I did not want to derail the "Negotiating your Safari" thread so I will ask this question here. Realize I am new to this so try not to beat me up too badly.

If I have already decided the outfit I will book with and have researched them, talked with references, talked directly with the outfit, work with someone that has been to Africa hunting about 10 times, will book my own flights (using mileage) then what else will a booking agent have to offer me?

I realize from the "negotiating" thread that the booking agent is paid by the outfitter, thus theoretically free to me, but if I seem to be getting great information in a timely fashion direct from the outfit (small family owned & operated) why not let them keep the 10-15%?

What am I missing?

Frostbit,

If I remember right from another post you have not been to Africa before. If I'm right the reason to use an agent for you is that you just can't know everything that could be a pitfall until you have been there and done that. Each country offers a different expereince and different set of stumbling blocks. An agent can just make your whole safari experience more fun and far less hassle. There are guys out there that just want the deposit and then they dump you like a hot potato with the safari operator. I think if you make some inquiries you'll find that Adam Clements Safari trackers does not do that. We cover all the prerequisites with you, help with navigating the travel and just give you an educated idea of what the safari will be like.

It does sound like you have covered a great deal of the the facets of your safari but you know a lot of folks do not have the time or inclination to do the work necessary to make an informed decision about what safari to book. That is where I come in.

Don't hesitate to contact me if you think I might be able to answer some questions for you. A dialogue with me costs you nothing.

Mark

P.S. I lived in Dillingham, AK for 22 years.

There is definitely a time and a place to use a reliable established booking agent who has personal knowledge of the area and the outfit that you are going to use.

The problem with the booking industry is that there are a lot of one time bwannas out there calling themselves a booking agent.

So just be sure that you have a solid professional on your side before choosing a booking agent.

If you have personal knowledge of the area and the country an agent becomes less important but they can still be a valuable tool and make things go much easier if you've got a good one.

Another area to look at is who holds the deposit and payments? The overseas outfitter, or a US booking agent with an agreement as to when to release the funds.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mark

P.S. I lived in Dillingham, AK for 22 years.

I know!! We used to bring friends to your house for the "dead-head tour"

Hi to Sadie.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Another area to look at is who holds the deposit and payments? The overseas outfitter, or a US booking agent with an agreement as to when to release the funds.

Thanks!!

This is exactly why I started this thread.

Surestrike and SBT,

Good advise on both counts...

Frostbit,
If you have done all that leg work to search out a good outfitter you are farther ahead of the game than most Booking agents will get you. Generally you will find that the people in the Safari industry are hard working, honest individuals that take a good deal of pride in their services and property. Your money is as safe in their hands as it would be in a booking agents hands. Now if after you have done all that you did to check out the outfitter do you really want to take half of his profit margin and give it too someone else because you don’t trust him? Think about how you would feel if you were trying to run a business and someone did that too you. I keep a lot of my money in the bank and them bankers are about the most incompetent inbreed of people that ever crawled the earth. Your money is safe with an honest outfitter.
Now on the other hand, when you bring an agent into the mix several things can happen and not all of them good. I have been booked on hunts where the outfitter sold his operation six months before my hunt and I have watched a guy sit in camp while waiting for the outfitter to contact the agent since the agent “forgot†to send the final payment to the outfitter. I was in camp in 2003 with the story that three weeks earlier a guy called from the bullawao airport wondering where his pick up was. The booking agent sold him a hunt, took his money, arranged the airfare and didn’t bother to let the outfitter know he was coming. Oops! I was sold a white tail hunt in Montana that one of the big catalog agents promised “half the guys W.T. bucks are over 150 inchesâ€. Only to find that my buck, a 135 inch, was the biggest the outfitter ever took , and it was only his third w.t. buck taken by a hunter. I was stuck in Calgary with 400 pounds of rapidly thawing Moose meat on one of those little airport gurneys because my then agent, who insisted I use his ticketing services, booked me on a commuter flight that did not allow firearms. When I called him from the airport he said he couldn’t do anything about it, call his ticketing agency. His ticketing agency, a cruise provider, didn’t have much of a clue as of what to do.
Every year I set up to sell Safaris at the Cincinnati outdoors show and I always keep a stack of SAPS 520’s under the table. When someone tells me they booked a Safari with another agent I will hand them two copies and go over it with them. Several other agents actually send their booked clients too me to go over it with them (I’m always just a couple booths down and two of them send beer or food when I do this). One of the big catalog pimps became pissed at me because I gave his client a SAPS 550 and showed him how to fill it out. This blowhard, in no uncertain terms, told me strait out that his client did not need this paper work and he had never even heard of it! Besides, he booked this guy for southern Zim so he didn’t need any South African paperwork. This is one of the major Catalog agents.
I have been mislead, both accidentally and intentionally and just outright lied to by a couple agents over the years. I could write for over an hour on bad agent practices.
Now, on the other hand, an Agent can be the best source for a fine hunt. If you are not comfortable booking direct (but it sounds like you have already done the leg work) then check out an agent. Just remember that just because he has a fancy 60 page catalog he gives out by the thousands does not make him knowledgeable about your hunt. I have had excellent success with agents in the past, having taken 7 great hunts and about a dozen not so great hunts or hunts I was blantly mislead about.
Just my two cents worth.

