The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What would you do??Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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My friend and I hunted RSA and Bots in 2007. It was our first, but not by far, our last trip to Africa! We had the time of a "lifetime"! In Feb. of 2008 we booked a hunt for late August of 2009, with the same outfitter, now a very good friend. This spring, my fiend found the "discount DG hunts on a different site". He asked me to join with him in hunting CB and then asked if our origional PH would be "pissed off". I told him "hell Yes" he would as we all are looking for our people or customers to "honor" their word. My friend then said that he could not pass up this opportunity to harvest a CB at this price. I then asked him, what price does he put on the Owner?PH that he cancelled on? After this discussion, he will hunt with the DG people for 4-5 days and ask our original outfitte to "pick him up ant the RSA - Zim border". Back to the origional question, What would you do? Honor your comitment to the Owner/PH for the entire hunt(10 days) or come in later and ask for an 2 hr. ride to be picked up and shoot a minimal amount of game? Just asking for ethics and input from the pepole who "know"! Learn from Yesterday Live in Today Live for Tomorrow! | ||
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Get a new friend. | |||
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Just have the guy do a hunt on separate days and of he wants to join up later, no problem but SA is a big place and that's probably a lot of driving. Can't expect anybody to drive to get this guy for free. This is why I could never understand why guys wanted their deposit back. Deposits are non-refundable otherwise what are they deposits for? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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What Use Enough Gun Said. A deal's a deal. Your "friends" lack of integrity will say a lot about you to your PH. | |||
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If one's honor is for sale he can't be a real friend anyway. I'm with Use enough gun, and Sharpsguy. | |||
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Add one more to the list of upholding the contract with the original PH. This ties back into the earlier question about doing hunts alone. "Friends" even close ones and even family can cause unnecessary problems when they go off on a tangent at the spur of the moment. JMO. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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and you wonder why deposits are nonrefundible. the owner and ph have an investment in every client even before that client gets to camp. In time spend getting all the little things you dont think about ready LIKE food water fuel staff paperwork and the list goes on. | |||
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Will, Deposits are not necessarily non-refundable it depends on what you negotiate. A deposit can serve two purposes: 1) Secure your reservation 2) Provide operating capital to the outfitter in advance of the hunt. Lots of deposits in business are refundable. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Ask your buddy how he would feel, if your PH friend had found a client with deeper pockets who was willing to pay higher trophy prices, and wanted to scale back your hunt to make it work. I bet we would here all over the net what a sob the PH was if that was the case. You should give your PH buddy the option to cancel the hunt if he feel its in his best interest and forfeit your deposit. If the Ph wants to go on with the hunt ,You should pay one on one rates while your buddy is gone from camp. He should come up with the difference to cover your additional cost. Any thing less someone is getting screwed. A Ph job is to make you feel like a life long friend, you may find this is not the case. If he is a real friend ask him to join you on the dg hunt and pay his daily fees. He may be willing to do that. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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This thread reminds me of another one recently..... http://forums.accuratereloadin...831076011#3831076011 As soon as the safari contract starts meaning something on the other side of the Atlantic it will start meaning something on this side. JMHO | |||
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Looks like the right thing to do is have him add on the DG hunt early or late - do it and do the original hunt in full. Or...just wait on the DG hunt til next year. It would just be terrible if they didn't honor the the contract to him, so... Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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INDY HUNTER,IMO, the PH should tell your friend if he doesn't show up at the agreed date he will forfeit his deposite, and will not be accomidated by this safari co. again! This unfortunately will leave you on the hook for a one on one hunt, and some ill will! I would get in contact with the outfitter, and explain your side of this affair, and let them know that this was not your idea. I agree with the rest here you need to find yourself a better friend!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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There are legitimate reasons to cancel a trip, but getting a cheaper last minute deal isn't one of them. Otherwise clients would book a hunt as a backup while they hoped for some last minute super deal. Some outfitters have a sliding scale for deposit refunds depending upon how close you are to the scheduled hunt. When it is within a few months of the scheduled hunt I would not expect any refund. By this time the outfitter may have already turned down other hunters that wanted that time frame. Also the deposit may not even cover out of pocket expenses the outfitter has already committed to. If my friend didn't understand this then I would not trust him/her. DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I have a feeling we aren't getting the whole story here. Tom Addleman tom@dirtnapgear.com | |||
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Oh? | |||
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the fact that you asked the question mean you already know the answer. No one can give you permission to not honor your word NRA LIFE MEMBER DU DIAMOND SPONSOR IN PERPETUITY DALLAS SAFARI CLUB LIFE MEMBER SCI FOUNDATION MEMBER | |||
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[quote]Some outfitters have a sliding scale for deposit refunds depending upon how close you are to the scheduled hunt. When it is within a few months of the scheduled hunt I would not expect any refund. By this time the outfitter may have already turned down other hunters that wanted that time frame. Also the deposit may not even cover out of pocket expenses the outfitter has already committed to.quote] Excellent comment. I don't think many folks realize that part of the whole hunt booking end of things. Whether in Afica/Canada/Alaska or here in the Lower 48, and not trying to stir up anything with any of the booking agents, but when a guide/outfitter receives a deposit and locks in dates and/or species permits, for a hunter or group of hunters, that deposit often does not cover the out of pocket expense the guide/outfitter is out getting things set up for that hunt. Because those clients have those days locked up, the guide/outfitter is at their mercy until they are in camp. If they get a wild hair to take a better deal at the last moment, the guide/outfitter may not be able to book anyone on that short a notice, but they will still have to pay staff and for the supplies they got. Why do people think those Last Minute Super Deals pop-up? Someone, for whatever reason canceled and the guide/outfitter already had everything set up to do a hunt during that period so they can keep the deposit from the original clients and cut some new clients a hell of a deal, to keep from completely losing money. JMO. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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.............Absolutely!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Very simple for us old white tops--your word is your BOND. Darrell Ragar | |||
