This is a hypothetical question, seeing that it may be a few years before I am in the market for a DGR. What would be the better of the 2 cartridges (brass availability, reloading factors, recoil and power)?
I am kindof leaning towards the Rigby because CZ and Ruger chamber them (I haven't looked to see if Winchester does).
I'm sure there has been lots of discussion on this topic, but I can't find any info comparing the 2. I also don't know alot about the wildcat .416's, but I guess that they would also be good candidates.
Any opinions?

They are both loaded to the same performance in factory ammo. If you wish to handload, you can soup up the rigby, however the remington is pretty much at the top already.
There has been some talk that the remington cases are in short supply and may shortly be discontinued, whereas the rigby is growing in popularity every day.

I prefer the Remington for one reason...It can be made into a somewhat lighter and slimmer gun...The 416 Rigby requires such a massive action...My actual choice is the 404 Jefferys, but I'm presently shooting a 416 Rem in a M-70 pre 64..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The Rigby (which could also be known as the 416 Ruark, because he did all the marketing for it in the States...) appeals to nostalgics, is more expensive in rifles (needs larger actions), brass and ammo, and the case is larger than needed to attain the "magic" velocities of 400 gr at 2,400 f/s, it has no belt, which is important if you are a Nonbelt Fundamentalist. The Remington is cheaper and you can easily fireform brass out of 375H&H ammo in a pinch... The Rigby seems to be more popular in Africa, the Remington in Alaska...

It would be interesting to know how many custom rifles and production rifles were built in a year...

I would also very much like to see real annual sales numbers (of say Federal...) of 416 Rigby versus 416 Rem ammo to judge real popularity...

I have a 416 Rem and have used it on 4 African Safaris with no problems at all...

Buy the one you like most... The animals you will shoot wont be able to tell the difference...

Antonio

I like the Remington for the same reasons as Ray Atkinson. Good Power // Trim Package

cs,

If your goal is to drive a 400 grain bullet at 2400 f/s, then the Remington is the easier, more practical and economical way of doing this.

You could think of the 416 Remington as a 30/06 and the 416 Rigby as a 300 Wby loaded back to 30/06 ballistics.

What the 416 Rigby offers is more "pizzaz", a more desirable thing to own for those who care and the ability to be loaded up to 2700 f/s

Mike

There's a new batch of Remington headstamped 416 Rem Mag brass available this spring, so that worry is gone for a while.

Don

Both will give you that magical 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps. That combo is supposed to be fine for all the big pachyderms. The Remington is for practicality. Cheaper and more available ammo, can use average magnum action, mass produced guns readily available. The Rigby is mainly for nostalgia buffs. It does have plenty of room for loading up but why? I personally will take nostalgia every time. I think the world just needs more 416 Rigby's. I do recognise that I must figure it almost as a wildcat, as ammo will be hard to find and very expensive. Even brass is about 180usd for 100. I will roll my own. Good hunting. "D"

You guys made a pretty good case for the 404 Jefferys...Nostalgia, small action, trim rifle and it can be loaded to 2650 FPS, but again why?? not necessary...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, the problem with the 404 is that the case looks like the 30-30s big brother. Of course thers nothing wrong with that, its is very capable, like the 30-30. It's just that it doesn't look sexy. The Rigby, my goodness, THAT is sexy. That case has the tall frame, proportioned just right. But the thing is and will always be that the Rigby is the best looking cartridge in that class. Almost like picking a wife, no matter how practical or effecient a woman might be, the one with right look is the one that turns heads. Yeah, the Rem and Taylor can do most everything that a guy wants done. But the Rigby does all that they can do and doesn't even have to try hard to do it. I don't know about you guys, but I like to choose one that gives me more, without putting up a fuss. Is she expensive to have around? You bet, but the cost is nothing compared to the enjoyment you receive....
Wait a minute, I forgot what I was talking about....... Oh yeah, rifles.....
Sorry if I got off track, I love Rigbys and women for the same reason, they can really make a guy feel good.
Best to you, Bill

Bill,
Soooo, based on your post, I assume you lean towards fat girls, with thick necks?? correct.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I was wondering if you would go that direction.
No, I was trying to draw a parrallel between the Rigby being able to do most anything, above and beyond the call of duty without having to fussed over too much. It just seems a more modern, better looking piece to me.
I should have known that I can't put clearly into words what I was trying to.
Thanks for the laugh though, Ray. You win.
I humbly bow in your presence.

