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As a follow up to my other post on the number of agents out there - what are the responsibilities of a reputable agent? What should/does the customer recieve for using the agent? Caveat - I understand that the hunter does not pay directly for the agent's services, however the hunter does, in fact, pay for the agent's fees through the safari company. | ||
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Ross, There is probably a list a mile long of everything a "Reputable" agent could provide for a client but I think the short answer is experience. Been there and done that perhaps multiple times is invaluable. An example in my own case would be that I've been lucky enough hunt 8 African countries and '09 will see me in Mozambique and Botswana for safaris 13&14. Of course Adam is my back up with far more experience than I as he grew up in Tanzania and actually hunted as a PH in Zim and still hunts in Tanzania. Other than the obvious value of the agent's on the ground experience the agent should provide assistance with all aspects of the safari from initial planning right through trophy delivery to the client's taxidermist. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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mark ...spot on ... an good agent will help advise and if necessary arrange flight information , will help with all the what to bring list and permitting requirements . most of all you are paying for experience , someone who has been there and done that and after hearing your wants and needs will advise you where and when you need to go ... "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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advertising hunts making promises cashing checks making excuses  .  .  Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Seeing the high regard that agents are held in I am starting to feel better about being a lawyer. Maybe I can stop telling my parents that I am a piano player in a whorehouse. Mike | |||
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Mike As they say ... it is 99% of lawyers giving the other 1% a bad name!  (And in case some of the recent jittery & flaming posters don't understand - this is a joke!  )Johan | |||
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Johan, Certainly made me snigger!  | |||
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It is NOT a joke at all! The way I see it, religious zealots are at the bottom of the rung. One step above are politicians, then come lawyers, then come lying, deceitful hunting outfitters. | |||
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Oops, Saeed you left out where the agents fit in near the bottom? Is that because you don't want religious zealots feel good about not being right at the bottom?  [Advance apology to agents and any other trigger happy AR members - it is meant to be a joke, so two smileys!  ]Andrew McLaren | |||
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....depends on which whore house. 114-R10David | |||
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Hey Saeed! You left out car salesman and real estate agents! Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Don' forget HMO providers and workcomp whores. Midway USA sucks!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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I'd rather be an artificial inseminator at a skunk ranch than be thought a lawyer... "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Geez guys, don't get too carried away with the lawyer thing. I know we have thick skins, but give some of us good lawyers and great hunters, like Judge G., MJines, me, Bwanna and other decent AR folks a break!  | |||
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They closed the LaGrange Chicken Ranch (much lamented by Aggies), so some employees had to seek a second career. Others just continued to live off their ass-ets.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Boy I would sure would hate to be a lying, deceitful hunting outfitter with a law degree running for congress in Utah. | |||
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We represent mainly smaller outfits that don't have the time, money or expertise to do any major marketing, and who don't have support staff to speak of. Here's what we do for an outfitter, and we get paid by the outfitter for our services in the form of commissions on bookings. We provide 1. a web page, 2. a person stateside who answers emails and the telephone reliably, 3. a person who handles 90% of the questions and consolidates the other 10% into a weekly phone call 4. a written contract or booking confirmation for the client; as part of this, we document flights, passport and firearms particulars etc for the benefit of both parties 5. the collection and banking of deposits. Most of the time, we handle the money as the outfitter dictates. Some of the time, we act as escrow agent, when the client insists that the money be held in the USA until just prior to the hunt. 6. advertising on the web and in print 7. shows (we very seldom do shows as this is the most expensive form of marketing) and personal selling 8. "goodies" - from time to time, the outfitter needs some gadget or other and we make these things happen 9. DVDs for distribution to clients. I have personally spent weeks taking video and what seemed like months editing video for one of my partners. This was done entirely on my own time and at my own expense. Here's what we do for clients: 1. Advise them as to which of our hunts/areas best suit their needs. 2. Provide tips and travel advice, including putting them onto good travel agents, taxidermists, etc etc. 3. Provide quotations for specific hunts, and juggle schedules. 4. Provide a contract or booking confirmation. 5. Answer questions without the client having to run up his phone bill by making a bunch of international calls. Tried calling Zim lately? As you can see, the services we provide are mainly geared toward the outfitter, and we earn our money! The reason some clients don't like agents is that they totally misunderstand the agent's role. This misconception is encouraged by some agents, who portray themselves as "consultants" working for the client, when in fact they are working for the outfitter, selling the hunts they have to sell, plain and simple. All the client knows is that a chunk of his money went to a guy who didn't seem to do much for him, and may have painted a rosy picture of the hunt. So he feels that the agent is just a parasite and that the industry would be better off without agents. In reality, if each outfitter had to set up his own marketing office in the USA, the hunts would be MORE expensive. So the agent actually helps to keep costs down for all parties. And any experienced/savvy client knows to check references, rather than taking the agent's word verbatim. There doesn't need to be so much grief and rancour over the subject of agents. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Those are all good points, Russ. But in my opinion, the most important thing SOME agents offer is first-hand knowledge. Either I, James, or one of our pro-staffers (all extremely experienced international hunters) have hunted with every outfitter we book for. We know what to expect and that they can deliver what we promise. We also try to ask the right questions to match you up with the perfect hunt for you, as opposed to outfitters who may or many not try to make that square peg fit into that round hole, client be damned. I've had five disastrous hunts in the 11 years I've been doing this full-time. I was the hunter on every one. In the two cases where clients were with me, they knew the hunt was experimental going in and they got special pricing. Both times I refunded their money and got what I could out of the outfitter. It wasn't much compared to what I paid out, but I still have those clients. Whenever you deal with people, you are going to deal with some bumps in the road. But we try to keep those bumps to a minimum, and we do our best to make it right if things go bad. Like outfitters, lawyers, taxidermists, and doctors, not all agents are cut from the same cloth - there are bad ones in every profession. But the good ones provide a valuable service that doesn't cost you anything. What's wrong with that? | |||
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........provide a valuable service that doesn't COST you anything. Am I to believe that you "provide this valuable service" free of charge? Who pays your fee? Your kidding, right? My Daddy might have raised a damn fool, but he doesn't live in Alaska. Of course the hunter pays your wages. The Outfitter or PH could decrease their prices by the amount they pay you, if you were out of the picture. | |||
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Beg to differ, Saeed. Pedophiles are at the very bottom. Then, it's a tossup between religious zealots and politicians...most politiciasns being lawyers adds a different dimension to them both... | |||
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Do you really think outfitters are going to lower their rates if they don't use an agent? For many of them, agents are the bulk of their business. If they had to do their own marketing, prices would almost certainly increase to cover the additional marketing expenses. And let's be honest, if you book direct with any reputable outfitter, odds are you are going to pay the exact same price as if you booked with an agent. Of course, that doesn't stop lots of folks from wasting hours of our time picking our brains and then trying to go around us (a weekly occurrence). You don't have to use an agent, but lots of people with more important things to do than researching outfitters and juggling flight schedules find us pretty useful. | |||
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Greg, I'd just like to add one thing to what you have said above. Just because a guy does his own research does not guarantee he will know what to do with that reasearch once he has done it. A guy often catches a case of "Analysis Paralysis" with multiple offers buzzing around in his head not knowing who is BS'ing and who is not. In the end he may book the cheapest hunt which is more often than not the worst thing to do. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I booked my upcoming hunt with an agent. I can say that after spending some time on this forum, that I did not benefit greatly from my agents advice/experience. He was/is willing to help and is prompt at returning calls and emails. However, I would have no problem booking a hunt without an agent if I could meet the outfitter at a sports show or communicate via email, but I would seek references. That is another plus for this forum. For you agents, I am not saying I would not book with an agent again, but I wouldn't be uncomfortable going it on my own. I can say that some of you have provided some good info to this forum and I thank you for that. I traveled 8 times on fishing trips to Central America. The first trip I booked with an agent and all the others I booked myself (I know traveling with guns is a little different). Also I used a travel agent twice then booked my own flights after that. I tried to use travel agents recommended on this forum, but didn't have much luck, so I booked my own flight with Delta. When I return in April I will post a report and if things don't go well with the flights due to my own booking, I will let you know that too. | |||
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I started researching my first (and I used to say only but it seems there’s precedent to doubt that) up coming hunt to Africa over one year ago with hunt dates in 2010. Obviously I had plenty of time for research. I have found this site extremely helpful as is the general web and a co-worker who has hunted Africa 9 times. The search for info has been like stalking game for me, quite enjoyable. I love to learn new stuff!! I did contact a booking agent early on but only because I knew him from years ago before he became an agent. I think I unknowingly mislead him into thinking I was looking for his services when I innocently thought I was just chatting via email. My search evolved and took on a life of it’s own over the last year. I started with RSA and moved on to Namibia. From reading here I got a Buffalo bug and now after my research I ironically have booked two hunts, one in Namibia and one in Zambia with some touring of Namibia to be added. I ended up utilizing the expertise of the agent I had mentioned earlier because of the evolved complexity of two hunts in two countries. Could I have done this on my own…probably but I feel better having my money initially going to one spot here in the U.S. The other benefit I have found is that my trophy fee money can be held here in escrow and distributed to the outfitters at the conclusion of the hunt precluding the need for me to travel Africa with 10’s of thousands of traveler checks. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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OK OK I'll confess - I do have a good friend who is a lawyer  not only that but I've had impure thoughts I'm a bad boy | |||
