Ladies and Gentlemen,

While watching a number of hunting videos, it looks like many PH are far too quick on the trigger.

I just wonder if this is done just for the camera - that they are expected to shoot too.

I am glad to say that none of the PH I've had the pleasure of hunting with have not done this.

Any PH I hunt with starts filling my animals full of holes and he will be paying the trophy fees. I don't hunt dangerous game and have never had any problems with ethical kills on plains game. A trigger happy PH would be a menace. He can hunt on his own time. My last PH, Graham Sales of Madubula Safari's, had to finish off my hunting partner's Warthog with his 375H&H on the last day due to an unusual situation, but that was an exception to the rules.



I'd enjoy a Cape Buff hunt at some point and would expect a different mindset, but only if things looked like they were going to get out of hand...his call.

The contraction of "MS" was bound to happen as a result of many of them being diagnosed as already having "AIDS" (Almighty International Dollar Syndrome). A sickening condition, indeed.

I had the incident once on a 16 animal hunt. My son wounded a wildebeast and the PH shot rather quickly. I had a heart to heart with the PH and told him not to shoot too quickly, let the boy learn that the first shot is the important one. No more problems.

This is, to some extent, the result of young PHs, fresh out of school, many of which have shot less game than the client and wanting to play....It is a shame that such a proud profession has diluted itself to such behavior. These same PH's have more stories of daring do, than some of the old timers who have been hunting for 40 years, hmmmmmm?

This is not acceptable behavior..I know for a fact that one of my favorite PHs, Pierre van Tonder has not fired a shot in 6 years at a clients animal and he hunts mostly dangerous game...His bubble is about 10 ft. head on....This does not include me however, he would rather shoot a buffalo out from under me than inherit an oil well, but then I would do him likewise, in fact I have.......

Everyone is different. I had a ph that was a little too quick to help me shoot a Buffalo, on two seperate occasions. It didn't bother me because I told him before the hunt, "If it looks like I need help, by all means, have at it."

I did not consider either situation to be lacking in shot placement or follow up time. Ironically, he missed both times. Once he told me he did not hit the Buff (Very fast snap shot at a Buff disappearing in the bush) and once the video clearly showed his bullet destroying a tree about 20 yards in front of him, that Buff was 100 yds away. There was no way that bullet made it to the Buffalo.

Then there was a third time where we both took turns filling a Buff full of lead. It was not a bad initial shot, on the contrary, it was textbook perfect. However, this was a textbook that the Buffalo had not read. I had no problems with him shooting at that Buffalo.

I had a ph tell me once, "I do not shoot the clients animal." I told him the same thing I told the other ph. "If I need help, I will expect you to shoot."

The key is defining what "help" is. To each ph that is different. Set it at the beginning of the hunt, not as you are making your final stalk on the herd.

You can not complain after the shot, unless you were clear before the hunt began what you expect of your ph.

I've heard about this and indeed saw it regarding another fellows PH, but I have luckily had no difficulties. I do make it a point to bring this issue up early with the PH (or outfitter/guide, as it's not limited to Africa). I've found it seems to get the job done.

First, what does "MS" stand for? (Hate to show my ignorance,
but what the heck)

Second, the first thing I tell the PH is that I only have two rules:
Rule #1: He, the PH, absolutely does not shoot unless it is obvious that either his or his employees lives are in danger.

Rule #2: Except for Rule #1, he, the PH, is the boss. Meaning, I will do what he says because my assumption is he
knows more about the game, terrain, etc. than I do.

I have never had a problem and we have always had a great time. I just think it needs to be spelled out very clearly on the front end.

Wes

Mark Sullivan.

I always discuss with the PH on the way to camp from the airport/airstrip. It's best that everyone understand the guidelines for 'letting' the PH shoot.

George

Ms stands for Mark Sullivan. Just in case you did not know, he makes a lot of videos of animals charges, and he shoots most of the animals on film himself.

The films I have seen, every single charge was avoidable.

Like yourself, right from my very first safari, I told the PH that he should conduct the hunt the way he thinks best, and I will tag along and do all the shooting.

This has worked wonderfully well so far - for me at least. And despite the fact that I have shot over 130 dangerous game animals, we have never had a single charge from any animal I have wounded.

As Homer Simpson would say, "DOH"!!!!

