Gentlemen (and ladies),

How much more recoil does the 458 have over the 416? I'm not particularly recoil sensitive but I do want to be able to make an accurate 2nd shot. Oh - the quarry will be buffalo.

Thanks in advance.

The Lott recoils a bit more than the 416. Unless you boost the 416,s velocity with 400 gr bullets.....If you lean into er the Lott can be handled relitavly fast but the 416 will be faster for the 2nd shot ....Whuch brings up a question from me ......How many fewer one shot kills will a person have with the lott over the rigby or rem mag.... Is it really worth the extra guff ..

You don't need a 416 much less a Lott to kill buff. So it probably just boils down to what toy you want. You could hunt a bunch of buff without ever having to worry about recoil recovery.

I own a 416 Rigby RSM that I shoot loaded to 2400 fps and have shot the Lott version and a CZ. Recoil difference is substantial. Will, what do you need to kill a buffalo? within the realm of logic of course jorge

Here is a link to the a Recoil Chart contained in the FAQs on this site:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I own a 416 Rigby RSM that I shoot loaded to 2400 fps and have shot the Lott version and a CZ. Recoil difference is substantial. Will, what do you need to kill a buffalo? within the realm of logic of course jorge

I've done quite well with the lowly .375

With about a 40%+ increase in recoil to go to the Lott, is it worth it?

That chart was very interesting. According to it, the 470 NE has less recoil than a 416 Rigby. Is that ture?

The lott has very much more felt recoil than a rigby.

in comparing rounds and recoil, the SAME stock design is assumed.

a 470 NE is generally in a high drop double rifle, the rigby in a lesser drop bolt gun.

the rigby has MUCH less felt recoil, due to less drop.

further, the less powder you spend to get to the same velocity is less felt recoil

jeffe

Although not particularly recoil sensitive, I must admit that the .416 Rigby is about the limit of my tolerance for recoil. If the 458 Lott is really 40% more, than it is not an option for me.

Sure, we can "ALL" tolerate something more on occassion, but then you won't practice, and adversion to recoil begins to do funny things to bullet placement over time. I always opt for bullet placement over sheer energy. I do own a couple .416's, and yet agree with Will. I used a .375 on buff, and felt it was plenty.

Good hunting,

Bill

Here is a recoil energy calculator that is more specific.

http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

It doesn't account for stock shape but will get you pretty close.

FWIW, last September I fired nine times, reloaded twice and dropped two nice bulls in about 60 seconds using my .458 Lott.

The recoil can be mastered. Just practice, practice. Something you'll want to do no matter what caliber you carry.

Incidentally, all shots were good shots. The first shot on each was straight through the heart. The others were right on the shoulder. They just didn't go down right away.

Caretaker: The .416 Rigby is a classic cartridge and there is some nostalgic basis for its use. Recoil is very manageable and the cartridge is very effective,giving the comforting margin of increased power on those less than ideal shots that may occur when armed with the minimum calibre. As to the .458 Lott it is a good one. After all this is a reloading site, shoot 500 grain bullets at 2150F/S and enjoy reduced recoil and exceptional performance.

O K .. So I,m going to poke the Hornets nest one more time ............................ I am not in any way meaning anything derogatory to anyone nor am I picking on anyones favorite cartridge just to be doing so ........Shurley on this forum there is someone who has somekind of answer that makes sense............If it takes 9 shots to kill 2 cape buffalo then why in the world would I want that amount of recoil... Would any one say that the same 2 cape buffalo would have needed 10 or 11 416,s to kill them .. If they would have fell to the same # of shots then why bother with the bigger rifle .........But that is not my question ... My question is { what cartridge will ,, 90 % of the time knock a cape buffalo off his feet and keep him down with a chest shot . Weather the heart is full of blood or not.....wether his adreniline is up or not ...........In short ,,,What works... Or is there None .. I would imagine something like the 12 ga. F H with a 2000 gr bonded core expanding bullet @ 2400 fps or so would but is there anything shy of that that has proven itself ......Many people want to dismis trying to quantify killing ability.......It,s like people bragging up the 06 ,, and then hearing it took them 6 shots to kill a 5-600 lb animal ,,.. Need a bigger gun ...... The question I,m putting out is ,,, How Big ,???????????

