The PH is paid to do a job ,that is guide the client to the animal .The client has paid to shoot the animal, NOT paid the PH to shoot the Animal!!!!,unless its a life or death situation the PH has NO buisness or Right!! shooting the animal. Some people have to save for years, make big sacrifices, work overtime ,7 days a week to afford a hunt! the last thing you want is some trigger happy PH overtaking YOUR HUNT just because he thought ''oh you might wound the animal ''or ''i thought it might get away so i put an extra in for you ''because if you wound it ,it might cut into my drinking time back at camp'' ,and i dont want to spend the rest of ''my day'' tracking a wounded animal some dumb client, who the only bush hes ever seen is in Central Park.Maybe ''Buddy hunts '' might be the way of the future, where the client pays a lesser trophy fee and the PH can join in WWWWWWWoooooooooohhhhhhhhooooo !!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by C.Wathen:
Nickudu,
I completely agree with you. If I where a PH who had never taken a DG, I think it would break my heart to be honest. Kinda makes you feel bad for the PH who hasn't shot a DG, doesn't it?

Why would you be hunting DG with a PH who has never shot any DG?

I believe it is silly to believe that any DG PH has not shot any dangerous game, especially since that is a requirement, in Zim anyway.

Maybe some have not shot as many DG animals as their client but there are also many very experienced PH's.

I wouldn't put it past some PH's to get in on the action unnecessarily, but sometimes that action is needed. It gets boring watching the client shoot everything and in a way I can understand their apetite for some excitement.

But involvement by a PH can be avoided almost completely by dropping the animal with the first shot!

quote:

But involvement by a PH can be avoided almost completely by dropping the animal with the first shot!

Bingo. Spot on.

I used to be a guide for Brown Bear and Dalls Sheep. I quit.
A few of the idiots I guided had no respect at all for animal they were shooting, and were terrible shots. They shoot, if they are lucky, the animal falls. The "Hero" pics are taken, then they are ready to go to camp and have a whisky.(Nothing against whisky, after the work is done, I've been known to have one or two myself.)
If you made a bad shot on either animal, I shoot. If you don't like it, leave and don't come back. I will not have a wounded animal stumbling around just to satisfy your ego.
Maybe my attitude was the reason I would not make a good guide?

You need to remember that every client and every circumstance is different. I always discuss back up shots with the client before we ever go out hunting and there are some who say as long as I get my bullet in first I want the PH to stop the animal if it runs. Others (more commonly) want to do all the shooting themselves. - It's their hunt and their choice.

Then there's the circumstance of, if (for example) you're right on the edge of your boundary and the adjoining area is a photographic area with lots of dopey tourists or locals wandering around.......should the PH then allow a wounded "Hipporhinosaphant" to get into that area where he just might endanger the life of a third party?

Then there's yet another circumstance where perhaps the client can't shoot for shit or has no self control and blazes away despite being told not to shoot yet - (these things happen, not often, but they do happen) and a bad shot has meant that an animal is going to suffer for days before it dies. - don't forget that a PH also has a responsibility to the animals he hunts, the Game Dept and to the landowner/leaseholder as well as to the client.

Part of being a "Professional" Professional Hunter is being aware of these things and acting accordingly. Which is why it's so important to discuss these things with the client before you go out hunting.

If there's one truism about Africa, it's never say never and never say always.......

I sympathize with the PH. I can imagine, from my brief experience as an instructor, that some clients are pretty bad. Sure, they pay the bills, but they can't shoot, or can't walk, or .. who knows what. Any PH sizes up the client and I bet the more experienced ones adjust what they will do based on their intuitive judgement of the client, not so much on the instructions the client might give him before the hunt. Someone's life in danger can't be the only criterion, as others have pointed out here.

" he had, never in his life, hunted a big four animal, solely for his own enjoyment .. his own trophy."

You guys still can't read.

Nickudu,

Hey, don't bore me with facts!

"I was present one time, when a fellow hunter gave the last of the 3 tuskless cows he had paid for to his youthful PH as his "tip". Never saw a happier man."

I'm guessing at who the two were, but a good deed, indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:...despite the fact that I have shot over 130 dangerous game animals, we have never had a single charge from any animal I have wounded.

It was not meant to be a brag, but that is a VERY impressive number. And absolutely believable too.

That being a year ago, I guess you can add another dozen buffalo to the tally!

