Here's a couple of 'em.

I've blocked out the hunters because I don't have copyright.

The lions that come out of the same areas are of similar stunning quality......... but for Mark's benefit, I don't think they measure the mane length though!

quote:

If you don't believe cats stretch then take a look at the pic in the link I mentioned or for an even better example,take a look at the pic Jorge posted........ If you can't see that leopard has stretched out of his normal shape, you might like to get your eyes tested.

Your pictures prove diddly. Just because a cats spine straightens out in a hanging position doesn't mean it stretches. I am telling you from taking 4 hours of mammology, 4 hours of anatomy, and obtaining a degree in wildlife and fisheries sciences. Plus 18 years experience in recreating leopard form. If I did not know leopard spines do you think I could recreate this?



By the way, not one single person that has seen one of my leopards has asked what the skull measured. Not once, because nobody gives a damn.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

Your pictures prove diddly. Just because a cats spine straightens out in a hanging position doesn't mean it stretches. I am telling you from taking 4 hours of mammology, 4 hours of anatomy, and obtaining a degree in wildlife and fisheries sciences. Plus 18 years experience in recreating leopard form. If I did not know leopard spines do you think I could recreate this?

By the way, not one single person that has seen one of my leopards has asked what the skull measured. Not once, because nobody gives a damn.

Dammit. There go the ribs again!

I guess all those hundreds of thousands of people who spend all that money on membership and record books and take such a keen interest in Rowland Ward, SCI and all the other alphabet record books don't give a damn either!

Open ANY record book and turn to the methods of measurement pages and you'll find every single publication of every single species only takes into account factors that can't be deliberately or accidentally varied....... If that weren't the case, the records would be broken umpteen times a year by dodgy people who just want to see their name in print and brag to their neighbours about the size of their dicks!

I thought you'd have known that after studying mammology and anatomy for a full 8 hours!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Going slightly off topic for a moment. The more I learn about those areas I mentioned, the more it seems to me as though it's almost like there are two separate sub species of leopard in those areas.

Some of the leopards look to be much the same as anywhere else but for some reason others are damn near the size of a lioness and I'd love to be able to see a (simply written) report on the DNA testing of some of the cats there.

P'raps the Aggie team might be able to comment on that?

the aggie team thats your que Lane, Jump in and educate use PLEASE

quote:

I guess all those hundreds of thousands of people who spend all that money on membership and record books and take such a keen interest in Rowland Ward, SCI and all the other alphabet record books don't give a damn either!

If you read my post earlier you would know they enter the skulls in the record books because that is all that is offered to them. You can't take a master measurer into the field so all that is left is bring the skull back and get that measured instead. Find a way to get a good scoring system set up in the field that anyone can do, and is not plagued by fraud, and incorporates body size into it, and no one but you will ever care about skull measurements ever again. You think the skull measurement system is there because the public wants it when in fact its the only thing they can have.

Going back to the weight...... give an old hand a freshly killed leopard, 2 or 3 staff and 20 minutes and they'll be able to increase it's weight by at least 20%...... and that's one of the reasons the record books choose to use skull measurement instead of other standards to gauge trophy quality.

quote:

Open ANY record book and turn to the methods of measurement pages and you'll find every single publication of every single species only takes into account factors that can't be deliberately or accidentally varied....... If that weren't the case, the records would be broken umpteen times a year by dodgy people who just want to see their name in print and brag to their neighbours about the size of their dicks!

I thought you'd have known that after studying mammology and anatomy for a full 8 hours!

Now you are so desperate you aren't even making since??????????????

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

If you read my post earlier you would know they enter the skulls in the record books because that is all that is offered to them. You can't take a master measurer into the field so all that is left is bring the skull back and get that measured instead. Find a way to get a good scoring system set up in the field that anyone can do, and is not plagued by fraud, and incorporates body size into it, and no one but you will ever care about skull measurements ever again. You think the skull measurement system is there because the public wants it when in fact its the only thing they can have.

And that comment alone proves how little you know about the subject.

quote:

Going back to the weight...... give an old hand a freshly killed leopard, 2 or 3 staff and 20 minutes and they'll be able to increase it's weight by at least 20%...... and that's one of the reasons the record books choose to use skull measurement instead of other standards to gauge trophy quality.