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Say one rosary, ten Our Fathers, and volunteer at a homeless shelter for a week my son. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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dogcat We happen to work with both Greg and Mark and they have both booked a number of hunters with us. Whether you book directly or through the agent makes no difference in price. If is does, there's a problem somewhere! It would be silly and extremely short sighted of an outfitter to undercut his agent. I even refer recurring business to the original agent when a hunter contacts me later for a return safri, but that's me. Loyalty is a two way street. We work with a number of agents all over the world and they are especially valuable in places where we cannot speak the local language - Germany, Russia, Finland and so on. Working with and through an agent - a good one - can add a lot of value for a hunter, even if he is an old hand at arranging safaris. It is a sevice with a mountain of advice that comes for free! They should have first hand knowledge of every outfitter and hunting area they reccommend and ideally should have hunted there themselves. Unfortunately, there is the other side of the coin and there are many wanna-bee booking agents that are bull shitters. After all, anyone can become one! Their biggest sin is often misrepresentation - of the outfitter, what is able to do, and area size (a popular one!) and so on. Check out the agent as well if you do not know him - together with the outfitter. It really is quite easy to do this. Johan | |||
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OK. I think I get it now. An Outfitter or PH who does not use an Outfitter, will make more money if they hire an agent to book their hunts. And the money he pays to the agent is not passed on to the hunter? Yep, them Outfitters and PHs are nice guys. They will not charge the hunter for that cost. Of course, if an Outfitter or PH doesn't want to fool with the advertising and booking, he can pay an agent for that service. That cost will be passed on to the hunter. I hunted with a PH in Namibia who did not use an Outfitter or agent. He didn't have to. He was busy and didn't need to pay someone to book hunts for him. 4 of the animals I got went into Rowland Ward, so he is not hunting on a 200 acre farm. The hunt was cheaper than other PHs and Outfitters who used an Agent. He could discount the hunt by the amount he would have paid to the Agent. Pretty simple. I'm sure you understand this. I'll be sure and not pick your brain and then try to book with one of your Outfitters. I guess I'm not important enough, cause I did the research and booked my own hunt. When I get that important, I'll be sure and use an agent. | |||
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TJ You post is a little confusing. An Outfitter (seemingly) makes more money when he does not use an agent. (You have this the other way around) To make it all happen for him, he then has to do what the agent would have done for him anyway, so his expenses will probably be more - in many cases much more as his marketing skills often suck and he ends up travelling all over the world on the show circuit. This is expensive, so he will probably end up square. (or less!) More often than not, as an Outfitter, the only way to make more money, is to sell more hunts - hence using the help from agents. There is no cost that is passed on to the hunter. The Outfitter has a price and that is what the hunter pays - irrespective of whether he books direct with the Outfitter or uses the services of an agent. So in a way, the Outfitter either pays for in-house expenses or pays an agent for services rendered. Hunting with a PH that is not an Outfitter or associated/in service of an Outfitter is illegal in South Africa. (I'm not sure about Namibia as I do not operate there.) Both of these roles require government permits and these are issued to a natural person. An Outfitter has to be a PH, but a PH does not have to be an Outfitter. A client has to contract with an Outfitter for the safari to be legal. One outfit being being cheaper than another is just that - being cheaper. It has nothing to do with the use of an agent or not. I'm sure that with a little more research, you'll find other outfitters that use agents that are cheaper yet. Johan | |||
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Sorry if my last post was confusing. I'll put it another way. Lets say I'm a farmer with a calf for sale. That calf is worth $100. I'm taking it to town to sell. If I sell the calf to my neighbor while taking it to town, I make $100. If I take it to town and sell it at the Auction House, they require 10% of the sale price. So I either sell the calf for $100, pay the auction $10, and only make $90 or I raise the price to $110. The buyer pays the extra $10, and I make $100. I've never said that an agent/outfitter didn't provide a service. I'm just not willing to pay for it. I'll do it myself. I've hunted in SA. I won't go back, because of the silly rules, (one you mentioned,) and the hassles at the Airport. | |||
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TJ If you do it yourself, good for you. No sweat. You pay the same price anyway ... but then, whatever makes it work for you is fine. It is supposed to be a fun thing. And while you are mentioning silly rules and hassles at airports - there may be good reasons for it, but no place on earth beats the USA on that score! Johan | |||
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I don't think any Ph worth his salts is going to give you a discount just because you booked directly with him. I have done it both ways - booked through an agent, and booked directly, and have experience nothing but exceptional service. But, I only hunt with the best in the business | |||
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Saeed, Just curious as to whom you consider the best? You seem to have significant experience. I suppose this also depends on what and where you hunt. Greatly appreciated! EZ | |||
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My comment was a bit tung-in-cheek, although I do consider those who we have hunted with as best. We have hunted with Rosslyn safaris, booked through Klinebergers of Seattle. My Ph was Roy Vincent. We hunted with Roy many times, booked directly with him. We hunted with his son Alan, whom I first met when he was a young boy. We have hunted with Pierre van Tonder, booked through Ray Atkinson, more than once. We have hunted with Peter harris, booked directly with him, mone than once. All the above provided us with the best service one could ever wish for. I would hunt wit any of the above mention gentlemen again with pleasure. And, to me at least, anyone who provides a service that I would wish to enjoy again, is the best. | |||
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Saeed: I definitely agree with your last line. | |||
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