Couldn't get hold of a copy of Sports Afield here in South Africa so my opinion is based on what I read here.
Elephant hunting clients is an absolute minority in the world wide hunting community. Elephant hunting PHs are also in in absolute minority in the world of hunting guides internationally. (those that make DVDs even less)
If Kevin feels that this is a legitimate ethical concern in the hunting world it could have been voiced privately against the PHs concerned( all of them can be contacted easily) or is his target audience elephant hunting clients that have a skewed perception of what elephant hunting should be and transfer that to the PHs? An article like this can be swung by the antis for propaganda all out of proportion. 'Elephants provoked for entertaining blood movies'

It is sad that he couldn't find any more relevant subject for an article, but then ink needs to get on paper to keep the magazines rolling.

Another slant on the subject is that if we continue to question our methods to try and improve them, who can criticize that effort?

465H&H

I join David H. in a healthy belly laugh. He, like Buzz and Ivan knows why.

Having watched a Buzz's DVD's a fair number of times and spent a lot of time in Africa, I do not see him attempting to provoke charges at all. Hell, if anything , he is as ultra safe as one can get hunting elephants and cow elephants in particular . Absurdly incorrect to say otherwise .

Ivan on the other hand might be viewed differently solely because he gets close to elephants. I don't think he is trying to provoke charges at all. I think he is trying to get clients with doubles close. Isn't that what hunting with doubles is all about ?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In this case, I disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:


It is interesting to note though that both Ivan and myself will do more elephant in a single season then Kev has done in his life.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Having watched a Buzz's DVD's a fair number of times and spent a lot of time in Africa, I do not see him attempting to provoke charges at all. Hell, if anything , he is as ultra safe as one can get hunting elephants and cow elephants in particular. Absurdly incorrect to say otherwise.

I have hunted a dozen elephants with Buzz on five different hunts over the last five years. We have been charged in earnest on one occasion. On that one occasion, we were actually backing out away from the herd and trying to put some distance between us and the herd when a cow charged and we had to shoot her. Those that equate wanting to get in close with attempting to provoke a charge are seriously misguided.

To me provoking a charge means having the intent to cause the elephant to charge. The other side of the coin is that you may not want a charge but the closer you get to cows the more likely they are to charge. Isn't the end result the same? I'm not pointing the finger at any one especially Buzz or Ivan. Just questioning on how we can reduce the number of charges and unintended kills of cows. I think that is or should be our goal.

465H&H

I am in Chapter 25 of CM Safaris' video Zambezi Extreme. Alan Shearing and I took a full herd charge lead by the Matriarch after I dropped a tuskless at about 25 yards. We did nothing intentional to provoke the charge other than me shooting a tuskless and both of us being out in the open. It just happened. IMO 25 yards is about the fartherest away you should be from an elephant when you pull the trigger. What that video does not show is that the charging Matriarch that Alan shot in self defense had a wire snare deeply imbedded around it's front left foot. I can't imagine either Buzz or Ivan intentionally provoking a charge. I think the accusations are baseless.

Hunting elephant up close is in my opinion the only way. Standing back at 45 yds. or further with a scope makes it so impersonal. I have been privileged to harvest two bull eles. This is the only way one should hunt such a majestic animal.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
how we can reduce the number of charges and unintended kills of cows. I think that is or should be our goal.

465H&H

+1

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To me provoking a charge means having the intent to cause the elephant to charge. The other side of the coin is that you may not want a charge but the closer you get to cows the more likely they are to charge. Isn't the end result the same? I'm not pointing the finger at any one especially Buzz or Ivan. Just questioning on how we can reduce the number of charges and unintended kills of cows. I think that is or should be our goal.

465H&H

The implied conclusion here is that getting in close, since getting in close is more likely to result in a charge, is tantamount to inciting a charge. Is the follow on that we should not hunt elephant cows up close? I cannot accept that line of reasoning.