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If your friend pays the full daily fees for the length of the original booking and the extra costs for the pick up at the Zim border, it seems to me that it would be OK. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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As am I. A deal's a deal. This reminds me of an ex friend I have who left a deer camp in the middle of the night because he didn't like the stands. Never said a word to the owner. True, the stands sucked, but this guy didn't have the cojones to look the owner in the eye and tell him what he thought. We no longer correspond. | |||
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INDY, IF YOUR "FRIEND" WON'T HONOR HIS/HER COMITMENT, WHAT ELSE WON'T THEY HONOR? | |||
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In this world your WORD is all you have. It should be honored. Global Sportsmen Outfitters, LLC Bob Cunningham 404-802-2500  | |||
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Indy Hunter, As many have already stated, you need a new friend and hunting partner. I happen to be leaving for RSA late August. And I always keep my word! | |||
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First, explain to your unethical and soon to be former friend that you will handle it. Tell him that he is liable for the full amount of the daily rate for the entire safari, but if he will let you do your stuff, you may be able to get him off with the mere loss of his deposit. Then explain to the outfitter that your friend has died unexpectedly, but expressed, as his last wish, that you and a guest of your choice should enjoy the safari that poor health denied him, and that your guest should be credited with the full amount of the decedent's deposit. The outfitter will, of course, accept. Then tell your former friend that you have succeeded in getting him off the hook for the full contract amount, and that the outfitter will settle for the deposit only. Then invite a new, and better, friend to take advantage of a discounted hunt with you.  If that doesn't work, then tell your former friend that he is a skunk, and will have to fend with other friends or for himself.   Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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You probably can't convince your buddy not to do whatever he's decided to do and there's a few factors in this that may well affect your hunt. Assuming you booked with a professional outfit, all should be covered in your contract. If it's not covered in the contract, then learn from your mistake and maybe you should consider booking with a company that offers a proper contract next time. For example, if the safari company are picking you up (etc) from the airport, then they'll have split that cost between you, if your buddy isn't coming now, then you may well be faced with his half of that cost. (Hope there's no charter involved!) Then if you were planning to hunt 2x1 and will now now hunt 1x1, that also may and probably will affect your cost. If I were you, I'd consult the contract very carefully and work it out from there. It'd actually be a lot easier for all involved if your buddy had his Buff hunt before or after the hunt you have planned together. These are just some of the reasons it's vital to have a proper, comprehensive contract. All this stuff about 'my word is my bond' or 'my contract is my handshake' is just nonsense. As Sam Goldwyn said, 'a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on'  Every company has it's own version of a safari contract and some are better/more detailed than others but you might find these links useful: http://www.shakariconnection.com/hunt-contract.html http://www.shakariconnection.c...ellation-policy.html http://www.shakariconnection.c.../sample-contract.pdf Hope that helps! | |||
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Excellent suggestions and thoughts Shakari. Too many people, whether it is a Safari to Africa, a Brown Bear hunt in Alaska, or a Guided Elk hunt in Colorado, allow themselves to get too "Caught Up' in the anticipation of the hunt, to take the time to read and understand ALL of the information the guide/outfitter/PH/booking agent is sending them, and making sure they are aware of All aspects of what they are signing up for. Most folks would not buy a new car or a house or even a new gun that way, yet they will spend hundreds/thousands of dollars without being totally cognisent of what they are getting into. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorseconsulting, That's exactly why we built the shakariconnection.com website. You wouldn't believe the tales of woe we've heard over the years from people who hadn't done their research properly before booking hunts with various fly by nights. Some were just funny, but some not quite so funny. One of the oddest was a bunch of guys we met in Johannesburg International. All they had was a single grubby piece of paper with a time, date and the word Dar written on it. There were about 4 in the group and they'd all booked 21 day safaris......... turned out they'd not only flown to the wrong airport but also to the wrong country.............. Luckily we were able to get them booked to Dar and into the Seacliff etc. Never did find out what happened to them though. All that said, we give our clients no end of info, including a detailed contract, copy of our book and a very detailed travel itinerary Iin both hard copy and emailed copy) and some of 'em are still too busy to read it.  I guess it's all part of the business though. | |||
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actually, my word is my bond; be it a handshake or a written deal. I have bought thousands of dollars worth of rifles and accessories here in the last three years on an "I'll take it" post and a follow up PM on where to send the PMO. I made my hunt to Zimbabwe last December on the same initial internet handshake with Charlton-McCallum Safaris. I have had people here who trust me based on my word, and have sent me accessories the same day I posted that I would buy what they had for sale. I get all my income over about a four or five day period at the end of the month. I have PM'ed people that I would buy an item if they were willing to hold it until month's end. I have sent the $$$PMO on the first day of the month. I am a somewhat irascible person, but I am good to do business with here and elsewhere. I would contact the PH and do the right thing. Then I would contact the dog that I thought was a reliable friend and let him know we are now ex-acquaintances. Although, the sudden death thing has merit as a "white lie". Rich DRSS | |||
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