What number of clients would you say are unprepared for the hunt in terms of the ability to shoot their rifle?

Also, I'm not sure how shooting off a solid bench rest shows a PH how well a client can shoot. Shooting in the field is much different then shooting off a bench. I was watching Boddington on Leopard and the shoot in session was off one of those VR rests. Anybody who can squeeze a trigger should be able to shoot well with that thing!

Shooting off the bench after transporting your rifle half way around the world is not designed to demonstrate your shooting ability, but rather to ensure the rifle and scope/sights have held zero in the cargo compartment and while being moved by the luggage gorillas.

An inability to shoot the rifle(s) brought on safari is the most common complaint I've heard from PHs over the years. This includes European hunters. Practice, practice, practice and then go out and practice some more is a mantra all my clients hear repeatedly.

Geoff24,

I am not a PH, but let me answer your question in my capacity of hunting journalist. The majority of hunters that I have hunted with shoot very well. Some of them are brilliant marksmen. Most of them are way better shots than me. This is not saying too much, but I did grow up with rifle in hand. I don't want to appear to be generalizing, but in my opinion most German and American hunters are excellent shots. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are a minority. I have seen a guy take 4 buffalo in a row with one shot kills, another guy bowl over a kudu bull at 150 yards with a .500 double....The list goes on.

Of course it is easier to shoot straight off a bench than infield, that goes without saying. I guess the main reason for bench practice is to make sure your rifle is on song. If your rifle is shooting spot on, it makes one all that more confident when the real deal comes about.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Shooting off the bench after transporting your rifle half way around the world is not designed to demonstrate your shooting ability, but rather to ensure the rifle and scope/sights have held zero in the cargo compartment and while being moved by the luggage gorillas.

An inability to shoot the rifle(s) brought on safari is the most common complaint I've heard from PHs over the years. This includes European hunters. Practice, practice, practice and then go out and practice some more is a mantra all my clients hear repeatedly.

Fellow at the range the other week just bought a Rigby and was talking about his upcoming (next week) African Safari. He figured he'd shoot a box of cartridges and be fine being as the cartridges are expensive. Not a regular hunter or shooter either. Did a nice job tearing up the target frame at 25 yards as much as anything else. Somebody suggested he might postpone his trip until he could shoot the rifle he was taking and he said some rather rude things to the suggester and stomped off. I'm thinking he's one of those people that comes home and buys trophies on ebay or at the taxidermist and has his picture taken with other people's animals on his trip.

I'll bet somebody can get a good deal on that Rigby in a couple more weeks!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I'll bet somebody can get a good deal on that Rigby in a couple more weeks!

I got my Ruger No. 1 in .458 Lott from a similar fellow for a good deal. Only had 18 rounds since it left the factory and a couple very minor scratches on the laminate stock from his "hunt" when I bought it.

I, too, am interested in what our resident PH's have to say about this. I see many guys at the range who think anywhere on paper is good shooting. They don't want to shoot much because of the cost of ammo. If they can barely get on paper at 100 yards off a bench, I hafta wonder if they can even hit a barn from field positions at hunting ranges--say, 30 to 200 yards.

quote:

Practice, practice, practice and then go out and practice some more is a mantra all my clients hear repeatedly.

I'm a firm believer in practice. That's why I got into reloading...so I could shoot a lot more for the same money. I wound up spending waaaaaay more on reloading than I would've ever spent on ammo...but that's another story.

IMO, if one can't keep their shots within a few inches (3-4 at most) of where they're placing their sights or crosshairs (from field positions), then they have no business shooting at live game.

A guy at the deer camp I was at this month made a similiar comment about shooting his 375. He said get it sighted in and then put away the rest of the box since it is so expensive. I didn't comment.