To me, my opinion, the epitome of elephant hunting is (i) a tracking hunt that involves following the spore to catch the elephant, (ii) once the elephant has been located making a stalk and getting in close, and (iii) making a frontal or side brain shot with a nitro express double rifle. I realize others hunt elephant at night or do a heart/lung shot at 75 yards with a .375 H&H, if that works for them great but that is just not my view of what the essence of elephant hunting is all about. Getting in close is integral to what makes elephant hunting what it is.

One has a right to one’s personal preferences. Not sure that I am moved by the ethical ethos espoused by anyone when it comes to the weapons I choose to hunt with or the method of hunt I prefer.

Where and how I legally choose to learn about killing DG up close, in specific dangerous situations, is my personal choice along with my selected PH. I would select him based upon his knowledge base and the lessons/skillset I want to learn. If a camera is present of course they are aware of the camera but that does not drive a hunt.

This may come off as harsh or ill-mannered so I will apologize up front. I am not overly concerned about someone’s opinion of my personal quest for answers that matter most to me. If I want to get close and learn specific skills I know with whom I should hunt. If I do not want such experiences a simple conversation with the PH is all that is necessary.

Since the writer narrowed his scope of the articles subject matter the implied subjects of it were just as well mentioned by name. If reaching out to those the writer suggested were problematic was the intention a phone call or email would have been simple enough. That may have resulted in a rather short phone call and probably would not have made it to a forum discussion. Perhaps in that regard the article has had its true intended effect revealed.

The article contains the writer’s opinion and I welcome his freedom to express it. With all due respect, it does not however mean much to me personally.

Shawn

Speaking of provoking charges , I am told that Jonny Hulme tracker has been known to stalk up to an elephant cow and pluck a hair from the tail then run like hell while laughing the entire way. Further, I am told this is on video. I have to see this .

This same tracker pulled another stunt on video. For the life of me, I can't remember what it was.

I got this straight from Alistair & Jonny while we were quail hunting earlier in the year . I tend to believe it.

I was with Kevin when he came up with this article. We were in Atlanta at the Atlanta safari show the weekend after DSC. I have also heard Kevin speak highly of Ivan, Buzz, and Johan, Other PH's as well. I don't believe he is refering to these three in this article. His concern as he told me was of PH's not being professional on or off the camera. The video we had to watch, over and over, both days of the show was from an oufitter and PH that so far has not been mentioned here. I haven'y known Kevin as long as some here have. My opinion of him is he is a first class guy that has the "Big Picture" in mind regarding African hunting.

First of all, let me preface my comments with the fact that I have not read Kevin Robertson's piece in the latest Sport's Afield. I will, but I haven't yet. I've tried to find it, but apparently the latest issue has not been distributed in my area as yet. All I can find is the May/June issue. I think that I have a pretty good idea what he has written, however, based upon the reports here. I have had similar feelings for a long time. I will add that I do not personally know Kevin Robertson.

I really feel for guys like David Fulson (who I do not know and, to my knowledge, have never met)as he apparently relies on making and selling hunting videos for at least a portion of his living. It is almost an impossible task. Hunting is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, a spectator sport. The challenge to the videographer is to figure out how to make what is, for everyone but the participant, very boring, into something exciting for the spectator. I suppose there are a few "tricks of the trade," but in the end, the pursuit of man over animal, properly and ethically done, is akin to watching grass grow for the casual observer.

While I have tagged along on elephant hunts, I have never hunted elephant wit a license in my pocket. Obviously, I have never shot one. I have not done so for several reasons. Reason one, two, three and up to about a dozen is that I can't afford to hunt elephant. Reason thirteen is that the one opportunity that I did have to hunt an elephant -- with all the fees paid for me -- I had to turn down. The reason -- I didn't like the manner in which the animal was to be hunted. Was I absolutely crazy in my decision? Well, perhaps. Some of my friends that know about the situation think me stark raving nuts. Do I regret having done so -- no, I don't. At least, most of the time I don't.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that I am not an experienced elephant hunter. I have accompanied an elephant hunter on his quest, tracking and getting close enough to decide whether the bulls we located were big enough to take or not (he had a 50 lb. per side minimum). They weren't, as it turned out. I learned that one doesn't wade into a herd of cows and calves, unless on expects to initiate a reaction.