You think the SCI system of skull measuremnt can't be plagued by dishonesty?????????? You have seen how easy it is to enter a trophy haven't you? You have seen the qualifications it takes to be a measurer? I gaurantee that the SCI recordbooks have some terds floating in those waters that don't belong there.

quote:

And that comment alone proves how little you know about the subject.

Then enlighten us. Or are you going to get snooty again?

By the way I don't think wieght should be the measuremnt, but you haven't asked. If you want to know who whacked the best leopard it should be a full body volume measurement.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
You think the SCI system of skull measuremnt can't be plagued by dishonesty?????????? You have seen how easy it is to enter a trophy haven't you? You have seen the qualifications it takes to be a measurer? I gaurantee that the SCI recordbooks have some terds floating in those waters that don't belong there.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
If you want to know who whacked the best leopard it should be a full body volume measurement.

Oh Lord, grant me the strength to resist commenting on those little pearls of wisdom!

You haven't made a constructive comment for your last several posts. Why start Now?

Who is some master measurer to tell me what kind of trophy I have?

I liken that to the magazine writers who test vehicles. Seems everyone of their "standards" of measurement have little if any application in every day use.

Again why must I use a certain measurement simply because some few individuals have determined that for them this is how THEY want it?

Interesting discussion! Several comments are in order. First is that I believe the majority of hunters are not really all that interested in the record books, B&C, SCI,or Rowland Ward. I have taken many trophies over the years and have never entered any, even though most would rank high in SCI and one or two even go into B&C. I know I am not alone in this feeling. The book people use skull measurements for cats, bear, etc. because it is the only measurement that is very difficult to fake after the fact.

When it comes to field judging trophies, there are some things such as the apparent width of horns or antlers compared to to other physical characteristics of the same animal that can be helpful. With sheep, the degree of curl, depth of curl in relation to jaw line, etc that come into play. When it comes to cats, bear, etc. Its a different ball game.

I have never heard of a PH in a leopard blind whisper to his client "Take him, his skull will go at least 17". He is much more likely to say "That's a big f**king cat! Take him." A big, heavy, long cat will make a much more impressive trophy mount than a smaller cat with a big head. That is why the vast majority of hunters pay little attention to skull size and rightly place importance on length and heft contrary to what Shakri may think.

Howard,

You miss the point.

As you say, it's your trophy and in fact you don't need to justify it to anyone. Which was one of the points I was trying to make but my main point is that bragging about the weight of a cat or using the weight as a gauge of quality of a cat is like saying my car is faster because it's red. It has no real relevance to anything at all.

In other words, it's nothing more than sales hyperbole if coming from the seller and shows a degree of naivety if used by the hunter.

I appreciate that probably sounds rude and it's not meant to...... but it is the truth.

Ramhunter,

You might like to do some research here.... look at the pics of a freshly shot cat and then look at the pics of the same animal after the taxidermist has gotten through with it...... you'll often see that one has very little relation to the other.

you raise a good point about the PH in the blind not looking at the skull size....... but a wise one is well advised to use sizing marks on the bait branch so he has a very good idea of how large the cat is before the client even leans into his rifle and the first thing he'll do when it's available is measure the skull...... maybe not when the client is around but he will do it at the first opportunity.

You'll see what I mean by sizing marks in the second pic down here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-mr-spots.html

The big one's look big!

Besides skull size, foot width and tail length what else is appropriate for field measure?

Sorry but body "size" depends a lot on the quality and quantity of the last meal.

Jeff

quote:

Again why must I use a certain measurement simply because some few individuals have determined that for them this is how THEY want it?

Because the gran poobah Shakari says so!

quote:

You might like to do some research here.... look at the pics of a freshly shot cat and then look at the pics of the same animal after the taxidermist has gotten through with it...... you'll often see that one has very little relation to the other.

You may want to find a better taxidermist.

quote:

but a wise one is well advised to use sizing marks on the bait branch so he has a very good idea of how large the cat is before the client even leans into his rifle

That tells even less about skull size than looking at the live animal.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

You might like to do some research here.... look at the pics of a freshly shot cat and then look at the pics of the same animal after the taxidermist has gotten through with it...... you'll often see that one has very little relation to the other.

You may want to find a better taxidermist.

Firstly, I didn't say they were my clients and secondly, yeah, maybe I should find one that doesn't know about drying out periods, how many PHs are measurers, thinks body capacity should be used to judge trophies and claims to be a taxidermist but fails to put any info into his profile instead of using Lifeform Taxidermy who are widely acknowledged to be one of the finest taxidermists, esp cat taxidermists in Africa if not the world.