Guys,

Thanks for all of the input. I have some time to decide on which calibre that that I'll use. Though I'm after buff, I would like the option of taking larger game if possible. I spoke with Kevin Robertson at the Dallas Safari Convention ( got a book as well) and he recommended something larger than the .375 if I thought that one day I may consider an elephant. I don't want to invest alot of monies in large bores and I kind of created a short list with the .416 and the .458 being the possible selections. It sounds as though both will do. Now to decide on a rifle within budget.....I know, a new can of worms.

Caretaker,

A 500 grain bullet kicks alot more than a 400 grain bullet, regardless of velocity. This holds true for all practical purposes from .458 win mag and up.

As our host Saeed has demonstrated with 100 some buffalo kills, a 375 with premium bullet, even the un-politically correct high velocity .375, will do the job!

The larger bores come into play in my opinion, when you are hunting elephant and buffalo on the same day.

Thats when you start looking at a 416, 458, 475, and 510.

Or you could just buy Wills book.

Good place to start!

PS A medium expansion bonded partition or solid base configuration premium bullet like the Swift or North Fork in .375 expands to just 75 caliber. You still have a lot of penetration with that. Barnes X that blows off front end has even more.

Andy

I have RSMs in 416 Rigby and 458 Lott. If you stick to the lower "original" Rigby loadings the Rigby will have less felt recoil than the Lott. If you up the Rigby loadings to a 400gr at 2500+ the playing field levels! I don't think that the statement of a Lott has 40% more recoil than a Rigby has legs unless comparing wildly differing loads.

If you shoot high Rigby loads you are close if not at a Lott level, IMO. If you can handle a 416 at decent velocity (400gr at 2400) the Lott will be workable. I love my Lott RSM. Shoot 405 Rems for varmints and 500grs for rocks and the real deal. I really push the Lott for handloaders looking for a big bore. It is as nice or nasty as you make it

That is really the beauty of the bigger bores. You can tailor a nice everyday plinking load that shoots easier than a 300 Win (or lower if you wish) and also work up a thumper that gives you about all the power you need or crave.

John

Quote by caretaker:
"I don't want to invest alot of monies in large bores and I kind of created a short list with the .416 and the .458 being the possible selections. "

I thought that once, too.

Pegleg,

That's so true!

I started w a 300 weatherby, then .338 winchester, 375 then 375 improved, then 416, 460 GA, 450 Dakota.

Now I want a 500 Nitro Hambrusch like 500 grains has!

It is a disease not a necessity.

Caretaker, take a look at Wills link to the recoil calculator on Huntamerica. (Best thing about the site I might add).

If you plug in 8.5, 9, or 10 pound rifle weight the 458 Lott at realistic 2250 fps is pounding you alot more than any std 400 at 2400 fps Rigby load.

And thats how it feels to me.

I cannot shoot a 416 prone. I can shoot a 375 improved. I would not even think about it with a Lott!

The late George Hoffman before he passed away strongly suggested I start my African experience with a 416 and 1.5 x 5 Luepold scope, using 400 grain Swift bullets.

And from someone with alot more experience than me!

(He used FMJ on elephant only).

While I trust the 375 improved, that is still good advice.

You are more likely to connect with a scoped 416 when shooting PG or baboon than a Lott.

More likely than not the 416 will not be your last "big bore." But I would start there and see if you still just have to have a 458.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Caretaker,

A 500 grain bullet kicks alot more than a 400 grain bullet, regardless of velocity. This holds true for all practical purposes from .458 win mag and up.