I have noted over the past few years, the condemnation of Mark Sullivan on these and other pages. If he actually did what he is accused of doing, he deserves condemnation. I know Mark casually, I've chatted with him on several occasions, and he seems to be a very nice guy. I have never hunted with him though. I know a few guys that have hunted with him, however, and to a man, they think he is great. Not one that I've spoken with had a single negative thing to say about him. Having said that, I see no significant difference in what he is accused of, and the apparent manner in which cow elephants are being hunted these days, except possibly in degree.

As previously stated, the fact that routine hunting videos are boring requires some way of "spicing" them up a bit. What could be more exciting than footage of our homespun Nimrod sorting out a life threatening charge at eight paces, by planting a slug in the brain of the offending animal? No question that it is exciting footage. Facing down an elephant charge would awaken a corpse. The real question is though, was it necessary in the conduct of the hunt, or, in the filming of the hunt! There can be, and usually is, a big difference in those two motivators.

I am not confusing getting in close and personal, with intentionally initiating a charge either. I do know the difference.I concur with the old adage by someone that goes like, "get as close as you can Laddie, then get ten yards closer." However, there is a big difference in getting as close as you can covertly, by using stealth, cover, concealment, and wind direction, and overtly making your presence known, and dealing with the consequences after that.

It must be obvious by now that I'm not a fan of hunting videos. In fairness, however, I must admit that I have never seen the first episode of TAA. It may be the second coming of Gone With The Wind as far as I know. I don't get the Outdoor Channel on my Direct TV connection, nor have I purchased any of the separate videos. The hunting videos that I have watched, none of which were from the TAA producers, were, in my opinion and only my opinion, pretty poor. I'm not a hunting videographer; surprise, surprise, but that has to be one of the most difficult occupations extant, for reasons already stated.

Everyone has to do their thing their own way. So long as it doesn't affect my family or me directly, and is legal and ethical, I could care less what they do or how they do it. A quick word on ethics is necessary here. Legalities are pretty simple, its either legal or it isn't. Ethical conduct is a totally different matter. Basically, each individual determines what is, or is not, to them and them alone, ethical or unethical. What I believe is unethical applies to me and the way I conduct myself, and to no one else.

Personally, I can and do pass on hunting videos. I do so for several reasons, not the least of which is that they are not interesting to me. I do suspect that much goes on behind the scenes to add excitement to the video. Perhaps, if I saw an episode of TAA that Fulson and crew put together, I might change my mind -- but, it pains me to say., I doubt it.

TT

Tsquare2,

Why not just watch a few episodes of TAA so you can get a little perspective? I doubt if it would kill you and maybe it would change your mind. It is not expensive.

Tom,

You know that I respect your views. That said, to say that I have not read the article, not seen an episode of TAA, nor have I seen the videos that appear to be the focus of Robertson's article, really seems to me to make the basis for forming an informed opinion . . . well, next to impossible.

As someone that appreciates fine rifles, what would your reaction be if I said, I have never owned a Maurice Ottmar rifle, in fact I have never even seen one much less handled one. Truth be told I have never even known someone that owned one, but I really have to say I think Maurice Ottmar rifles are the products of shoddy and poor gunsmithing . . . you get the drift.

On this one, we will have to respectfully disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
Reason thirteen is that the one opportunity that I did have to hunt an elephant -- with all the fees paid for me -- I had to turn down. The reason -- I didn't like the manner in which the animal was to be hunted. Was I absolutely crazy in my decision? Well, perhaps. Some of my friends that know about the situation think me stark raving nuts. Do I regret having done so -- no, I don't. At least, most of the time I don't.