Why not send me details of your company and website and I'll consider it....



Ah well. I think it's time I was off to "gran poobah" palace before I break any more ribs laughing!

quote:

Why not send me details of your company and website and I'll consider it....

The company is Tri-State taxidermy. I do not advertise with a website, and I will let any taxidermy judge score one of my leopard right next to a Life-Form mount anytime.



Good leopard mounts are very close representations of what the cat was like anotomicly in real life.

i actually think both sides are right excluding taxidermy contest. Shakari is correct if a person wants a book animal he uaully looks and sees where they come from. on the other side you may just want a toad that is huge body size and will look impressive. If you were looking at a whitetail that weighed 300lbs but scored 120 and right next to him was a 140lb buck with a score of 220 i will shoot the smaller body big horns everytime,and if i was looking at a 110 lb leopard with a huge head next to a 190lb toad i personnally would shoot the toad but i don't enter anything in the book anyway i think the big one looks better mounted. so really it depends on the hunter.

Smartguy,
You rise to the bait everytime even if you has to offer the bait for himself.

Yes, your taxidermy work is good.

No, you still do not play well with other children.

Yes, we had hoped you learned while you were in 'time out' to conduct yourself a little better.

No, you don't seem to have learned your lesson.

Please go back into exile and stick with something you know a little more about.

quote:

Smartguy,
You rise to the bait everytime even if you has to offer the bait for himself.

What?

Yes, your taxidermy work is good.

Thank you. I try very hard.

No, you still do not play well with other children.

Probably not.

Yes, we had hoped you learned while you were in 'time out' to conduct yourself a little better.

Disagreeing with someone is not bad conduct.

No, you don't seem to have learned your lesson.

Please go back into exile and stick with something you know a little more about.

Unless you or Shakari are wildlife bioligists I am pretty sure I am more qualified to have this conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

Smartguy,
You rise to the bait everytime even if you has to offer the bait for himself.

What?

Yes, your taxidermy work is good.

Thank you. I try very hard.

No, you still do not play well with other children.

Probably not.

Yes, we had hoped you learned while you were in 'time out' to conduct yourself a little better.

Disagreeing with someone is not bad conduct.

No, you don't seem to have learned your lesson.

Please go back into exile and stick with something you know a little more about.

Unless you or Shakari are wildlife bioligists I am pretty sure I am more qualified to have this conversation.

"I sho' is impressed with me!"

I have seen your shop, your work is good but your people skills need a little work.

Thanks for all the response. Much to digest.

Now, as they say, "the rest of the story". I hunted Zimbabwe in 2008 and was fortunate to have taken a nice, 135 lb, male Leopard. But, I just recently and after much agony, finally received my trophy after 2 1/4 years. I had it sent to the taxidermist and after tanning all appeared good, hair intact well. Sadly though, it is not mountable. After several taxidermists looked it over, just no stretch and would end up looking like a long, skinny, cheetah. And yes, I've talked with several folks. Seems the quality of the salt used and time, had something to do with it. Too much iodine or something.

So, plan is to try again and hold out for a large male or go home empty. Again, many thanks to all that have responded. You have given me much to consider. Thanks too for the great photo's.

matopos hills Zimbabwe. if any one tells me how to add another ar forum I will show some photos

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Howard,

You miss the point.

As you say, it's your trophy and in fact you don't need to justify it to anyone. Which was one of the points I was trying to make but my main point is that bragging about the weight of a cat or using the weight as a gauge of quality of a cat is like saying my car is faster because it's red. It has no real relevance to anything at all.

In other words, it's nothing more than sales hyperbole if coming from the seller and shows a degree of naivety if used by the hunter.

Actually I get your point perfectly and think that "technically" you are 100% correct. I just think its kind of silly that because someone chooses to judge their trophy by weight that another feels they have to stand up and say you are naive. Yes when it comes to record books weight is irrelevant but why does someone have to adhere to record book criteria?

BTW your car color analogy is invalid. More appropriate would be to claim that your car will be faster simply because it weights less.

Howard,

you missed the subtlety of my analogy. My point was the colour of the car doesn't affect the speed but the owner erronously thinks it does...... hence the hunter thinks the weight is important whereas in fact, it doesn't.