I do support this mans opinion in general. I always had an understanding before the hunt. regarding ellies, buff and lion; YOU DROP IT: i DON'T SHOOT. If is see it hightailing for the bush; then it is "open season for me!" This did not apply to game other than that above. Many times we would spend many hours tracking and finishing off various impala, hartebeeste etc. But no worries. It was all part of the game, and it was unlikely that the wounded, possibly lost impala would pose a threat for others walking through the bush. With a buff, ellie or lion high-tailing it after being wounded I derived great pleasure in drilling it as many times up the back end as possible. Possibly the most fun I had on safari. Perhaps I don't really qualify as a PC PH!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The other side of the coin......<br /><br />Most clients can't shoot well enough with their big bores or when faced with a DG at 30 paces start shaking so bad they end up shooting bad. When you are hunting DG there is no margin for that kind of error. In those situations, a PH that does not back you up is reckless. <br /><br />Besides, most of us wouldn't be able to recognise when a situation becomes potentially dangerous. and I am not talking of only wounded game! Remember, that the trick is to interupt that process BEFORE it becomes dangerous and that is what "experienced" ph's know how to do. Once you have crossed that line, a client has little rights to make demands....<br /><br />Too many of us think we "know it all" and can "do it all" because we have "done it before". Shooting 100+ DG under the instruction and guiding of a PH over 20+ years does not qualify us to their level of expertise! There are a lot more aspects to take into consideration like understanding the habits of your quarry and especially being able to "read" their "body language". This can be learned to a certain extent through experience by undertaking a few safaris but never to the level of an experienced African hand. Let us not forget most of the "good" ph's were born in the wild and have lived around these animals one way or another all their life. They "know" the animals like most of us know our pet dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <br /><br />Happy hunting!

These comments only pertains to dangerous game. When hunting elephant the guidance I have given the PH is that if I signal to him that I am going for the brain he should be ready to shoot. If the elephant does not go down on the shot and is heading for the thick jess he should shoot to anchor it even though I will be trying to do the same. IMHO one does not fool around with wounded elephants in the jess. Remember your life is not the only one that will be endangered. In equal danger is the PH and the unarmed trackers. In this situation there is no place for inflated egos!

465H&H

I dont' think I would care if the PH shot or not. I have only killed 3 dangerous game animals. A buffalo, a hippo and an elephant. The hippo and elephant obviously didn't need another shot and the buff was gone so quick a second shot would have been very difficult even if it had been needed. I know a killing shot when I fire it and if the beast doesn't fall in his tracks and there is an opportunity for my PH to join in I don't mind the help so the recovery is shorter and we can get back to hunting. My ego isn't so tender I need to be the only one to fling lead at my game. If you made a killing shot who should care how many holes are in the critter...and if your shot wasn't so good you should be grateful for the help.

I have never had any of the 5 PHs I have hunted with ever fire a shot under any circumstances...not even for fun or practice. I am not certain Ganyana would even have fired a shot if the elephant was going to stomp me as he knew where I had my cash stashed. However, if my PHs shot goes off before my first one, then I will congratulate him on a fine trophy.

Perry

Hi Guys

Herwith my two cents worth

I have been a PH for the last 9 years, and before that definetely used a rifle more than most, the first 5 Buffalo and six elephants my pet DG RIFLE ONLY GATHERED DUST, everytime the clients shots were great and their faces in realizing they slayed thier own DG ggreat and then came ele number 7 , client and co hunter stated up front they would do the shooting, I accepted my big mistake, unless he charged I had the most horrifying elephant hunt and still shudders at the thought , both shot like sh.. and wounded the ele we tracked and commenced a sequine of events I will never have myself repeated ever again , after shot number xx I finally said to hell with any tips or favours or anything and put the poor elehant out of his misery and hell, they never even had the decency too apologize for their poor shooting and crappy way of showing respect too one of natures greatest animals.

I will defintaly not ne threatended into accpting those provisos again if you want too hunt see that you shoot good enough and practice enough and show respect too the animals you hunt by killing them decenlty and as humanely as possible that is your hunters rights, and not enjoy puttting as many shots as necessary into their departing backsides

I know some DG PHs that can't shoot all that well, and I know a lot of clients that can shoot circles around many PHs...

Most PHs can shoot well enough, many can shoot very well indeed, but go to a rifle shoot, double rifle shoot, turkey shoot and you'll have to hump to keep up here in the good old USA...

Many clients are gun nuts and shooting is there whole life and they are crack shots..Most that I know on this very board will make you work at beating them...We only get about one client a year that cannot shoot, and thats not always his fault, something goes wrong with the gun or whatever and that can happen to anyone.

People are people, some can and some cannot, no matter what the sport or their profession..some are better than others, so making blanket statments just doesn't fly...

The old client can't shoot, or the old local boys around Idaho saying the non-residents can't shoot is just a sign of their own weak self esteem..It makes them look bigger in the listeners eyes!

I prefer to judge each person by his actions.

What about "Buffalo fever"
I'm pretty sure I'll have a bad case of it when I ever get to hunt one.

I have to agree with Ray, I don't believe in blanket statements over people in any profession, except maybe IRS agents. I have a friend who as a PH had the front sight knocked off his rifle during a hunt, he wasn't all that concerned since as he put it,"if I HAVE to shoot, I won't need the sights". Personally I couldn't care less how my PH could shoot at 200 yards, I want to know how well he shoots under pressure at less than 20 yards!

quote:

" he had, never in his life, hunted a big four animal, solely for his own enjoyment .. his own trophy."

You guys still can't read.

Yeah, and the cobbler's kids have no shoes and many a butcher never gets to eat anything but tongue and heart.

I had just the opposite happen in Namibia recently. I shot a kudu a bit far back and the PH reached him first. This kid was 21 and fresh out of PH school. He was very patient, told me to settle down (after running up a steep incline, pissed at myself for not shooting better) and said "c'mon you need to be the one to finish this one, take a deep breath and relax."