Thanks,
Wes

Thanks! I knew what we were talking about here, but I didn't know what the "MS" was either.

Given an experienced PH I would trust his judgement and tell him so upfront. I would not want him to shoot too quickly but a follow-up shot by the PH that .....

(1) saves a long and time consumer tracking job works in the clients favor or (2) stops a wounded animal from leaving the concession area.

Ethically we need to keep in mind that a wounded animal should be dispatched as quickly as possible and financially we need to remember (1) an animal wounded and not recovered costs you money and probably means you can't shoot another, (2) time spent on a lengthy tracking job is time you aren't hunting and while it isn't "wasted" time, it's time that could be used better.

I think way too many people let their ego get in the way when in reality they should practice more, be discriminating on what kind of shots they take and quit using pea-shooters for hunting.

This illness should be fatal.

I find it distastefull that one should even have to discuss such things with a trained PH, as PH stands for Professional Hunter, therefore he should know when to shoot and when not to shoot...it is not his hunt, it is your hunt...

Anyway the good ones do not do this, end of story...

This is more correctly called Sullivans virus. It is now carried by the mosquitoes in southern africa.Usually only affects young ph" as it also diminishes the tip at the end of the hunt.

Out of the three PHs I have had, none have shown this malady. One was very experienced, one mid and the other newish and young.

One did shoot at a wounded wildebeest which was very lucky as his wound caused a slight blood trail. The wound I caused created next to no blood at all after a short while. I had no problem with him shooting at it.

Take a guess !!!!!
A hunter recently to Namibia, wanting to hunt plains game, insisted on using his all beloved double rifle, which was actually constructed to shoot dangerous game on short distance. Furthermore, he told the Namibian PH that he shouldn`t even dare shooting at the animal if it wouldn`t go down instantly. In other words, you tell me if the trophy is okay and I`ll do the rest of it.
What happened then blows my top!!!
After wounding a Gemsbuck with his ??? NE on short distance, the PH instantly took up the spoor with his trackers, wanting to get the animal down as soon as possible. When he noticed that the hunter didn`t follow up, he asked him what his problem was. Simple answer from the hunter: I`m not here for walking!!!!

Now gentlemen, there is an unwritten law that everybody involved directly or indirectly to a safari keeps his mouth shut about the hunter as to his dos and don`ts. At least in public!!!!!!
Seeing that this forum is public, I will not mention his name. However, take a guess and I will inform the person with the correct guess via PM.
Little hint: Most of you have at least heard of him!!!!!!

This is evident on the Capstick video on elephant hunting. On Jerry Heiner's elephant, Jerry shoots, (elephant @50 yds) and at Jerry's 2nd shot, (elephanht still at 50 yds) the gun bearer shoots almost simultaneously. You can hear and see it clearly. Given then bull was a big one and never indicated a direct charge, I would have been slightly pissed to dig someone elses lead out of my bull. Call it vanity but i'm the one paying the fees. _Baxter

The other side of the coin......

Most clients can't shoot well enough with their big bores or when faced with a DG at 30 paces start shaking so bad they end up shooting bad. When you are hunting DG there is no margin for that kind of error. In those situations, a PH that does not back you up is reckless.

Besides, most of us wouldn't be able to recognise when a situation becomes potentially dangerous. and I am not talking of only wounded game! Remember, that the trick is to interupt that process BEFORE it becomes dangerous and that is what "experienced" ph's know how to do. Once you have crossed that line, a client has little rights to make demands....

Too many of us think we "know it all" and can "do it all" because we have "done it before". Shooting 100+ DG under the instruction and guiding of a PH over 20+ years does not qualify us to their level of expertise! There are a lot more aspects to take into consideration like understanding the habits of your quarry and especially being able to "read" their "body language". This can be learned to a certain extent through experience by undertaking a few safaris but never to the level of an experienced African hand. Let us not forget most of the "good" ph's were born in the wild and have lived around these animals one way or another all their life. They "know" the animals like most of us know our pet dog.

Happy hunting!

Zagaya,
I think one has to differentiate a bit. I am not a Greenpeace activist, hell no, but from my point of view as a hunter, you have the responsibility of putting a quick end to what you have started. How many creatures end up having a slow and painful death because of the hunter instructing his PH not to shoot? If I am too slow putting in another shot, or my capabilities have decreased because of my diet or whatever, I would be glad to have somebody next to me to clean up the mess I initiated. If I have the chance of doing it myself, then yes, I would be pissed off when somebody interferes.
Regarding the financial side of it, yes, it is your money. But keep in mind that most PH have more experience than their clients and that they are the ones responsible for their clients health.