Frostbit,

If you found the outfitter on your own, contacted them on your own (without the recommendation of an agent), made all arrangements with them, why would you use an agent?

Just book it.

Agents come in handy when you don't know where to go and need recommendations on:
1. Where to hunt for the species you want.
2. When to hunt for the best success on key species.
3. Who can offer you opportunities at your primary species and what to expect for quality and quantity of game.

I obviously agree with others that say that an experienced agent can smooth the process, offer advice on their experiences, handle deposits and payments stateside, and answer questions. Communication with African operators is sometimes difficult, especially small family run operations where they may be out hunting and answers to questions may take weeks. But it seems to me this is not a problem with the guy you are considering.

I also agree with everyone who posted about "one-time bwanas" or part time agents who have little experience who can do more harm than good.

Seems to me you have the decision made. Don't complicate it, just book it.

Wendell is right...

If you have everything taken care of as far as your arrangement go, then just continue doing it yourself.

I thank everyone for their posts. I believe the "outfit", which is a family owned deal in Namibia comprised of a husband (PH) and wife (handling details and very prompt), are trust worthy and I have no fear of dealing direct. I guess since they are a small family run deal and not some "giant" multi PH hiring "business" I would like to see them able to avoid the "booking agent commission".

I found them with my own research yet ironically they are the Namibia hunt that the booking agent I trust (who posts on here and is well respected apparently) also books with.

Being a first timer I fully realize I may not know what I am getting into as far as traveling to Africa with guns, forms involved, timelines for such, Air 2000, insurance, who holds the deposit etc. but I do have some great resources for this info (this forum being one and a co-worker being another) that I will probably take the “chance†and do this myself.

I also realize African Hunting seems to become an addiction for the majority of those who taste it and the Booking Agent I know (from life before he became one) understands he will be the first person called for a future DG hunt if I go that route.

Again thank you all for your help and I’m sure I’ll be posting some other questions in the future.

Jim

Sounds like you are on the right track Jim. I book direct in a similar fashion after doing the research (but my preferences don't use agents).

However, I have spoken with several of the booking agents on this board about various hunts they represented that I was not knowledgable about. If I book those hunts at some point, it will be through that agent as they helped me to understand the finer points of that situation.

I'm comfortable booking on my own in most cases and using an agent at other times. I've done both.

How about the paperwork ones needs to enter the countries with firearms... I was in Zim in 04 and a friend of my ph had a client arrive and had absolutely none of the paperwork required to import the rifles for hunting... Good old " boy scout" Mike had an extra copy of all paper needed... I do not take chances...An African hunting travel agent also have all the necessary info also...

Mike

Do yourself a favor and contact Gracy Travel. For a fee, even if you're using frequent flyer miles, they'll book your flights and take care of getting you everything you need for the guns to go also. I think it's about a $300.00 fee. Well worth it. You'll get a gib fed ex package from them with everything you need.

Folks,

All the instances that people sight as reasons not to use an agent are exactly the reasons that a first time safari hunter should use a REPUTABLE AND INFORMED agent. If a hunter has gone as far as FROSTBIT has in his research and made a decision without the assistance of an agent he has to be prepared to trip over his manhood when the unanticipated comes up and it probably will.WHO YA' GONNA CALL?????