I am NOT a ph in Africa but I have guided several hundred clients here in the States and Mexico. I must go out on a limb and say most of my clients can shoot paper without a problem. Plenty of time, both elbows rested, sandbags, plenty time again...you know what I mean. I must also state that most(over half) are poor shots on shooting game. It doesn't take long to tell who grew up with a Daisy Red Rider in there hands and who started shooting only at the range a couple of years ago.
Bottom line, there is a BIG difference shooting game and shooting off the bench. As stated earlier, the bench only confirms your rifle is zerod, what happens on a big whitetail moving across a pear patch is the big league! Try getting a good shot on a big whitetail for over a week only to have the guy missed a 150 yard shot. OUCH, that's what hurts a guide.
You cannot substitute years of experience with a rifle shooting game under all conditions versus bench shooting.

Although I don't consider myself a marksman, I have shot a lot of animals from a lot of positions. In fact, I had only missed one animal out of 10 with my safari rifle (offhand, runner). However, I could not hit the broadside of the barn in RSA on the initial few days of the first part of my hunt. I am sure my PH was laughing his bum off. I think it may have been jitters, jet lag or just something strange. Later in the hunt, I hit everything, but could have used better "Africa" shot placement.

As a group, I think Americans, Germans and Scandanavian hunters shoot better than the rest. In fact, I think they come (on average that is), more prepared and with better shooting skills than South African biltong hunters, who like to comment how poor shots from overseas is, after hearing perhaps one or 2 instances from their "buddy" (who happenms to be a part time PH). In fact, if you ask the same question of "PHs' that have little or no experience, they will normally tell you how bad the visiting hunters shoot. when you put them on sticks, you see why they feel they have to point out how bad someone else is...
I have had my share of really bad shots, missing an elephant completely at 23 yards (Hungarian), averaging 9 shots per elephant ( 2 Spaniards shooting 5 elephant in total with me), missing one animal and hitting another etc.
The fact is, most, even the good shots, eventually fluff a shot, and normally they are slightly rattled afterwards. This contribute to them starting to go "bad". With a little encouragement and guidance, they soon get their confidence back, and shoot plenty good enough. Very few visiting hunters are really crack shots, but I would say that at least 70% are good enough for most hunting in Africa. The exception would be real springbok culling (brain-shots only), where you need to be able to really shoot accurately.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
.........................................., after hearing perhaps one or 2 instances from their "buddy" (who happenms to be a part time PH). In fact, if you ask the same question of "PHs' that have little or no experience, they will normally tell you how bad the visiting hunters shoot. when you put them on sticks, you see why they feel they have to point out how bad someone else is...
I have had my share of really bad shots, missing an elephant completely at 23 yards (Hungarian), averaging 9 shots per elephant ( 2 Spaniards shooting 5 elephant in total with me), missing one animal and hitting another etc.
The fact is, most, even the good shots, eventually fluff a shot, and normally they are slightly rattled afterwards. This contribute to them starting to go "bad". With a little encouragement and guidance, they soon get their confidence back, and shoot plenty good enough. .......................

Karl,

I'm sure you realize exactly how true some of your words are? I do hope that this is not stirring up a hornets' nest, but that your words were chosen to reflect the fact that the clients shooting ability is very closely correlated to the PH' guiding experience?

Just as Karl said it is the part time PH’s [Just for the record, I'm one], or the PH's with little or no experience that are simply unable to or unwilling to or simply do not know that they should give the client some proper "...little encouragement and guidance..." who are the ones who have clients with bad shooting ability! These are often also the ones that bragg about what good shots they are and how often they have had to "clean up the messy shooting by their clients..." But, as Karl said; Put them up on sticks..... Flippin idiots! Mostly, but not always or all of, the bad shooting of their clients can be directly attributed to their inexperience resulting in poor guiding by themselves!

Yes, I do know that there are a few clients that are notoriously poor shots, but a good and experienced PH will very soon realize that and then just work harder to get such clients closer and within the clients shooting capability distance! I've been there, done that! Karl, you will also know that on elephant and other DG you must let some [scared] clients shoot from further, rather than from closer, to get them to hit where they should. Could this possibly have been what happened to your Hungarian client??