TT

Tom,
As someone who is proud to call you a friend and who knows the whole circumstances of the ele hunt proposal you were presented...I give you a tip-of-the-hat.

And...like you...one will never see a camera-man tagging along with me on a hunt. My hunting time is for me personally. But just like you said...each to his own and I don't expect others to adopt my views.

Mike,

And your well know that I respect your views as well. I don't think we have a disagreement. Our difference is one of specifics vs. generalities. You have keyed on specifics, while I am referring to generalities.

Yes, I have not read Kevin's article, only because I can't find a copy in Sierra Vista, AZ. However, it is pretty clear from reading the responses what Kevin's thrust is. Personally, I have felt that way for quite some time.

As far as TAA goes, I only mentioned it in passing for two reasons. One it seems to be a well liked show from responses here on AR, and two, I know that David is involved in the production, and his response to the Robertson piece was one of the more passionate, at least it seemed to me so.

As to your custom rifle metaphor, our difference is that you felt that I have criticized a Maurice Ottmar custom rifle without ever having seen, handled, or shot one. However, I wasn't commenting on Maurice Ottmar, but rather the industry collectively as a whole.

As but a very poor example, I have been hunting since I was six years old, and good Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'll be 74 in a couple months. In all that time, I have never once witnessed a "High Five" in hunting camp or in the field. Yet, on those rare occasions when I do see a TV hunting video, it is generally full of them. That would lead a causal observer to presume they are commonplace. My experience tells me otherwise. Why then are they included? I haven't the foggiest idea. Seems dumb to me.

I really wanted to back out of this discussion but feel I have to make a couple of further comments:

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
The challenge to the videographer is to figure out how to make what is, for everyone but the participant, very boring, into something exciting for the spectator. I suppose there are a few "tricks of the trade," but in the end, the pursuit of man over animal, properly and ethically done, is akin to watching grass grow for the casual observer.

Obviously, we all have different tastes and interests but for me, if I'm going to watch television at all, I for one find hunting videos to be very entertaining compared to the mindless drivel we are bombarded with in the guise of "Reality TV" ranging from a group of strangers thrown together into a house to "See What Happens" to a couple of guys driving around purchasing junk for resale. They will never offer the excitement of being in the field but that is not their intent. I enjoy watching other hunters' pursuits, as long as they are presented intelligently.

I learned that one doesn't wade into a herd of cows and calves, unless one expects to initiate a reaction.

Is your statement being made in support of terminating the hunting of elephant cows? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point of this statement is!

I have noted over the past few years, the condemnation of Mark Sullivan on these and other pages. If he actually did what he is accused of doing, he deserves condemnation. I know Mark casually, I've chatted with him on several occasions, and he seems to be a very nice guy. I have never hunted with him though. I know a few guys that have hunted with him, however, and to a man, they think he is great. Not one that I've spoken with had a single negative thing to say about him. Having said that, I see no significant difference in what he is accused of, and the apparent manner in which cow elephants are being hunted these days, except possibly in degree.

I agree with you about the bashing of Mark Sullivan. I've never met or heard of anyone who has personally hunted with him that has had the first negative thing to say about him. I for one do not believe some of the wilder accusations of him intentionally making poor shots in order to incite a charge. That would certainly be unethical IMO and I would think most would call those actions unethical as well. Again, I don't believe he conducts his hunts in that manner. Where I do disagree with Mark Sullivan's tactics are when a bloodied and wounded Buffalo is found and isolated, then instead of finishing it off, putting it out of misery at the earliest possible time, thereby minimizing the chance of a charge instead of walking up to the WOUNDED Buff until it finally does decide to fight. If you don't see any significant difference in walking up to an isolated, wounded Buffalo until it decides to charge instead of finishing off the WOUNDED AND BLOODIED animal and "the apparent manner in which cow elephants are being hunted these days, except possibly in degree, your sir are absolutely BLIND. In one case, the WOUNDED animal which is no longer being "hunted" but rather being "finished" is being provoked into a charge while in the other case, an unwounded animal, still being "hunted" is being approached into close quarters due to the environment the animal has chosen to conceal itself in and the desire to take the correct animal, thereby being selective in the process of harvesting the animal (I hate that term harvesting but it seems to work best here for what I'm trying to convey). In the Mark Sullivan example, the charge is being provoked in a most obvious manner. It could be avoided by finishing the animal off at the first opportunity. In the Cow Elephant example, no charge is being provoked at all! It sometimes happens due to the requirement of close proximity for the purposes of being selective and nothing more.