I think a hunter on a repeat hunt with the same company in the same country can very safely book his own hunt if he has the time to do the arrangements. In anyother circumstance I think the agent can be of invaluable assistance.

Mark

Good points Mark. As I posted I fully admit I don't know enough to know what I don't know. I am not trying to speak for anyone else or openly suggest it is a good idea to choose to "deal direct" with the outfiter.

I think I already expressed my personal situation as it stands and I have yet to book since I'm looking at 2010.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Earl:
Frostbit,

Generally you will find that the people in the Safari industry are hard working, honest individuals that take a good deal of pride in their services and property. Your money is as safe in their hands as it would be in a booking agents hands.

Thanks for the post. I do have a good feeling about these folks (the outfitter/PH). Trust is not the issue.

I read Mark's post and it makes me concerned a bit that the reality is I have not been to Africa before, certainly not carrying firearms, and I will be going most likely through the UK, RSA on to Namibia.

Like I said it's not an outfitter trust issue as much as a personal ignorance issue.

Traveling issues would be worked out by the travel agent. I would always book with one for overseas travel, especially with firearms. As to the other part, book with the operator since you did the research...just be sure to use a travel agent like Kathi Klimes or Gracy Travel. They have lots of experience.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
Traveling issues would be worked out by the travel agent. I would always book with one for overseas travel, especially with firearms. As to the other part, book with the operator since you did the research...just be sure to use a travel agent like Kathi Klimes or Gracy Travel. They have lots of experience.

Sent you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

I read Mark's post and it makes me concerned a bit that the reality is I have not been to Africa before, certainly not carrying firearms, and I will be going most likely through the UK, RSA on to Namibia.

Frostbit,even if you have complete success with the outfitter that you have found and have confidence in...given your travel routes you REALLY need to use one of the specialist agents like Gracy or Kathi!

They can help you with the firearms, and the overnight in Johannesburg, and the connection to other flights, and generally ease your mind about the issue of international travel to Africa. And it doesn't cost any more!

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

I read Mark's post and it makes me concerned a bit that the reality is I have not been to Africa before, certainly not carrying firearms, and I will be going most likely through the UK, RSA on to Namibia.

And it doesn't cost any more!

Les

Even if you plan on using mileage?

Well, Ok, it's gonna cost you some $ to use one of these guys to make the mileage arrangements for you.

But might be worth some $ to get it done and have the confidence that they add.

[It was very reassuring last October when I was able to urgently reroute and reschedule our return trip during a 6 minute Sat phone call {borrowed another hunters phone}from Zimbabwe to Doug at Gracy - all rearranged while I was on the phone!]

Les

PS [Have I mentioned that I will not even consider going anywhere over there again, other than, maybe, South Africa, without a Sat Phone - or assurances that the outfitters or PH's sat phone will be available.]

Frostbit,
Send me a PM and I will forward a pdf file for the SAPS520 you will need to go thru Jo’Berg. It looks like Delta curtailed the Atlanta route so it’s JFK to either Capetown or Jo’berg and on to Windhoek.
I advise Doug Gray at Gracy for my hunters and recommend them. I am checking out internet deals on airfare and have an $800 swing on the lowest fare from providers. Doug can cut thru this pretty easy. If you need any advice I, or a bunch of others on this board can help but it really is not difficult to travel with firearms.

quote:

I think a hunter on a repeat hunt with the same company in the same country can very safely book his own hunt if he has the time to do the arrangements. In any other circumstance I think the agent can be of invaluable assistance.

Mark,
While I am sure you are sincere I completely disagree with you on that account. If I were to book a safari (or any hunt) with an Agent and I were to return on the same hunt I believe it only morally responsible to again go thru that agent. He brought me into the outfitter after all. I have done this on a couple hunts so far. Rich LaRocco set me up with an AZ outfit and I now have 9 preference point (bought over nine years) and when I do draw that tag I will contact Rich. This despite the fact that I have not talked with him in almost eight years.

Just so you know Earl, Mark IS a booking agent.

I[/QUOTE]

Frostbit,even if you have complete success with the outfitter that you have found and have confidence in...given your travel routes you REALLY need to use one of the specialist agents like Gracy or Kathi!

