have any idea how far he would have gone. It was a good thing I got the second bullet in him. He still was very impressive, though. I don't think I would have got up myself after taking two hits like that. The third one just grazed him.

Pete

Since you're apprehensive about the Barnes bullets, why don't you try some Northforks? I don't know how hassle it is to get some, but it may definitely be worth it.

475guy,

I have heard nothing but good things about the Northforks, but unless a British dealer starts importing them, it really would be too much of a hassle to get them..

Savage99,

With regards to the plastic tips, it looks like Laupa had the same idea.

Their NATURALIS line which includes a 9.3, is advertised as "lead free" although it does not state if that means solid copper..









These images are from the Laupa website and are of bullets recovered from game...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

You did well in spotting that the Lapua bullet has a plastic insert. I had not seen that in this test but it's there.



http://www.jegeren.net/tester_kuler.htm

I like the plastic meplats for the good BC's that they preserve. Perhaps someone will pass this along to Barnes and other mfgs with copper noses.

As D99 said NO Failure if the animal died.

I used to tell others that complained about balistic tips that blew up in deer vitals and little bullet was recovered. AT WHAT POINT DURING THE ANIMALS DEATH DID THE BULLET FAIL??

I use Barnes X and solids exclusivly in Africa and I have never had a "failure" I have only recovered 2, both from the same buff. 1 500 g 458 that went theough both shoulders at 60 yards
and was under the skin on the other side and a solid 500 g that was shot up his ass as he ran away, this one broke his pelvis and was found in the neck under the skin. The X bullet weiged 499.5 Grains and the solid weiged exactly 500 grains after I washed off the dried blood, except for the rifling marks it could of been reloaded.

The question to ask is would any other expanding bullet have penetrated as deeply on this hit, as described. I think not. The loss of petals when squarely impacting onside bone is routine for the "X".

Early on, the openings on some the "X" bullets was indeed too small. Brush and/or glancing hits on heavy bone would occasionally "close" the tip and cause petals to roll to one side. Barnes addressed the problem via larger and squarer cavities.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Very acceptable performance...

I do respectfully take exception to the old song that if the bullet kills the animal its not a failure, I have seen many failed bullets kill animals, I have seen bullet fly apart into tiny pieces of shards of copper and lead that killed instantlty, I have seen bullets come apart and lead seperate from the jacket that killed the animal...so the fact that it killed is just it failed...

The point is and it happens, the next bullet out of that batch leaves a wounded crippled animal in the bush because of the same problem..

Anytime I get a bullet failure, kill or no kill I consider that a warning sign of things to come, so the guy at Sierra that so blatently stated "Well, at what point did the bullet fail to kill" is a simpleton IMO...Its a worn out cleche that only shows a lack of knowledge..

Ray, I agree with you on this. Unfortunately, I believe it was Jack O'Connor who first coined the phrase, "at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail".

RAC,
I have found the 286 gr. Nosler and the 286 gr. Northforks to be the best bullets I have used on game in the 9.3x62...I have shot a lot of big game with both..If I want penitration I use the Nosler, if I want fast expansion and I use the Northfork..I have also used the 320 gr. Woodleigh soft or solids in my 26" barrel with a warm load at a tad over 2350 FPS for Buffalo with excellent results..

Gee Wiz. Jack O'Connor is wrong, and Ray Atkinson is right. What's the world coming to?

That, in all seriousness, doesn't surprise me at all! Ray is one guy here whose posts I always read and usually more than once, another is Allen Day. This is due to the lack of bullshit and hands-on experience that both of these guys employ in their posts. JO'C was a very good writer, but, his actual big game experience was mostly as a "dude" and I used to work with guys who guided him, Warren Page and other firearms journalists. Frankly, as I got older and gained more bush/gun experience, I came to prefer Elmer and Ray kinda reminds me of him....he ain't afraid to tell it as he sees it, a good thing, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Savage,

Thats an interesting theory about damage to the bullet tip. In my case, I don't know, but I can see the logic for your reasoning.

Does anybody know if the new TSX has a plastic tip?

Regards,

Pete

Pete the TSX does not have a plastic tip.

I always wondered if pouring some wax into the hollowpoint of an X would make it expand better, or make it fail to expand at all!

Frankly,though the X bullets that I have sen used have always performed well. (Including dozens of kills Saeed has logged with an X bullet)

I often wonder abotuthe 'pencil hole' exit wound, too.

Nosler Partitoons often give such an exit, as they have lost thier front end, made much damage, and the shank continued on.

So I wonder if losign the petals is a big deal, as they are secondary projectiles, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Richards:
Gee Wiz. Jack O'Connor is wrong, and Ray Atkinson is right. What's the world coming to?

Yeah, it's bad..Real bad....

quote:

Originally posted by Gatehouse:
So I wonder if losign the petals is a big deal, as they are secondary projectiles, too.

That is the philosophy behind the development of the French GPA bullet: it is a monolithic hollow point designed to loose its four petals the moment any sort of fluid gets into the channel.
The shank may go through and the petals sure do a lot of damage!

B.Martins

Nope

I have shot a few Barnes X bullets into game and the only ones I recoverd looking like yours was in a bank of sand, seems it did a great job, I will never think twice about using it on any game.

Flip

I have used barnes x and solids for many hunts and they are very rarely recoverd but all the ones i have recovered have looked just like barnes said they should. I like to drop a little bullet weight to get them shorter and faster. they seem to open better with more speed. but they all seem to have the desired effect.

Steve, and Gatehouse,
Well I thought I had the right to disagree with Jack O'Connor..Didn't know he walked on water..However I did know the man, actually hunted with him, and had a lot of respect for him. Sorry you are so offended.

I also don't think your bullet failed!

Last year in Tanzania I shot a duiker (probably weighed about 25 lbs.) at about 50 yards with a 400 grain Barnes X from a 416 Rigby (MV=2450fps). I shot the little guy in the butt and the bullet had fully expanded in the first 7" (the rear 7" of the duiker was ripped open from the rapid bullet expansion) and punched a X-shaped exit hole through the center of it's chest (total length of the duiker from end to end was about 18-20 inches). On a lung shot on a hartebeest at about 85 yards there was part of the lung hanging out the exit hole. He crow hopped about 6 feet and went down. etc. etc. etc. I like the Barnes X especially in the bigger calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Richards:
Gee Wiz. Jack O'Connor is wrong, and Ray Atkinson is right. What's the world coming to?

Steve, there is one thing you need to look very closely at! Jack O'Connor was simply a man, not a GOD. There are many things Ray is right about that conflict with things O'Connor said! In the first place Ray probably has ten times the African experience that O'Conner had. Though O'Connor was a great man with the written word, he didn't know as much as folks give him credt for knowing, and was a snobb, to the endth degree.

That said, I agree with you in one respect! The bullet in question here did not fail "TO KILL", but it did fail what the manufacturor intended it to do! This is what Ray is trying to get accross. The petels are not supposed to come off on just any shot on game. This bullet, however, hit a pritty hard target. If I remember right, the bullet hit a warthog in the head, completely penetrating the skull, then continued down the spinal column to where it was found. Depending on how far the bullet traveled after it got into the spinal column, it tore up a lot of bone! It would stand to reason that it might shed one or two of it's petels, especially if it came out of a hot stepping rifle. So I guess what I'm saying is, I agree with both of you in this case, as long as we leave O'Connor out of the converstion!

The only thing I have ever recovered with a Barnes is 1 petal in a hog. That bullet is definately NOT a failure.

riodot