[This message has been edited by Bill in NE (edited 04-23-2001).]

Bill in NE,
I know what you mean, ditto that. I have three rifles in .416 Rigby: Eleanor, Elaine, and Elvira!!!

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

Bill,
The Rigby is a fine cartridge, all kidding aside, but it is not modern in that it is a huge case requiring a huge heavy action, thus your packing a lot of iron all day long..If I gotta pack that big a gun in a bolt action, then I want a 500 Jefferys or a 505 Gibbs.

the 404 can be had in a size camproble to a 30-06, slim and trim, and that can be a factor to some of us who are getting a little long in the tooth..Balistics are identical. the 404 is more like a big 30-06 than a 30-30 by the way...It is much easier to make a 404 feen than a Rigby due to the shoulder so I think it may be more reliable but on the downside of that the 404, due to case configuration needs to be trimmed more often because a tapered case stretches..but I don't shoot the big bores enough to be bothered by that.

My only reason for the choice of the 404 is now and always has been the size and compactness of the gun..I still have the Nostalgia with the 404 that I would have with the Rigby.

Thats about as honest an evaluation as I can give you, the good and the bad on both.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
You failed to mention here, but have mentioned it in the past and that is the 404 Jeffery like the 375 H&H and 300 H&H are by far the smoothest feeding big cartridges made for a bolt action rifle.
Steve

To thrown a wrench into this discussion, I shoot a .416 Dakota. This uses the .404 Jeffery parent case with lots of performance for a .400gr bullet - 2550 fps. I shoot at 2350 fps with Woodleigh solids and softs. Same POI and never any questions about penetration.

Z

I like Antonio's comparison of both cartridges. I own a Rigby myself, for all the romantic reasons posted above and I also have an aversion to anything with the word Remington They both have strong points the rigby can be "uploaded" but I like it in it's present form, the Rem is pretty well maxed out and that might cause problems but eh chances are small.
The 404 is also a great cartridge for all the right reasons Ray mentioned, but it isn't a Rigby, and here in the states finding ammo is like finding truthful democrat politicians. And Ray, i do like the fat (pleasantly)chicks, the bigger the better the tighter the sweater!

Ray, I guess the reason I've got Rigby is because its available. I can walk into a gun store and pick up a Rigby. Have yet to see a Jeffrey. I might have went that way, but it is just not something that you can find around here. If one has to have a rifle built, well then I would have to do a bit more research. You know what I'm saying, there are Rigbys and Remingtons in the stores, there are no Taylors or Jeffreys, so because of its just being there, Rigby is going to win, whether it is better or not.

The oldest thread I could find. Just to trump Tim416!



To the Mods,

Please feel free to move this back to the end of the queue...... and please also accept my apologies but I just couldn't resist it.

This is the closest I could find to represent "necroposting".

Hey, this post was on this forum before I was! That is REALLY old.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

This is the closest I could find to represent "necroposting".

What you might call post, post, posting!

I hoped to find the first ever AR African hunting post but was out of luck!

Hey I immediately jumped on it, then saw when it was started. I am building a Rigby now so it was relevant. Maybe after Harry Selby guides hunters with his 416 Rem. Mag. for forty years I will appreciate it more.

I shoot a Ruger Magnum Rifle in 416 Rigby, three different bullets, all 400 grains of Barnes-X, Woodleigh Solid, and Nosler Partition. After a little reloading and rangework, they all shoot to the same point at 200 yards!!! This is why I like my Elanor Rigby!!! If only I could afford to hunt buf and ele across the pond!!!
I want a rich husband so I can spend her money!!!!!!

Lets see, a modern design .416 that easily builds into a compact, slim, inexpensive rifle What is wrong with the 416 Ruger?

Phil,
Your right, thats hard to argue with.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Phil,
Your right, thats hard to argue with.

