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This post got me thinking. "Stu should be getting a sizable check every month for the rest of his life from the party responsible." I've hunted Africa a few times and will hunt there again. I figured if I got hurt doing it then that is on me and me alone. A PH does it for a living so where is the hunter responsible for injury in the following cases? "A sizable check every month for the rest of his life" is no small deal. I'm all for chipping in as a member of the hunting fraternity and helping folks when possible, but........ Who's financially responsible when? 1) PH gored by Buffalo you wound. 2) You are gored by Buffalo PH doesn't drop in time. 3) In confusion of moment of shooting the Buffalo goring you the PH shoots you. 4) Reverse roles in #3 5) Apply all of above to the tracker, bearer, etc. I'm not looking to start an internet sparring match but really, I guess I need to check on a liability policy before my next trip. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | ||
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Are there liability laws in the country you will be hunting is a question I would answer first. I fished in Panama once and the cab drivers drove like at the Indy 500 with kids playing along side the road. When ask if he was afraid he might take one of the kids out his reply was there were no liability laws in Panama. He mentioned he would say he was sorry, though.  The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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After hearing about several incidents international and also here at home, I spoke with my insurance agent (Farmers) about some protection. He suggested an umbrella policy would help protect me. I have an appointment with him to discuss just such protection. We will see what happens. | |||
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Good questions, I am going to check my umbrella policy. | |||
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Putting aside for the moment scenarios where one party is just grossly negligent, e.g., someone shoots someone because they are carelessly handling their weapon in camp after some cocktails . . . morally, I think that in the circumstances you are describing it would be reprehensible for someone to seek to impose liability on someone else (going both ways, hunter against PH or PH against hunter). In hunting dangerous game, we should all understand the risks and be big enough to accept the consequences. Legally, assuming you could even get jurisdiction over the other person in a US court and establish venue in a court, my guess is that sadly the American court system would be happy to allow such a lawsuit. The likely result would vary depending on whether such a case were pending in a place like Texas (much more likely a jury would find that everyone should be a big boy) or California (where the government or the courts are an integral part of the "social safety net"). Mike | |||
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Some facts that especially Americans sometimes choose to ignore: 1. Life sometimes takes a big ol' dump on you and it's nobody's fault; and 2. Sometimes it's your own fault. Our beloved U.S.A. is the only place in the civilized world where the loser of a liability case doesn't pay all court costs and lawyers' fees. Change this one thing and the cost for an incredible number of products (including healthcare) will come down dramatically. As far as liability in a hunting scenario in southern Africa as you described, going by the PHs I've met, I like to think they have a better grip on real life and what can happen than a lot of folks in other walks of life. A "sizable check every month for the rest of his life" is an infantile reaction to one of life's sad turn of events. Money (and taking money from someone else)doesn't bring back an arm, leg, or a life. Of course everything should be done to help the family. But a mistake shouldn't be followed by revenge. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cazador humilde: A "sizable check every month for the rest of his life" is an infantile reaction to one of life's sad turn of events.QUOTE] +1 Jeff | |||
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Mike, interesting comment "carelessly handling their weapon after some cocktails", personally I make a point to secure my weapon prior to cocktails and do not touch it again until morning when time to get after them. | |||
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. . . I know, that is why to do otherwise would be grossly negligent. Mike | |||
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Nothing infantile about manning up to your responsibility as the person who put a bullet into someone's shoulder and causing that person to loose the ability to financially support himself. But for your bullet that person would not have incurred the disabling injury. There is a certainly a moral responsibility to make that person whole again whether the law says to or not. Believe me I have had my share of frivolous lawsuits, this situation is not one of them (not saying that there is one nor should be one) | |||
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Just ask Dick Cheney - per the media. | |||
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Were you there? Mike | |||
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Care to share your line of work? I'm in medicine and have never been sued. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I started this thread not to specifically discuss Stu's situation. I never gave thought to things like liabilty insurance before this year. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I'm in medicine, been sued twice in 20yrs, nonsuited both times during the process but after wasting a lot of time and energy preparing to defend myself. I have been adviced to get have an umbrella policy from the day I began practice. I'm assuming that's liability insurance. I'm told that it covers anything that you are liable for except for illegal stuff of course. | |||
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After all the tragedy this year with wounded buff and such, I checked with my homeowner's agent on my liability and found out that in cases of negligence, I was covered up to 1/2 mil. For a whopping 11 dollars more a year, I now have 1 mill in liability insurance. Hope I never have to use it. | |||
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Some very interesting questions, If you wound a Buf and the pH goes after it and subsequently gets injured or killed my belief is it was his job as the expert, part of his job, similar to a fireman getting injured putting out a fire that you accidentally started, I would feel that I owe him but not obligated by law. If I get gored by a buf that the PH failed to stop? I believe that is part of the risk, going after dangerous game is inherently dangerous and comes with risk, risk that you need to accept provided there is no negligence and other parties took reasonable and necessary steps to insure your safety and in that incident it wasn't enough. It would be like a nascar driver suing another driver for a pure racing accident when it was part of racing . As far as accidentally shooting or being shot when the shot was with the intention of stopping an animal from killing you or the PH, this is the gray area, it was an act of good faith that went wrong and it done with good intention, other option was doing nothing which would have resulted in death. A person who engages in a dangerous activity must bear some of the liability, DG