As previously stated, the fact that routine hunting videos are boring requires some way of "spicing" them up a bit. What could be more exciting than footage of our homespun Nimrod sorting out a life threatening charge at eight paces, by planting a slug in the brain of the offending animal? No question that it is exciting footage. Facing down an elephant charge would awaken a corpse. The real question is though, was it necessary in the conduct of the hunt, or, in the filming of the hunt! There can be, and usually is, a big difference in those two motivators.

See my comments above in this post as well as the examples I gave early on in this thread. I cited several charges on current, popular DVD's and I challenge you to defend the position that any of them were anything other than a simple by-product of hunting the animal in the first place. Non of those charges were in anyway provoked. I find Ivan's explanations of encouraging the animal to come toward you out of curiosity, thereby isolating it from the remaining cows, and therefore attempting to remove them from the fray and actually discouraging the remaining cows from getting involved, to be completely logical and an effective method of discouraging unwanted self defense shooting.

I am not confusing getting in close and personal, with intentionally initiating a charge either. I do know the difference.I concur with the old adage by someone that goes like, "get as close as you can Laddie, then get ten yards closer." However, there is a big difference in getting as close as you can covertly, by using stealth, cover, concealment, and wind direction, and overtly making your presence known, and dealing with the consequences after that.

Please cite the specific examples where you are accusing the filmed PHs of participating in "intentionally initiating a charge" for the purposes of getting it on camera! You can't because 1) You haven't watched the shows and / or DVD's you are commenting on and 2) the specific examples do not exist! Any idea how this affects your credibility?

Everyone has to do their thing their own way. So long as it doesn't affect my family or me directly, and is legal and ethical, I could care less what they do or how they do it. A quick word on ethics is necessary here. Legalities are pretty simple, its either legal or it isn't. Ethical conduct is a totally different matter. Basically, each individual determines what is, or is not, to them and them alone, ethical or unethical. What I believe is unethical applies to me and the way I conduct myself, and to no one else.

Again, would you please cite the specific examples of activity in the DVD's and shows concerning elephant hunting that you find to be "unethical"! Do you have a specific case to make or are you just talking?

Personally, I can and do pass on hunting videos. I do so for several reasons, not the least of which is that they are not interesting to me. I do suspect that much goes on behind the scenes to add excitement to the video. Perhaps, if I saw an episode of TAA that Fulson and crew put together, I might change my mind -- but, it pains me to say., I doubt it.

There are many reasons to video hunts. A minority do so for the purposes of commercial distribution. Far more hunts are taped purely for the pleasure of the hunter being able to pop the DVD into the player and relive the experience again and again. Very similar to the motivations we have in preserving our trophies with taxidermy. I find a video of my hunt to rival, if not surpass, taxidermy in perserving the memories of a special time afield. As someone who has had a camera follow me around on a few hunts, I can tell you without the slightest hesitation, that nothing went on "behind the scenes to add excitement to the video" as you put it. Trust me, just being in the presence of elephant in the thick jesse with the intent of shooting one is all the excitement necessary to make a video worth watching.