What are you doing here, old man?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Phil,
Your right, thats hard to argue with.

Long time, no see your name. Hows it going? Still ridin' and ropin'?

roll the clock forward five years. The Rigby will still be going strong. The Remington, maybe.
The Ruger, hmmmmm...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by cs:
This is a hypothetical question, seeing that it may be a few years before I am in the market for a DGR. What would be the better of the 2 cartridges (brass availability, reloading factors, recoil and power)?
I am kindof leaning towards the Rigby because CZ and Ruger chamber them (I haven't looked to see if Winchester does).
I'm sure there has been lots of discussion on this topic, but I can't find any info comparing the 2. I also don't know alot about the wildcat .416's, but I guess that they would also be good candidates.
Any opinions?

I realize the origenal poster may never see this answer to his post, but the same answer would be my opinion if the question was aske today!

I wouldn't go with either given the safari being in a "FEW YRS IN THE FUTURE"! With that kind of time to build a rifle, I would go with a good tight Mauser action, and build a 404 rifle around it, ans set up a large supply of componants, and loading equipment, work up a real load for it, and make sure the rifle fed like quick silver, and the stock fit me perfectly. However with that kind of time, in my case, I would most likely be looking for vary nice 10 pound 450/400NE 3" double rifle.

I shoot a .416 Rigby....made by Ruger....like it, believe in it

Sincr both the Rigby and Remington have become so common (relatively speaking) I may just build a .416 Taylor. In fact I did see a used kimber listed at Cabelas. Have always heard good things about the Taylor and its a what the heck gun anyway.

SSR

I've killed 7 buffalo, a 55# elephant, and a 10' Brown bear with my Rifles Inc. .416 Rem. A Rigby would do the exact same job on the terminal end, but with 1 round less in the chamber and a bit heavier gun. Go with your gut feeling and enjoy your .416!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill in NE:
Ray, the problem with the 404 is that the case looks like the 30-30s big brother. Of course thers nothing wrong with that, its is very capable, like the 30-30. It's just that it doesn't look sexy. The Rigby, my goodness, THAT is sexy. That case has the tall frame, proportioned just right. But the thing is and will always be that the Rigby is the best looking cartridge in that class. Almost like picking a wife, no matter how practical or effecient a woman might be, the one with right look is the one that turns heads. Yeah, the Rem and Taylor can do most everything that a guy wants done. But the Rigby does all that they can do and doesn't even have to try hard to do it. I don't know about you guys, but I like to choose one that gives me more, without putting up a fuss. Is she expensive to have around? You bet, but the cost is nothing compared to the enjoyment you receive....
Wait a minute, I forgot what I was talking about....... Oh yeah, rifles.....
Sorry if I got off track, I love Rigbys and women for the same reason, they can really make a guy feel good.
Best to you, Bill

Bill I think you need a few lessons when it comes to the sexiness and beauty of women.

When you take the 404 and like a women, apply the makeup in the form of a shiny new solid and wrap it in a slinky Type A Mauser, preferably with three of her sisters in the mag, now you have a sexy thing of incredible beauty, but take care because there is a rampant beast just waiting to be unleashed.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill in NE:
Ray, the problem with the 404 is that the case looks like the 30-30s big brother. Of course thers nothing wrong with that, its is very capable, like the 30-30. It's just that it doesn't look sexy. The Rigby, my goodness, THAT is sexy. That case has the tall frame, proportioned just right. But the thing is and will always be that the Rigby is the best looking cartridge in that class. Almost like picking a wife, no matter how practical or effecient a woman might be, the one with right look is the one that turns heads. Yeah, the Rem and Taylor can do most everything that a guy wants done. But the Rigby does all that they can do and doesn't even have to try hard to do it. I don't know about you guys, but I like to choose one that gives me more, without putting up a fuss. Is she expensive to have around? You bet, but the cost is nothing compared to the enjoyment you receive....
Wait a minute, I forgot what I was talking about....... Oh yeah, rifles.....
Sorry if I got off track, I love Rigbys and women for the same reason, they can really make a guy feel good.
Best to you, Bill

Bill I think you need a few lessons when it comes to the sexiness and beauty of women.