My reply is as a part time PH who guides but a small number of visiting hunters each year. But I guide them mostly in the Free State grassveld on animals like blesbuck and springbuck. Although I must admit the lack of accurate records of such matters, my gut feel right now is that here shots are more often further than 200 yards than closer. Certainly most shots are beyond 150 yards. So any deficiency in a client’s shooting ability does not remain hidden for long!

But I also feel compelled to uphold a high standard of hunting ethics in my guiding: Therefore no client would be allowed to take a shot with IMO a 50-50, or for that matter even a 25-75 chance of just resulting in a wounded rather than a dead animal. For this reason I make a point of really trying to assess the client’s real, as opposed to bragged about, shooting abilities at live game animals. Sometimes this involves talking to the client on a “man to man†basis before allowing him to take any shot at animals. Sometimes such straight takling and demanding honest answers about shooting ability is not required at all. It may have come out naturally that this client is a long range varminter, or an experienced target shot, and then I just “know†that he should do OK. But based on my prior evaluation I would work harder to get some clients closer, while for others I would allow a rather further first shot.

But by and large, my average client over the last 20 or so years could shoot well enough! Much better than the average South African biltong hunter. In fact I would say that my worst shooting client ever was probably a better shot at game than the average SA biltong hunter. In recent years it may have something to do with up front honesty and the resulting client selection. It is quite true that when I start describing honestly to some potential clients what they can expect of hunting in such open terrain, and what sort of shooting ability hunting would require from them, some seem to just sort of loose interest! But, even ignoring the big role that the experience and guidance by the PH plays, I agree with Karl’s assesment that a large % of all hunting clients are good enough shots for most hunting in South Africa.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by sevenmagltd.:
IIt doesn't take long to tell who grew up with a Daisy Red Rider in there hands and who started shooting only at the range a couple of years ago.
Bottom line, there is a BIG difference shooting game and shooting off the bench.

When I was attending a US Gunsmithing college, one of my fellow students of RSA origin was trying to ping a gong at about 250 or so with his American Weenchester Lever Rifle.

He was missing it by yards. I asked if I might try. He said OK. I rang the gong with random walmart ammo, can't recall if it was win or rem, and unknown sights, don't even recall looking at the sights to make the shots. He said "I bet you can't do it again!" so I took another shot and did it again. He traded it for an M-1 carbine after that. Turned out I can shoot those too...

I got my Red Ryder when I was 4 and my first .30-30 lever rifle when I was 7. .270 when I was 10.

Makes a difference.

Not bragging, not complaining...and in the long and odd scheme of life, I took my best African Trophy with a BRNO I borrowed from him on the Zim border. Culled a large 4 legged beast at about 335 with a .223 in the brain stem.

You have to know your equipment and I knew him and trusted his. I'll also admit to whiffing a shot on an Impala because it was sharply downhill and I did the mental math wrong as to elevation. Shot at least 18" over his spine and he didn't stick around to give another chance.

Slightly off topic...Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread just interested in Tom's talk of a Winchester 30-30. My dad has a 25-20 dated 1880 something I think - will confirm the date. Does anyone know anything about this rifle? They seem less common than the 30-30. We used to have a lot of ammo and my brother and I spent our youth popping things with it. I think my brother shot his first impala with it. Special little rifle but sadly we have no rounds for it now. Could we get some in the US?

Thanks, Dave

David,

If you call Ken Stewart of Stewart Bullets in Pietersburg RSA, he should probably be able to load you some. His numbers are +27142899401 or +27822986779.

On the offchance he can't, try Sabi Rifles at +2713 752 4333.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Steve, I'll do that. I will be sending you a PM a little later

Dave

quote:

But I also feel compelled to uphold a high standard of hunting ethics in my guiding: Therefore no client would be allowed to take a shot with IMO a 50-50, or for that matter even a 25-75 chance of just resulting in a wounded rather than a dead animal.

Are you saying you have clients who never miss or wound animals?