Andy

not always... a 400 at 2400 is about the same recoil as a 500 at 2150 ... so a nominal 416 rem/rigby compared to a lott, the lott kicks more ....

but in most cases, a 416 rigby kicks more than a 458 WIN ... the rigby generally has 30gr more powder, which adds to recoil.

jeffe

Caretaker, I think the new 375 Ruger would fill your bill perfectly. It will not recoil like one of the big 40's or 45's. It will run a time proven 375 diameter bullet faster than the 375 HH, which will give you better preformance than the HH at less recoil that the bigger stuff.

Plus you are looking at getting into the 375 Ruger for around 800.00, it won't break the bank. Whats not to like ................JJ

Jeffe,

I guess that depends on how fast you push either the Rigby or .458.

From the Swift manual:

500 at 2114 using 72 gr 4895 = 58 foot pounds and 19 recoil velocity in 9.25 pound rifle.

400 grain at 2403 fps with 99.5 grains RL-22 or 4831 = 63/20.

In this case you are correct even though most people will tell you the winchester kicks more.

You can drop down to 88 grains H4350, Swifts recommended load, and get 2368 fps and 57/19 which is a hair less than .458 winchester and both are well under a full power Lott.

You can also drop down to just 77 grains powder in a 416 Remington and reduce recoil to less than 458 Winchester.

For some reason I cannot tell the difference between a Rigby and a Remington despite 20 grains difference in powder.

Neither can I tell difference between 460 GA and 450 Dakota at similar velocities despite using 10 - 15 grains more powder.

Yet I can tell the difference between using a slow and medium burning powder in a .300, .338 , or .375.

Maybe it has something to do with the expansion ratio of larger bores.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Andy

I shoot both and don't notice much difference. Both give me headaches.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Both give me headaches.

Now here is an honest man!

The .416 Rigby is plenty for me. My .375 has more felt recoil because the stock has more drop.

But I do my practice with lighter calibers. I once shot 70 rounds in five days with the .416 and that left me a bit shy for awhile...

I´ve shot Boha´s .500 Jeffrey and it was an experience to do it but that is just to much gun for me...

Buy a 404 Jeffery

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

I would go along with Andy ,,, The 416,s really are nice ....I have not had a Rigby yet but probably will one day...Tho it will probably get shot about a hundred times and be rebarreled to 416 Whby ......Charlie Askins made up probably the best one ,,then Dakota came along with it and made it a little better....but The 416,s are nice and with the 350 gr Speer hotcore SP.They arn,t expensive too shoot .... .................................

OK - It had to get asked sooner or later.... What about the 458 Win Mag? That's what I've been thinking about using (since I own one)

Loaded with the best premium bullets to peak velocities and well placed shots wouldn't it be sufficient for buffalo and elephant? I was thinking about having mine blown out to a Lott (mine is a M70 Safari Express) but may just opt to go to a Dakota 76...

Blowing out your .458 win to .458 Lott may not be as easy as it seems THE MAGAZINE NEEDS TO HOLD ADDITIONAL ROUNDS or you will have a singleshot. The .458 has been a standard that others have been measured against for 50 years.Taking your .458 win afield is certainly no disgrace. I shoot my Lott @ .458 Win. mag velocities for multiple reasons

Gumboot, why would you want to rechamber to Weatherby? I can't figure. You can load the Rigby version to near the Weatherby velocities and I will bet you that it will give you all the recoil you want. Mine surely does. Loaded to average velocitiess I decided to fire mine using open sites and standing when I first got it. It turned me 90 degrees in spite of my insistence that I stay straight. I did get used to it, put a scope, On/off brake, and a mercury tube in the stock made it so I could stand it from the bench. It really isn't too bad if you use the light NF bullets. Still loading 400 gr SAF's at 2530 is plenty of recoil for me. I think if you plan to hand load you can warm it up until you say uncle before you get into true Weatherby velocities. Good hunting.