Lightness of the car making it faster would be a good analogy for the size of the skull equating to better trophy quality.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Howard,

you missed the subtlety of my analogy. My point was the colour of the car doesn't affect the speed but the owner erronously thinks it does...... hence the hunter thinks the weight is important whereas in fact, it doesn't.

Lightness of the car making it faster would be a good analogy for the size of the skull equating to better trophy quality.

No you just used a poor analogy. Weight is very important to overall car performance. Where as most people would tend to look only at horsepower or cubic inches or in your case skull size.

So not only is weight very important it is also in our example very subjective. I don't think anyone is disagreeing, I know I am not, with your stand that skull measurement is the only accepted way to record cat trophy size, however your stance allows no room for personal preference which is ultimately the only criteria that matters.

Mate, maybe it's a cultural or logic difference thing but in English, English rather than American English, my analogy was perfectly correct. (albeit very subtle)

I did actually point out (twice) that the real judgement of the trophy should be in the enjoyment and challenge of the hunt and how much the hunter enjoyed it.

Also that whether individual people like it or not, the truth is that ALL the record books apply exactly the same criteria for trophy judgement of cats.... Namely the length of the skull plus the width of the skull across the zygomatic arches and NOTHING else.

Therefore when talking meaningful trophy quality, weight, length, full body volume measurement or length of hair means bugger all.

The problem is that weight (esp) and length sounds so much more macho than a simple skull measurement and that's why unscrupulous and/or dumb sellers use it and so many hunters fall for it.

but it'll never detract from the truth of the science.

quote:

What that tells me is that you fell for the sales hyperbole that many companies like to trade on. If you wanted a true gauge of the cat (and I appreciate you might not have done. After all and IMO, any mature male leopard hunted ethically is an excellent trophy), you'd have measured the skull.

Once again, you are so busy trying to prove that you are right that you are not listening to the consumer. I JUDGE THE LEOPARD AND LION THAT I WANTED TO KILL BASED ON THE SIZE OF ITS ENTIRE BODY NOT ITS SKULL!! No one sold me on anything, no one promised me anything, body size or skull size. I wanted to kill the biggest bodied cat I could (much like the original poster), so I picked an area that consistently produced large bodied cats. And guess what, I went there and killed the biggest bodied cat we could find, my dream trophy. Who are you or anyone else to tell me what MY want in a leopard. It appears to me that you are the one pushing bullshit here.

Well now! LOL I don't know about English, English but in American English and our culture your analogy is often used. Everyone here knows red is faster. That would be liking saying my leopard is BETTER then yours because its spots are bigger.

I would argue though, your point, that record book criteria is the only meaningful trophy quality.

i can understand Steves point, and I can understand the weight lovers side of this discussion,and in my modest opinion, it`s alot to do with the clients wants/wishes and what he/she perceives as a trophy.
I shot a nice leopard in Zim in 1999, and to be perfectly honest, the skin/skul which I gave away to a very good friend was a nice trophy,but the real trophy was the fact I watched it for 1 hour and 5 mins also it was free hunt too amde it even specialer
I do know the size of it,but never realy thought of him in that way.

quote:

I do know the size of it,but never realy thought of him in that way.

spoken like someone who enjoyed the hunt more than the kill.

Thank you 505, I certainly did.None of my hunting is about the kill,thats the easy bit

I think some of you guys need to re-read my posts.

I'm saying that the only meaningful and scientific way to gauge trophy quality for the record books is by skull measurement alone because it's the only way that isn't open to abuse of one sort or another.

As far as how individuals value their trophies, I've repeatedly said that the trophy should be judged by the challenge of the hunt and how much the hunter enjoyed it. I've also said that any mature leopard hunted ethically is a fine trophy.

I often post a quote from Sher Jung in Tryst With tigers that I'm very fond of which said:

"The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it".

My other point is that weight and length of cat are nothing more than sales BS because it sounds so much more impressive than a simple skull measurement....... BUT they are very easily open to abuse and incidentally, are pretty much unproveable even a few days down the road.

As I said, give any old hand 2 staff and 20 minutes and he'll be able to add something like 20% to the weight of any freshly killed cat.

quote:

skull measurement alone because it's the only way that isn't open to abuse of one sort or another.

So what is the temperature in fairy land this morning? Do you really believe the spunk you type on here?

quote:

Mate, maybe it's a cultural or logic difference thing but in English, English rather than American English, my analogy was perfectly correct. (albeit very subtle)