Let's call this article of Kevin's exactly what it is. An attempt to draw attention to him and away from some of the other PHs who are finding more success today than ole "Docktari". By the way, is giving yourself a name like "Docktari" in the safari industry a self promoting action or what? Let's be honest here, elephant hunting IS about getting in close and interacting to a certain degree with the animals. That's what makes it special and why it is different and so addicting. Remember the idiot a couple of weeks ago that joined AR and in his first post stated elephant hunting isn't for him because he doesn't like to just walk up to an animal and shoot it in the head? That comment was completely void of experience and what draws us to hunting these awesome creatures in the first place. I can't find any examples of provoking elephant charges in any of the DVD's in my collection, and I have several drawers full of them. These DVD's and shows contain footage of the regular clients that come through the respective outfitters' camps unless it happens to be a client with his own TV show. The point being that my hunt as well as yours or anyone else's could end up on one of those DVD's or shows. I have NEVER had the PH say, hey let's do this because it will look more exciting on film and we can market it later. That's total B.S. The camera has been there to record the event as it went down without any "extra excitement" added in. The only time the camera is even noticed is in taking just a few extra seconds prior to shooting in order to make sure the camera man is focused and on the action. That's why you see the hunter or PH look back sometimes. The camera is slower to deploy effectively than the rifle and this is merely an opportunity for him to get set. After all, you can't enjoy reliving your hunt on video if the cameraman doesn't catch the action. Trust me, I've got a lot of video where I made the shot while the camera was still trying to find the animal or focus on it.

The requirement to get close in thick vegetation is part of elephant hunting. A few charges from time to time are going to be part of the deal as the law of averages apply. Nothing more or less. Certainly different from provoking a wounded and suffering buffalo into a fight. Anyone who has actually watched a few shows or DVDs can see that. If the possibility of an unprovoked charge is something you can't live with, then I would just stay away from elephant hunting! But for "Docktari" I would suggest that attempting to make others look bad does not necessarily make you look good. Especially when the accusations are trumped up!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


Let's call this article of Kevin's exactly what it is. An attempt to draw attention to him and away from some of the other PHs who are finding more success today than ole "Docktari". By the way, is giving yourself a name like "Docktari" in the safari industry a self promoting action or what? Let's be honest here, elephant hunting IS about getting in close and interacting to a certain degree with the animals.

Todd,

If you don't know TSquare2, let me just tell you he is a gentleman, a very experienced hunter, rifleman extraordinare, and a writer. And...it is not characteristic for him to get into these discussions on this forum...so he must have strong convictions on this subject. In his writing...he has had the chance to visit with many PH's. Hopefully without putting words in his mouth...I think he is also expressing the opinion of PH's he is acquainted with who DO have the equivalent lifetime experience with ele as those in question.

Really though...I am trying to stay out of this discussion...just had to be an ally for my friend.

quote:

I can't find any examples of provoking elephant charges in any of the DVD's in my collection, and I have several drawers full of them.

I should let this drop too and I have nothing against any PH but this shows YOUR lack of experience. Nor am I going to point any elephants that were provoked into charging on any DVD!

Okay, please don't "provoke me" into getting into more trouble.

Just a point Mr. Williams, the nick name " Docktari" was bestowed upon the man, as is the custom of Afrian folk, because Kevin is a qualified veterinarian. I wonder if he really has to draw "attention" to himself.

Bulwana.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Todd,

If you don't know TSquare2, let me just tell you he is a gentleman, a very experienced hunter, rifleman extraordinare, and a writer. And...it is not characteristic for him to get into these discussions on this forum...so he must have strong convictions on this subject. In his writing...he has had the chance to visit with many PH's. Hopefully without putting words in his mouth...I think he is also expressing the opinion of PH's he is acquainted with who DO have the equivalent lifetime experience with ele as those in question.

Really though...I am trying to stay out of this discussion...just had to be an ally for my friend.

Lane,

AR is at its best when knowledgable and experienced sportsmen give insight through their opinions. Unfortunately, we have all seen the opposite of that too often. As such, there are a number of folks on this forum whom's opinions I really place value upon. You and Mike Jines are certainly at the top of that list for me. I did notice the deference both of you showed to TSquare2 and his comments so I realized I was probably missing some background information in his post as I don't know him at all.