When you take the 404 and like a women, apply the makeup in the form of a shiny new solid and wrap it in a slinky Type A Mauser, preferably with three of her sisters in the mag, now you have a sexy thing of incredible beauty, but take care because there is a rampant beast just waiting to be unleashed.

eagle, I agree with you, I think the 404 is the sexiest of them all. It just looks so classic...

As to the original question, a friend of mine once said that it was not the looks of the .416 Rigby that made it famous, but it's ballistics, sso in that case, the Remington does the same.

quote:

I prefer the Remington for one reason...It can be made into a somewhat lighter and slimmer gun...The 416 Rigby requires such a massive action...My actual choice is the 404 Jefferys, but I'm presently shooting a 416 Rem in a M-70 pre 64..

The 416 Rem in a Win Pre 64 action is a fine marriage. (launched in 1988)
The 416 Rem belongs in a Mauser type action like a M70, not a Remington.
There is absolutely no reason to push the 416 Rem to reach 2,400 fps.(Federal ammo is loaded to 2,370 fps)
Once the people realized it should be down-loaded to bring the pressure down it was fine.
High pressure is causing trouble for the 416 Rem in the severe heat often encountered in Africa.
Handloaded to 2,250 - 2,300 fps is all you need with a 400 gr bullet.
It was never meant to compete head-on with the big-cased Rigby, it just cannot be done.
The cases of the 416 Rem is both cheaper and more readily available than the 416 Rigby.
The 416 can be built as a smaller and sleeker rifle than the Rigby with its large action.
A 416 Rem is similar to a blown-out 375 H&H case (actually derived from the 8 mm Rem Mag Case).
The Rigby is a great old round, and set the standard in ballistics for a forty caliber rifle.
The Rigby's huge case dimensions greatly limit the choice of actions.
Also, the physical case size also reduces magazine capacity by one or two rounds.
However, it is becoming a novelty today with SA hunters and increasingly scarce.
I don't think the .416 Rem is going away, its more versatile for the American hunter in North Amerika.
The 416 Rigby is too powerful for the game in North America and will see little use there.
With the new line of Hornady's DGX & DGS bullets for hunting DG, the 416 Rem should be a dream rifle.

http://www.hornady.com/store/416-Cal-.416-400-gr-DGX/

Warrior

PS: The chamber pressure in the Rigby is lower than the Remington, however I am not aware of any SAAMI pressure limitation on the Rigby - QuickLoad suggests 47,137 psi, versus the SAAMI limit of 62,366 psi for the Remington. Lower pressures mean a lower likelihood of a jam and lower likelyhood of dangerous overpressure or jamming in a very hot climate

I modeled a load using Quickload to achieve 2,300 fps with low pressure. RL15 is your go to powder, and this is also confirmed by Ty of the Barnes company when they did their testing:

Bullet: Hornady 400 gr RN
AOL: 3.6"
Load: 72.4 gr RL15
Case fill: 90.7%
Propellant Burnt: 99.56%
Velocity: 2,300 vps
Pressure: 50,432 psi
P-Max: 62,366 psi
Margin of safety: 11934 psi or 23.7%
Individual rifles will vary from this.

A very safe load in hot climates and at the same time at a decent velocity.
Don't milk the cartridge for max velocity; you don't need more than this.

What makes the the smaller case of the 416 Rem Mag also more useful/versatile is to pair it off with lighter bullets such as the:-

370 gr. North Fork Softs, Solids and Cup Points
350 gr Swift A-Frame
350 gr TSX

Warrior

Here is one for sale ....

http://www.africahunting.com/f...s-416-remington.html

Warrior

I have two .416 Rigby's, Ruger and Chapuis DR, but my favorite .416 is the Taylor. It will do all I need in a much smaller gun, lighter and more compact. I get 2350 fps with a 400 gr. bullet from a 22" barrel. That will take anything in the world with a properly placed shot. It's a lot easier to spend time with at the range, easy to load, brass is cheap, mine is MOA. It is also 4-in-the-floor. Just a fun rifle.......Tom