Kamaatu - Okay, I'll bite, educated guess via pm on the way, based on a story I heard from a PH in Namibia...

Little hint on the sideline,
the hunter himself is a PH in another country

kamaatu

If you have a name shoot it out, or don't. Guessing games that hurt innocent peoples reputations are for children.

The one thing about PHs backing you up is that, as a group, they are the worst shots most people will ever see. Most of them shoot less than 2 boxes of ammunition a year.

Allright Mikey,
here we go. His forename starts with an M., his surname with an S.!!!!!
Somehow I am not surprised that quite a few people sent me PMs with �that name in their mind. To some the storie was old news.
Reagards K

Mick

I don't know about that. Some of the PH's especially the younger ones shoot a lot, doing culling on concessions. Head shooting sometimes hundreds of head of game in a few days at a time.

I have a mate like that, and he uses his .243 on everything from duiker to eland.

I couldn't do that! I looked through his scope and his reticle wasn't even straight.

So what�s your point NitroX?

K,
You need to see the video to see what I am talking about(don't know if you have)... I know there is no excuse to wounding an animal and making a bad shot etc, but this was Jerry's 3rd elephant and the 2nd shooter wasnt the PH, (Arnie Hubert, Gerhard Leitner, Leitke (sp?)) If you can watch the tape and then tell me Jerry shot slow or the gunbearer needed to shoot I would be interested to ask why.... The elephant hauls ass away, no where near the hunters... I stand by my statements in regards to that video.. there are a million other examples but I am talking about a specific one... _Baxter

In all fairness, they're much like ourselves. Some are gun-nuts, some are strictly out for the hunt and some are a degree of both. Most of the PH's I've known can shoot well but again, some shoot better than others when it truly matters. Hell, part of the reason we hunt DG is to find out if we ourselves have what it takes. All we can do with the next bloke is go by their reputation or just try them on for size and hope for the best. I imagine it's not the easiest thing in the world to hunt for a living when you've got a hunter's heart and can not shoot 98% of the time. To, at long last, scrape up enough cash to get yourself that gun you've longed for and can't use it. My PH once shared with me that he had, never in his life, hunted a big four animal, solely for his own enjoyment .. his own trophy. When I thought about it some, I realized that, as a PH, he was certainly not alone in this. I was present one time, when a fellow hunter gave the last of the 3 tuskless cows he had paid for to his youthful PH as his "tip". Never saw a happier man.

This disease has been around for awhile. Evidenced to me by a ph who shot one horn off my cousin's kudu unneccesarily in 1976.

Bwanamich, well put and right on the money.

As far as PH's being the worst shots?? you must not have hunted with many to make this statement! Yes, I am sure that there are a few that lack experience, but would say they are not the majority by any means. Most of the PH's I know are excellent shots and if given the same shots that clients get on sticks, would be a different story. Most of the shots PH's have to take are usually moving targets in tall grass or thick bush.

My opinion on PH's backing up should not be an issue and can only be left up to the PH that you are hunting with and the situation at that time. If you do not like the actions of your PH or how he conducts a hunt, then do not hunt with him. But, keep in mind that a PH is there to prevent something dangerous from happening and to ethically prevent an animal from escaping or sufferring if necessary. A good PH knows right away what kid of shot you have put in the animal and already knows what kind of situation he is in, and can guess the actions of the animal from that point on.

Defaming someone's huntng ability is not why we are here. The hunter would have told us his version if he wanted to share, that is clearly not the case. Let he who have not sinned cast the first pm!

Maybe I have been hunting with the wrong PH's but all of the guys I have hunted with have been very good shots. I had a young PH take a quick shot on an animal once. I didnt have to say anything. The head ph didnt charge me for the animal and I am sure he had a talk with the young man. I had no intention of ever saying anything about it. These guys have all been very professional. They are however human and can get caught up just like anyone else.

Nickudu,
I completely agree with you. If I where a PH who had never taken a DG, I think it would break my heart to be honest. Kinda makes you feel bad for the PH who hasn't shot a DG, doesn't it?