I didn't mean to disrespect TSquare2. I was attempting to draw the discussion to citing specific examples of unethical behavior since the blanket accusation of same had been thrown out. Some of those being accused, or rather implied of being accused, are my friends as well. The discussion was going further and further into pile on mode without the first specific example of inciting an elephant charge being cited.

One of the differences with the DVD's and TV shows depicting African Dangerous Game as opposed to the bubba White Tailed Deer shows is that 99% of them are simply excerpts of the hunts undertaken by the everyday clients that come through the outfitters camp. Some of those everyday clients elect to have their hunt taped for later enjoyment. Some of those hunts contain interesting events from the day afield. None are being directed to contain any "special" adventure or "extra" excitement. Accusing certain PHs who specialize in elephant hunting of spicing things up for the camera is contrary to what I have experienced in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I can't find any examples of provoking elephant charges in any of the DVD's in my collection, and I have several drawers full of them.

I should let this drop too and I have nothing against any PH but this shows YOUR lack of experience. Nor am I going to point any elephants that were provoked into charging on any DVD!

Okay, please don't "provoke me" into getting into more trouble.

Will, I suppose you and I see different things when it comes to video evidence. A perfect example would be your insistence that the 2 remaining cows in my first cow hunt video were calves; even maintaining that position after indisputable evidence to the contrary was shown when the two of them ran off with their calves, one dependent and one marginally so. I will certainly grant you have more experience than I when it comes to elephant, but even I have enough experience to know that elephant calves don't have calves!

Or did you think that video was "photo shopped" as well?

They looked like calves to me but you were there. Goes to show you how deceptive video can be!

I don't remember what exactly I said, but you apparently do. Keep track of my every word. It will serve you well.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
They looked like calves to me but you were there. Goes to show you how deceptive video can be!

I don't remember what exactly I said, but you apparently do. Keep track of my every word. It will serve you well.

I do tend to remember things people say! It helps me remember whose opinions have merit and whose don't!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Todd,

If you don't know TSquare2, let me just tell you he is a gentleman, a very experienced hunter, rifleman extraordinare, and a writer. And...it is not characteristic for him to get into these discussions on this forum...so he must have strong convictions on this subject. In his writing...he has had the chance to visit with many PH's. Hopefully without putting words in his mouth...I think he is also expressing the opinion of PH's he is acquainted with who DO have the equivalent lifetime experience with ele as those in question.

Really though...I am trying to stay out of this discussion...just had to be an ally for my friend.

Lane,

AR is at its best when knowledgable and experienced sportsmen give insight through their opinions. Unfortunately, we have all seen the opposite of that too often. As such, there are a number of folks on this forum whom's opinions I really place value upon. You and Mike Jines are certainly at the top of that list for me. I did notice the deference both of you showed to TSquare2 and his comments so I realized I was probably missing some background information in his post as I don't know him at all.

I didn't mean to disrespect TSquare2. I was attempting to draw the discussion to citing specific examples of unethical behavior since the blanket accusation of same had been thrown out. Some of those being accused, or rather implied of being accused, are my friends as well. The discussion was going further and further into pile on mode without the first specific example of inciting an elephant charge being cited.

One of the differences with the DVD's and TV shows depicting African Dangerous Game as opposed to the bubba White Tailed Deer shows is that 99% of them are simply excerpts of the hunts undertaken by the everyday clients that come through the outfitters camp. Some of those everyday clients elect to have their hunt taped for later enjoyment. Some of those hunts contain interesting events from the day afield. None are being directed to contain any "special" adventure or "extra" excitement. Accusing certain PHs who specialize in elephant hunting of spicing things up for the camera is contrary to what I have experienced in the field.