I look at the rifle and you already get a feeling. (feel the love LOL)

you get paper shooters and then you get hunters some of the greatest hunters can't shoot a 1" group at 100m but when they aim at an animal they will hit where he aims everytime from any posision. they shoot on instinct and if you ask how he does it they will normally tell you they don't know the cross just stops there

the opposite is also true you get guys that shoots a 10mm group at 200m which is great he has every gadget that is availeble and uses it to good effect but in the veld he cant hit a elephant at 20m because he is relying on his gadgets to do the work and not his own ability their rifles is normally in impecable condition and even the recoil pad is glassbedded.

Hunting is like golf the only person that you bullshit is yourself know what you are capable of and be honest about it everybody in hunting camp will go out of their way to help you be successfull this will boost your confidance and not breakit down.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
I look at the rifle and you already get a feeling. (feel the love LOL)

you get paper shooters and then you get hunters some of the greatest hunters can't shoot a 1" group at 100m but when they aim at an animal they will hit where he aims everytime from any posision. they shoot on instinct and if you ask how he does it they will normally tell you they don't know the cross just stops there

the opposite is also true you get guys that shoots a 10mm group at 200m which is great he has every gadget that is availeble and uses it to good effect but in the veld he cant hit a elephant at 20m because he is relying on his gadgets to do the work and not his own ability their rifles is normally in impecable condition and even the recoil pad is glassbedded.

Hunting is like golf the only person that you bullshit is yourself know what you are capable of and be honest about it everybody in hunting camp will go out of their way to help you be successfull this will boost your confidance and not breakit down.

This makes a lot of sense, particularly the last paragraph. Well said 375!

Dave

In 1995 I was sitting in on a PH evaluation course at Ian Goss's. We were about 12 in total.
Ian asked how many of us REGULARLY shot game at 300m and beyond. I remember the majority of hands going up.

He drove us to the range where he put up a broadside Impala target and we each got 2 shots at 300m, off the bench...out of 24 shot I think about 7 or 8 were in the vitals., most were miss or definate wound....One lady shooting a .270WBY was deadly with it and had both shots in the heart/lung as was one other guy, but most of us were actually quite poor and were not consistent with knowing our trajectories...just goes to show!

This is just a silly question in the first place.

How many PH's can shoot?

And how is "shoot" defined? Resting on a termite mound? On shooting sticks? Dropping a running buff with an off-hand shot at 150 yards?

Most hunting/shooting in Africa doesn't require being a great shot. Just recognize what are easy shots to you and stick to them whether they are within twenty yards or within 200 yards.

A lot of PH's pressure guys into shooting when the client knows it is not going to turn out well. Just be honest with yourself and tell the PH to piss-off and find something that you can take within your comfort zone.

I've heard many a PH justify their actions after a wounded animal has escaped by saying something to the effect "Well, the guy made his own decision to shoot." Or "The client pulled the trigger."

So you pass on a buff or lion at 150 yards, or 75 yards, and go home eventually with a piss ant buffalo or whatever. It ain't the end of the world.

Just shoot when you feel comfortable, and not when the PH wants you to shoot*.

*All of this does not apply to guys that couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, or shows up in camp with a rifle he has never shot before, or ....

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

But I also feel compelled to uphold a high standard of hunting ethics in my guiding: Therefore no client would be allowed to take a shot with IMO a 50-50, or for that matter even a 25-75 chance of just resulting in a wounded rather than a dead animal.

Are you saying you have clients who never miss or wound animals?

Saeed,

What I'm saying is that if IMO, which I take to be an accepted abbreviation of “ in my opinionâ€, there is a great chance, and 25 % is far to great, that if the particular client attempts the shot it will result in wounding, I would diplomatically suggest to the client some postponement of the shot. “Let’s see if we can reach that termite mound there – it is closer and will give you a good rest higher than the grass!†or something similar. I will try to talk him out of attempting that shot which I think is to risky to attempt. But if I really think, and here his past shooting counts very much, that he is just as likely to just wound or kill I will not let him take the shot. If the guy keeps on arguing and insist that he take the shot, well I honestly do not want to predict how I would react. I know that I 'should' say point blank that the shot is to difficult for him.