They can help you with the firearms, and the overnight in Johannesburg, and the connection to other flights, and generally ease your mind about the issue of international travel to Africa. Les[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree.

I have never used a Booking Agent for a African Hunt with the exception of when I went to RSA with Melorani Safaris, using Bowhunting Safari Consultants. That's one reason I am a SCI member and go to the Convention. There I can sit down with the people I will hunt with and make an informed decision and work out all details one on one. Some of my other Safaris have been booked because of people I know who have been to the particular place and I use their reccommendation. I do however use a Travel Agent to do their thing for me, Tatum, Kathi or Gracy. If I wanted to go to a place or hunt with an Outfitter I knew nothing about then I would have no problem with a good Booking Agent.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I have taken trips to Africa through booking agents, and several I have arranged completely by myself. I also recommend Gracy travel.

However, Gracy is relatively expensive to use if you plan to burn miles, and really not as essential as others seem to indicate. It sounds like you have a pretty straight forward trip planned. By that I mean you aren't hunting in multiple countries, or trying to do multiple layovers. You can book your trip with miles yourself without problems. (Of course all mileage bookings are a pain, but that is the way the airlines want it!)
Continue to be informed by reading this board, and you shouldn't have any problems. I will continue to use agents for some trips, and also continue to book many myself. A simple trip to Namibia isn't magic, and it sounds like you are willing to do some homework yourself.Book the trip yourself, relax, and have a great trip.
Bill

Frostbit, if you want to know how an agent can save your hunt PM me, or send me your phone number and I'll call you on my own dime and tell you why one ALWAYS should use an agent...........................JJ

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Frostbit, if you want to know how an agent can save your hunt PM me, or send me your phone number and I'll call you on my own dime and tell you why one ALWAYS should use an agent...........................JJ

PM sent

The real problem here is the misconception that you, the hunter, have to pay a commision to a booking agent. This is not the case The commission is paid to an agent by the outfitter or safari company.

In most cases you can go directly to an outfitter and book a hunt. They are going to charge the same price as you would get using an agent.

So why not use a local agent it costs nothing more and you have the advantage of someone stateside to help with arrangements or answer questions, at no charge to you the consumer.

Then if there is an issue or problem with your trip you have someone tangible on the same continent who cares, and can help you resolve the problems.

To me its a no brainer. jj

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajcj:
The real problem here is the misconception that you, the hunter, have to pay a commision to a booking agent. This is not the case The commission is paid to an agent by the outfitter or safari company.

In most cases you can go directly to an outfitter and book a hunt. They are going to charge the same price as you would get using an agent.

So why not use a local agent it costs nothing more and you have the advantage of someone stateside to help with arrangements or answer questions, at no charge to you the consumer.

Then if there is an issue or problem with your trip you have someone tangible on the same continent who cares, and can help you resolve the problems.

To me its a no brainer. jj

I have no misconception about paying a booking agent. I believe if you read through the tread again you will see that I know the price to me is unchanged whether I use an agent or not.

You are correct that my price will be the same. The outfitter is not offering nor have I asked for a discount for not using a booking agent.

I found them on my own research not from an agents lead. I have been in communication with the wife (averaging 5 emails a week for the last 3-4 weeks) asking questions about details.

It's a small business comprised of a husband (PH) and wife. It's their land, their game (unfenced) and up to this point their time and mine invested in this interaction.

Call me a fool if you wish but I would rather see them keep the 15% unless someone can tell me what a booking agent is going to do for me other than flight arrangments and form advice, which I am willing to research on my own.

I look at it like supporting a small family business.

Now feel free to tell me what else the booking agent is going to do for me that I am unaware of.

Most reputable booking agents hsve already done the research for the outfits they book for. Like with us we make it a point to travel and hunt with every outfitter we work with. We know the accomodations the hunting property their guides and what species are available in the given area and when the best time to hunt them. If an outfitter says they prefer we not come and see the operation we don't work with them because they may be untruthful about their operation. We also check references from previous hunters and follow up with our own hunters to make sure it was what they were looking for.

Booking agents earn their keep making sure you get the trip you are looking for. If I have been there I can give you an objective opinion as to whether or not the outfit is what you are looking for.