465H&H[/QUOTE]

The implied conclusion here is that getting in close, since getting in close is more likely to result in a charge, is tantamount to inciting a charge. Is the follow on that we should not hunt elephant cows up close? I cannot accept that line of reasoning.

To me, my opinion, the epitome of elephant hunting is (i) a tracking hunt that involves following the spore to catch the elephant, (ii) once the elephant has been located making a stalk and getting in close, and (iii) making a frontal or side brain shot with a nitro express double rifle. I realize others hunt elephant at night or do a heart/lung shot at 75 yards with a .375 H&H, if that works for them great but that is just not my view of what the essence of elephant hunting is all about. Getting in close is integral to what makes elephant hunting what it is.[/QUOTE]

+1

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
465H&H

The implied conclusion here is that getting in close, since getting in close is more likely to result in a charge, is tantamount to inciting a charge. Is the follow on that we should not hunt elephant cows up close? I cannot accept that line of reasoning.

To me, my opinion, the epitome of elephant hunting is (i) a tracking hunt that involves following the spore to catch the elephant, (ii) once the elephant has been located making a stalk and getting in close, and (iii) making a frontal or side brain shot with a nitro express double rifle. I realize others hunt elephant at night or do a heart/lung shot at 75 yards with a .375 H&H, if that works for them great but that is just not my view of what the essence of elephant hunting is all about. Getting in close is integral to what makes elephant hunting what it is.[/QUOTE]

+1 [/QUOTE]

The above quote credited to me isn't mine but belongs to MJines!

465H&H

You hunt cows up close so you can make an accurate brain shot, if that is the shot you want. John Taylor 101.

There are lots of reasons to brain shot an elephant just as there are reasons to take a lung or heart shot.

But sometimes cows just charge for no apparent reason, including cows with no calf.

There are a few guys around that can make the frontal brain shot with any certainty in a charge, but not many.

And it matters not .... well, we'll skip that.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
465H&H

The implied conclusion here is that getting in close, since getting in close is more likely to result in a charge, is tantamount to inciting a charge. Is the follow on that we should not hunt elephant cows up close? I cannot accept that line of reasoning.

To me, my opinion, the epitome of elephant hunting is (i) a tracking hunt that involves following the spore to catch the elephant, (ii) once the elephant has been located making a stalk and getting in close, and (iii) making a frontal or side brain shot with a nitro express double rifle. I realize others hunt elephant at night or do a heart/lung shot at 75 yards with a .375 H&H, if that works for them great but that is just not my view of what the essence of elephant hunting is all about. Getting in close is integral to what makes elephant hunting what it is.

+1 [/QUOTE]

The above quote credited to me isn't mine but belongs to MJines!

465H&H[/QUOTE]

I don't blame you, most of the time I do not even want to be responsible for what I have to say.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
465H&H

The implied conclusion here is that getting in close, since getting in close is more likely to result in a charge, is tantamount to inciting a charge. Is the follow on that we should not hunt elephant cows up close? I cannot accept that line of reasoning.

To me, my opinion, the epitome of elephant hunting is (i) a tracking hunt that involves following the spore to catch the elephant, (ii) once the elephant has been located making a stalk and getting in close, and (iii) making a frontal or side brain shot with a nitro express double rifle. I realize others hunt elephant at night or do a heart/lung shot at 75 yards with a .375 H&H, if that works for them great but that is just not my view of what the essence of elephant hunting is all about. Getting in close is integral to what makes elephant hunting what it is.

+1

The above quote credited to me isn't mine but belongs to MJines!

465H&H[/QUOTE]

I don't blame you, most of the time I do not even want to be responsible for what I have to say. [/QUOTE]


MJines,
I have always appreciated your sense of humour!!!!!!


465H&H

Good points on both sides. My sense is that, as in most debates of this kind, the truth lies somewhere in the muddling middle.

Cows or should I say tuskless are bullied by the big guys for food. Soo When someone smaller comes on, Guess what? a charge!!!

Mike