What is also true that “my opinion†is formed there at the time where the animal is within possible shooting range. In forming that opinion I would consider his shooting at the bench to check rifle scope zero, his replies to my questions about his shooting abilities, the way and familiarity with which he handles his firearm, and, most important, would be how he did on previous shots, and considering the time of the day, and the wind, and how much the hunter had to drink the night before and all those factors that were actually considered, as opposed to ‘should be considered’. My opinion has been wrong, both ways. Where I thought that a client can very easily make a shot count, and he misses or wounds. S#@t happens! Yes, I’ve also been wrong to think that a client is not up to a shot, talked him out of attempting, to only later find out as the safari progresses, that he was very probably up to taking such a shot.

What I am most definitely saying is that I’m not in the business just to collect trophy fees by allowing, or as is sometimes done coercing, a client into taking what I honestly think is a risky shot. But I do honestly admit to being in the wrong to both ways. A few of my clients have wounded animals in recent times, and some could very probably pulled off shots which I initially talked them out of.


What 375 fanatic said about being honest about your shooting abilities is just a better way of expressing my view.

A very 'good' recent client, who admited to being a "so-so" shot, and who missed his first three consecutive shots with his .308 at blesbuck was spoken to nicely, boosted and predictably ended his grassveld hunting with 3 very far and very good killing shots at 3 blesbuck.

My mother's advice holds true here also: Be perfectly honest at all times! If you are not a crack shot, then tell your PH so in no uncertain terms. Honesty is the best policy. Always!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
In 1995 I was sitting in on a PH evaluation course at Ian Goss's. We were about 12 in total.
Ian asked how many of us REGULARLY shot game at 300m and beyond. I remember the majority of hands going up.

He drove us to the range where he put up a broadside Impala target and we each got 2 shots at 300m, off the bench...out of 24 shot I think about 7 or 8 were in the vitals., most were miss or definate wound....One lady shooting a .270WBY was deadly with it and had both shots in the heart/lung as was one other guy, but most of us were actually quite poor and were not consistent with knowing our trajectories...just goes to show!

Uncle Ian told us about that famous day

Ian and I designed and built that old sleeperwood shooting bench together almost 20 years ago....... hope you youngsters treated it with a bit of respect!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
that old sleeperwood shooting bench together almost 20 years ago.......

that is now a plywood bench mate if it was an old bench 20years ago

I told him it's last a lifetime...... the bloody thing was as heavy as hell.

Getting a client to shoot from a bench is also a big indication on how well the client knows his rifle. You can see when a hunter handles his rifle well that he has used it well before. On that point alone you can feel quite confident as a ph with the client.

Most bad shots taken on game from clients thus far was from clients shooting with borrowed rifles. Not ours but a rifle from a buddy hunter and so on. So most of the times clients do shoot well enough especially when using their own rifles. But like Karl said even a good shot as a bad day and if ever you hear someone saying that he has never missed before then he obviously has never hunted properly before.

quote:

Karl, you will also know that on elephant and other DG you must let some [scared] clients shoot from further, rather than from closer, to get them to hit where they should. Could this possibly have been what happened to your Hungarian client??

Andrew, this was the first we had a clear shot, and he admiitted afterwards his heart-rate was probably over 180/ min...

Will, most of the PH's that works for me, including myself, will probably outshoot you...

Another little comment- about 4 years back I had a group of biltong hunters, who where actually above average shots. The night before the hunt, a youngster from the group said "Luckily, I have never wounded a buck..." My answer to him was, "Only 2 types of people has never wounded an animal- beginners and bull-shitters, you decide which one you are..."