Most outfitters are also willing to give up a small comission to a booking agent so they don't have to answer 5 emails a week from 20 different clients. The agent takes care of the details and answers the questions and the outfitter can run his business and go hunt. jj

Since you keep making the point about supporting family run businesses. Agents in the hunting industry are not some huge ugly corporation strong arming people into using them. They are small one or two man shows providing support for hunters and outfitters.

Its surprising how many people don't like using a booking agent until they have had a bad experience.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajcj:
Since you keep making the point about supporting family run businesses. Agents in the hunting industry are not some huge ugly corporation strong arming people into using them. They are small one or two man shows providing support for hunters and outfitters.

Its surprising how many people don't like using a booking agent until they have had a bad experience.

I apologize if I somehow gave you the impression I thought booking agents were part of some great evil business entity. I never made a statement to that effect. I will point out that in your first of the last two posts you mentioned,

"Most reputable booking agents hsve already done the research for the outfits they book for. Like with us we make it a point to travel and hunt with every outfitter we work with. We know the accomodations the hunting property their guides and what species are available in the given area and when the best time to hunt them. If an outfitter says they prefer we not come and see the operation we don't work with them because they may be untruthful about their operation. We also check references from previous hunters and follow up with our own hunters to make sure it was what they were looking for."

Now if I called you before doing any of the above I would certainly understand and agree that you should have 15% of the daily rate for this research.

I am not talking about the Safari Hunting booking process in general but rather my particular case specifically.

I assure you that I have done everything you mentioned in the quote I placed here EXCEPT "we make it a point to travel and hunt with every outfitter we work with."

I also agree with you that outfitters may not want to as you put it "have to answer 5 emails a week from 20 different clients".

I asked (and offered) after the first week of general questions to contact a booking agent of their choice if they would prefer me to. Her answer was (I am paraphrasing) "You and I are beyond that point. Most agents book the trip and then give the hunters to me to deal with the questions".

Now before you think I have again tried to slam the booking industry I am only relating my personal situation and interaction with the small family outfit I have all but already decided to utilize. So I will again ask you.

Can you tell me something that you or another booking agent would do for me other than referring me to Gracy travel and explaining customs forms? You can certainly mention holding the deposit on US soil instead of it being in the hands of a Namibia Family business and I will readily agree it is a risk on my part if I do that. But as I said it would be my own informed foolish choice.

Thanks for taking the time to offer your opinion and help.

If you feel comfortable and you have done your homework on your outfitter, then i am sure you will have a good trip. AR is also a great resource for researching others experiences. good luck.

I have learned one thing from this thread and that is after reading Big Earl's first post, don't rely on him for advice on a hunt!!!! A dozen messed up hunts, how long does it take for a person to wake up??? And he claims to be a booking agent.....that's scary.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Earl:
Frostbit,
Send me a PM and I will forward a pdf file for the SAPS520 you will need to go thru Jo’Berg. It looks like Delta curtailed the Atlanta route so it’s JFK to either Capetown or Jo’berg and on to Windhoek.
I advise Doug Gray at Gracy for my hunters and recommend them. I am checking out internet deals on airfare and have an $800 swing on the lowest fare from providers. Doug can cut thru this pretty easy. If you need any advice I, or a bunch of others on this board can help but it really is not difficult to travel with firearms.

what do you mean that Delta has curtailed the ATL-JHB route? i am flying Delta on that route Set 27 and i just checked my itenarary on Delta's web site- no flight changes since the reservation was made 7 weeks ago. you or i one is definitely wrong and i think it is you.

quote:

Originally posted by sevenmagltd.:
I have learned one thing from this thread and that is after reading Big Earl's first post, don't rely on him for advice on a hunt!!!! A dozen messed up hunts, how long does it take for a person to wake up??? And he claims to be a booking agent.....that's scary.

how anybody could have 12 out of 18-19 hunts go south is absolutely beyond me! it's too bad Big Earl didn't post the name of his business as a warning to others. just FYI, i made my own Delta business class reservation to JHB for my Moz. hunt on line with freq. flier miles - took about 20 minutes and cost $65.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajcj:
If you feel comfortable and you have done your homework on your outfitter, then i am sure you will have a good trip. AR is also a great resource for researching others experiences. good luck.

Thank you the wish of luck! I appreciate all the great info on this forum. I have sent you a PM.