Scott ,, depending on who replies,, The 458 win is either good or , you should be banished for even mentioning it....I have used mine here for most of my hunting for about 10 years and other 458,s for 10 years befor that...,, I think that Stuntpilot2 had the most interesting post possibly to date here.....He went on safari ,,, TSA stole his , solids.. He did a complete Big Five Safari useing expanding bullets.. His were 450 gr X bullets.from his 460 Whby.....A 458 win mag with a 400 gr mono metal bullet@ about 2400 fps is a major killing machine.....Nowadays we have so many options that if you have a long enuf action ,, why not turn your rifle into a Lott.....if it already has a 458 barrel...........And if you are haveing a new rifle built the lott just gives you more options ...But if you are haveing a new rifle built why not have a 460 made up ...

There are no flys on a properly loaded 458wm. Anyone who claims otherwise just has no experience with it.

JPK

As mentioned by GarBy, there is always the option of going to a .423 diameter 400 grain bullet from 2150 to 2300 fps. You will have to live with the nostalgia of an auld English Cartridge: the 404 Jeffery. At 2150 fps you are in the same recoil league as a .375 H&H. It's fun to shoot. Have you read a lot of articles about the 404 failing to do what it is intended to do?

I must agree that rifle design and weight has a great deal to do with "felt" recoil. I have a 458 lott and I have shot my buddies custom 416 rigby the latter being a much lighter slimmer gun. I can shoot my lott all day but just a couple shots with the rigby and I'm done.
Regarding the 375 on Buff. it's definately adequate,but do you want adequate or do you want real preformance? For real preformance you need to start with a 40cal. 400 gr. bullet!!!

caretaker,
it would pay to try and find someone at your local range that has some big bores that you could try. There may even be someone on ar that lives near you that could take you out for a shot.

I have a CZ550 with a Brockman stock in the 416 Rigby. The 400gr Barnes banded solids easily do 2400 fps and I do not feel the need to hot rod them. They hit like a hammer.

I have a CZ550 with a Brockman stock in 458 Win mag. The Barnes 500gr banded solids give me 2140 fps and they also hit really hard.

The Rigby has a little sharper jab than the 458, but they are, to me, about the same as far as recoil goes. Both rifles/rounds perform very, very well on buffalo.

I have shot a CZ and Ruger RSM,both in the 458
Lott with 500gr Barnes banded solids at 2400fps. There is a significant increase in recoil that I find abusive, and feel the increase in performance is not worth the punishment you take. I think the Lott, shot from awkward, improvised field positions is going to really hammer you.

Caveat: all of this is very subjective and depends on how you handle recoil, stock design, how much exprience you have with big bores, etc.
Shoot as many as you can to get some experience.
In my limited experience, you just don't know what's going to happen when you shoot a buffalo. I've seen shoulder shot bulls with a 375 run 40 yards and fall over. The next one, same shot with a 458 Lott, takes off running and absorbs multiple hits with the Lott and 458 Win mag before going down. Go figure. Good luck with your choice.

And,yes, they all give me a headache.

One of the reasons for the 460 Weatherby...I have never had a misfire with a belted cartridge that I couldn,t trace to a reload that had an oily primer or submersed in water for a while......I have had well over 20 , from rounds, that headspace on the shoulder...factory ammo..So unless I fireform my nonbelted ammo I do not use it for DG hunting....And the 460 Whby has quite a bit of history ..... I myself am not willing to say ,,,well this happens sometimes and who knows why ..The 460 whby should push a 350 gr mono metal expanding bullet to over 2900 fps.. I wonder , the affect that would have on a cape buffalo.....Or what would a 535 gr mono metal expanding bullet @ 2900 fps do to a C B when fired from a 577T REX ??or a 600 gr mono exp. @2800 fps from a 600 O K...Since a heavy bullet exits why not keep the penetration in the animal but Real violent wound channel .. Seems I,ve wandered away from the `nice safe cartridge comparison .... I think the preformance should dictate the recoil or rifle weight , cost , ect.ect.. I think the Lott is a Very good round....But I " Like " the 416 better,.. I,m kind of suprised more people don,t shoot the light for caliber mono metal expanding bullets....