I will be the first to admit, I have made a bad shot or two, but I have never wounded and lost game. I missed a jackel and couple of porcupines at night and I could not believe I missed but the conditions were less then ideal. Over shot on ever one. One time, I will never forget, is when, I made a bad shot at a bontebok while I was hunting with Andrew. I shot the legs out from under it. That is the only time I can remember, that I wounded an animal and had to walk it down and finally finished it with an off hand shot at 125 yards. With the rifle I was using the first shot was too long a shot. It was at about 300 yards. I had sighted it in at at zero at 100 yards. With this rifle I should have had it 3 inches high, with the weight bullet I was using and I would have been fine. It really upset me, not until I got home did I realize with the bullet weight I was using and the what it was zero in, what I had done. That is the only animal I can remember I had to track down and finish off. I have to use more then one shot when I broke a back or even with a lung shot it would not go down. I think most Americans at least the average Americans who save up to go to africa, work at trying to best shot possible. They do not like to embarass themselves and they know if they wound and lose game they pay. So, with the right caliber rifle (one the person is comfortable with) properly sighted in and with practice, I do not see why the hunter should not do well in Africa or anywhere in the world. It is when he or she takes a shot she is not comfortable with and is made to hurry up a shot or take one that she is not capable of taking is when wounding and loss of animal happens. I really appreciated it when I hunted in Africa the first time. The PH took me out and hunted lesser plains game until he saw how I handled my rifle. I think it is important for the PH to see how a client handles and shoots his rifle not just off a bench but at live animals. Just my two cents.

I live to hunt not just hunt to live.

I think most PHs, (most of the time) can pretty much tell what kind of a shot the client is gonna be just by watching him during the first few minutes after he's unpacked his firearms.

If he handles it comfortably, competently and knows where things are and how they work, without having to look down at the firearm, then he's probably gonna at least a reasonable shot.

If he handles the rifle(s) like he's afraid it's gonna bite him and he has to look down to see what he's doing and how it works, there's a pretty good chance the shooting is gonna be sub standard.

The other give away is watching the client at the range......... I don't mean how he shoots, I mean whether he flinches or not and how confident he is. - I always watch the client and not the target on those occasions.

Before my second trip to Namibia I took my 9.3x62 to the range several times a week. I had made a goal to shoot 300 rounds of full powder loads, using Graf's Prvi 286gr bullets, from ONLY field positions out to 200yds. Most of the shooting was 100 or less, the distance I had shot most of my game on the first trip. Since I was going back to the same place to hunt I felt this was a good plan. Were all my kills one-shot, DRT? No, but I did not lose an animal and I sorted out all my screw-ups myself in short order.

While I was out there practicing a local gentleman who goes to various countries in Africa every year came by often. His rifles were more money than I was planning to spend on my whole trip, not a slap here, just fact. His practice consisted of shooting off the bench for a bit using a lead sled and a sand bag for his 416 Rigby. Since he was using factory ammo I doubt his purpose was to "work up a load". Never saw him take a practice shot. One day a friend of his came by, evidently this gentleman was going to hunt cape buffalo, THE NEXT WEEK, and was going to borrow the 416. He fired 3 shots off the bench, minus the sled and called it a day. He lamented his 6 inch group, AT 25 YARDS, but the owner of the rifle told him not to worry as "all the shots are real close". He packed up the rifle and a box of ammo and was good to go...

How would you like to be his PH?

If only they were all that good!

I say that slightly tongue in cheek, but only slightly. Ie seen hunters who can take a gnat off a duikers arse are 300 metres and others who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo at point blank range......... I guess dealing with all sorts is just part of the job.

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
Before my second trip to Namibia I took my 9.3x62 to the range several times a week. I had made a goal to shoot 300 rounds of full powder loads, using Graf's Prvi 286gr bullets, from ONLY field positions out to 200yds. Most of the shooting was 100 or less, the distance I had shot most of my game on the first trip. Since I was going back to the same place to hunt I felt this was a good plan. Were all my kills one-shot, DRT? No, but I did not lose an animal and I sorted out all my screw-ups myself in short order.