Very mature, and I have to admit comforting. If I were him I probably would have finished that bull, even though he was hit hard. The chances of having to chase him all day were great. Anyway, I finished him off, and gave the kid a nice tip.

If you wanna see DG PH`s, you must see what Out of africa adventoures safaris in SA is useing after more than 30 of there PH`s has left them in 2 years!

boerinnibosveld,

Welcome to the forum, the place of endless arguments!

I am a little concerned at the "it is my money, I'll do the shooting..ALL of it" attitude.

Surely we, as hunters, have an ethical duty to our quarrey? That duty being to do EVERYTHING in our power to ensure a clean and quick kill. That includes suitable caliber, suitable distance and suitable shot placement.

Since life (or death) is often not perfect a wounded animal can obviously result, and sometimes one that may suffer greatly and take a long time to die.

Why should our/your/my ego as a Great Hunter get in the way of that ethical duty to a quick and clean kill? Add to that the obvious risk to others that a wounded DG animal may pose...possibly lethal danger.

If possible after-shot tracking should NOT be part of the experience!

I am 100% a believer that if I screw up and wound it and the PH can dispatch it before I can...then go right ahead. So far in my experience (1 whole week of Plains Game!) I have never had to fire a second shot....but one of those animals (an Impala ram) was not so well hit and as it ran off I felt sick to my stomach. The PH never had the opportunity of a shot but if he had done so I would have thanked him for ending the animals suffering not complained. As it turned out the Impala only ran less than 100 yards and was liver shot.

I really do believe that our prime duty is to our quarrey, not to our ego.

Very interesting topic and something that concerned me on my last hunt. It was a plains game hunt only. The PH never fired a shot, but he was pretty close on one occasion due to bad shot-placement from my side.
I made some bad shots on longe range on a Hartm. Mount. Zebra in Namibia, and the zebra was moving away from us and was almost going over a high mountain. I could see the PH shouldering his rifle and aiming. The animal did fell over before it reached the top. I told him I didn`t want him to shoot my animals and he was actually pretty mad at me. I shouldn`t questions his judgement he told me. I partially agreed with him, but wanted to discuss the topic. He told me he would try as best as he could to avoid it, but wouldn`t hesitate if he felt it would be right.
The topic is difficult. As a PH you have to consider the ethical aspects combined with the clients wishes.
That said. I would never put a trophy on my wall, if I had made a bad shot and the PH finished it of. I wouldn`t feel it was mine..
The PH`s should no matter what try as best as possible to avoid firing.
There was an interesting article in the latest edition of the Hunting Report Newsletter on guides in Alaska beeig to trigger happy, and that they had a lot to learn from African PH`s. I have never hunted Alaska, so I can`t speak. But I really hope the African PH`s don`t follow this trend if this is true..

A PH has joined in the shooting of about 2 percent of the animals I have shot.

Personally, I have no problem hanging those animals on my wall. I can look at them and remember an exciting time with a PH that I regard as a friend.

The other African animals I have shot "all by myself" are not any more special to me than those that I got help with.

I did not find them, did not track them and in the majority of the hunts I did not even direct the final stalk, decide which animal to shoot or when to take the shot.

Its all fun and its all a team effort as far as I am concerned. My main concern is that no one gets hurt and the animal doesn't suffer any longer than necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by kamaatu:
Little hint on the sideline,<br />the hunter himself is a PH in another country

What the hell is everybody pussy-footing around about the client was MS!

I prefere to do my own shooting, but there comes a time when everyone needs help, and one is damn lucky to have a good PH on his side on such occasions! In all the guided hunting I have done, only about three shots have been fired on my animals by a Guide/PH. In those cases of all three shots, were needed!

As I said, up front, I prefere to do my own shooting, and this is because most of my over 50 yrs of hunting, I have hunted alone, for the most part. I only started hunting in pairs when I started hunting in Alaska, and that was for safety reasons. Though we hunt in pairs there, if you spot an animal, the shots are yours,all of them. Vice-versa if I spot the animal, much like the bird hunter's manners of if the bird in on my side he's mine, if on your side he's yours.

I have hunted, and do hunt with groups that when an animal jumps, everyone starts shooting, and that is OK with me, because that is the way they like to hunt, but I never fire a shot in group! It seems nobody ever knows who shot the animal, under those cercumstances.

I, like Ray, seldom see anyone on Safari who simply cannot shoot, but there little things PHs see when the gun cases open up that makes them leery of the shooting ability of this new client. That is a better reason for the client test fireing his rifle, than it is to see if it has been damaged. It supplies the PH with some valuable information. Of course the PH is not going to say that to the client.

If I have placed a killing shot on a dangerous animal, I expect the next shot to come from the PH, if the animal doesn't go down, and is close to tight cover. If the animal is in fairly open country, I'll be doing the shooting. If he is coming for "US" then I expect the PH to run out of ammo if necessary, to stop the BITER/STOMPER, and I'll be doing the same thing as fast as I can!

I believe, in the case of this string, the PHs are getting a bad rap, but no worse rap that the client hunter is getting!