While I was out there practicing a local gentleman who goes to various countries in Africa every year came by often. His rifles were more money than I was planning to spend on my whole trip, not a slap here, just fact. His practice consisted of shooting off the bench for a bit using a lead sled and a sand bag for his 416 Rigby. Since he was using factory ammo I doubt his purpose was to "work up a load". Never saw him take a practice shot. One day a friend of his came by, evidently this gentleman was going to hunt cape buffalo, THE NEXT WEEK, and was going to borrow the 416. He fired 3 shots off the bench, minus the sled and called it a day. He lamented his 6 inch group, AT 25 YARDS, but the owner of the rifle told him not to worry as "all the shots are real close". He packed up the rifle and a box of ammo and was good to go...

How would you like to be his PH?

I would love it i will shoot a buff that he is paying for LOL or he will be paying for a buff that he wont even taste the backstraps off not even taking a photo

the argument of the cost off ammo is irelevant if you are prepared to pay 18000 usd for a 10day buff hunt what is 300usd for practise ammo nothing

its like buying a Ferrari and letting your sixteen year old drive it doesn't make sense luckily he will have a PH backing him up

you can use the the same argument with premuim bullets

quote:

How would you like to be his PH?

HunterMontana, I would prefer a guy as above with a great additude, easy to get along with, than a real prick that can shoot springbok in the head, off hand at 200 yards consistantly...
Luckily the real pricks are in the minority in the hunting business, client wise.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Slightly off topic...Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread just interested in Tom's talk of a Winchester 30-30. My dad has a 25-20 dated 1880 something I think - will confirm the date. Does anyone know anything about this rifle? They seem less common than the 30-30. We used to have a lot of ammo and my brother and I spent our youth popping things with it. I think my brother shot his first impala with it. Special little rifle but sadly we have no rounds for it now. Could we get some in the US?

Thanks, Dave

Ten-X Ammunition also loads it. Latest catalog says $52.99 US per box of 50. 85 grain boolits.

As for risky shots, I had a shot on a good blue wildebeest and the wind was in my favor and I was around 300 off on top of a hill, not too far from the truck. PH was inclined for me to take a shot. Game wasn't moving but it was pretty far for express sights. He offered me his scoped .300WinMag but I'd never shot his rifle so I wasn't going to do that. It was either my rifle or no shot. I looked at it for a while. Went down to the truck, ate a pie and drank a beer. Went back up on the hilltop. Stared at it for a while longer. Still wasn't moving. Maybe 15 minutes later I decided to take the shot from a very solid prone rest. DRT shot. PH said, "from now on tom, you must have a pie and a beer before long shots" with a chuckle. Spent the better part of an hour debating the shot. Bit of skill, bit of good luck, everything worked out, but it could have been a wounding shot and I knew it when I took it. Still have mixed feelings about taking that shot to this day.

Cheers,

I admit to being totally jinxed by baboon. I think I am running about 20-25% success rate on shots taken vs. kills. I am talking running shots and sitting in a tree at 150 yards looking at me.

But I love hunting them! Very frustrating.

Gee....all this chatter makes me wanna get to Africa and see whether I can shoot...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Gee....all this chatter makes me wanna get to Africa and see whether I can shoot...

Ok, G5

Karl, Steve and Rudi have summed it up damn well.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Gee....all this chatter makes me wanna get to Africa and see whether I can shoot...

Ok, G5

Karl, Steve and Rudi have summed it up damn well.

You lost me Blair...

Anyway...I have that new .15 Caliber CRAPFAD DGR that should do for anything short of Elephant eh...?? I never miss now that I mounted my Celestron reflector spotting scope up top... Hell I can pick which tooth I'm gonna shoot out of a Buff at 2000 meters...

(I think most PHs, (most of the time) can pretty much tell what kind of a shot the client is gonna be just by watching him during the first few minutes after he's unpacked his firearms.

If he handles it comfortably, competently and knows where things are and how they work, without having to look down at the firearm, then he's probably gonna at least a reasonable shot.

If he handles the rifle(s) like he's afraid it's gonna bite him and he has to look down to see what he's doing and how it works, there's a pretty good chance the shooting is gonna be sub standard.

The other give away is watching the client at the range......... I don't mean how he shoots, I mean whether he flinches or not and how confident he is. - I always watch the client and not the target on those occasions. )

Bingo Steve! could not have expressed it better.