hunting is just that dangerous This would apply at least in my mind to anyone there, It is like jumping into your car, you accept the risk of being injured from accidents that occur your fault my fault anybodies fault, what you won't accept is the injuries from negligence NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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So lets take it a little further. Who then if anyone is responsible for the lost incomes of all the camp staff? Is it their fault they can not work because someone shot their boss? Jus how far you want to take this is a personal thing in my mind. Only the individuals present at the time know the details of the event. After replaying it many times and second guessing as I am sure I would I am not sure there would still be a clear verdict. Woulda, shoulda, coulda, although nice in 20/20 hindsight mean nothing. The people involved must come to a realization and agreement as to what is right. It is often only a matter of conscience even when it is obvious an event could not have been avoided. Each will choose their own path here. Some will shine. Some will not. who are we to judge not having been there. This applies to any of these unfortunate situations when they occur. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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There would be no question that the the party causing the traumatic injury would be liable for all medical, pain and suffering and lost income but not for staff, reason being you did not cause them injury and they would be of sound body and mind and should be able to gain employment elsewhere. In cases like this lawyers would have to come to an agreement that meets the best interest of all those involved with the injured party getting the benefit of doubt. What forces the issue is medical, the injured insurance company will not cover those expenses if they can assess it on someone else particularly the person who caused this. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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Were someone to be hurt under personal or private circumstances I'd think the compensation or other obligations would be a private or personal matter. If someone is injured while engaged in professional or business circumstances I'd think that the injuring business would either a) deny, deny, deny! 'They were never here, I was never there, I've never seen them before, I don't know what you're talking about!" or, b) blanket the injured person in money, concern, get well cards, flowers, dancing girls and any other kind of compensation one could think of in order to smother ill will from any direction and hopefully make the topic of discussion go away as soon as possible. I've a sort of John Edwards/ Arnold Schwartenegger reaction in mind. The difference here as I see it is that this was a business deal, a sponsored tv show was being assembled, and I'm a little suprised the sponsors would allow a donation fund to be put together. Rather than reminding the consumer public over and over that an accident or mistake did happen, I'd of thought the sponsors would like the story to go away ASAP. On the tv show "Fantasy Island" the catch phrase was, "Smiles everyone, smiles!" Thats good business, not, "Well yeah they did get shot!" | |||
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So you are saying it's a different situation if Tim Herald AKA Nosler Magnum TV is holding a rifle than if Scott King is holding a rifle? Just trying to understand the difference. I could be wrong but I bet the same paperwork Tim may or may not have signed probably looks a lot like (but probably 10 pages shorter) the paperwork Adam Clements Safari Trackers always wanted me to sign before I got on a plane. Sorry, can't buy the a business is involved connection. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Last week I met with my insurance agent to update coverages for my personal insurance. During the course of the meeting the questioned was posed that if I accidentally shot a guide while on a paid hunting trip in the US would my homeowners/umbrella cover my liability. The answer was yes. I asked if the coverage was bound in Africa for a similar incident. The answer was yes, the coverage is worldwide. While I pray the insurance is never needed, it is good to know there is a possibility of this type incident being paid by my homeowners policy. | |||
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I am. If someone is hurt on my job I have liability insurance as well as workmans comp. Professionally I have to protect all involved. As an aside, I want to protect my professional reputation also and so don't want any bad press about anything I do for profit so I may not like to think of it as a cover up or hush money but I do want to stem the flow of negative publicity ASAP. Seeing to the needs or desires of the injured party without hesitation is one way to hopefully diminish bad press. Personally or privately, liability is much more subjective, for example home accidents. Sure your homeowners insurace may pay for guests injured at your residence but your reputation won't be damaged, your business won't be stained. If a dummy walks thru my sliding glass door at home my insurance may pay but noone will question my intelligence or integrity as a businessman. My ability to make a profit in theory remains intact. If I am driving nails as a profession or pulling a trigger as a profession and well,..........pulled the trigger, I'd expect and assume professional responsibility. Its not a matter of "business involved," as you say, its a matter of a business transaction. Wholly, completely business. My wife is flying for business next week. In the event an error is made, the plane wrecks and she is injured or killed I don't expect there'll be an internet relief fund popping up. | |||
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OK then, how far does this thought go? Let's say your wife hoped in any of the 100 people you and I both could name in Dillingham with private planes to make a business trip to a village because "when air" decided to have a "mechanical" that day and a friend said "I'll fly you to Ekwok". The unfortunate happens, is the friend (assuming he lives) or his family liable? Your wife was on business but not paying them. Next scenario, Mark Young is hunting with Andrew so he can look at Andrew's new area (just happened). Mark is on business because of his profession and has an AD injuring Andrew. Same rules apply as to Tim & Stu? Some people like my writing, I've got a couple of articles coming out shortly in publication and trust me, I'm not paid but.....a PH contacts me because he wants to hunt me in the hopes he gets some advertising from my writing on here and elsewhere. Business? What if Stu was shot by a Magnum hunt club member whose sole investment other than the cost of the hunt is his $100 membership fee. Different rules? ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frostbit: What if, what if, what if,........ What if Martians attack while Stu is guiding Mark who works for Scott but is currently contracted to,....... I'll take responsibility for accidents that are my responsibility while engaged in my professional pursuit. How I handle personal or private liability is subjective and frankly my affair. If a plane crashes tomorrow on my jobsite and kills my employees on the ground I'm not sure I'd feel guilty but I'm obliged to assume responsibility for those under my supervision or contract. I'd suggest you know there aren't 100 peole in Dillingham with private airplanes, nor are employees allowed to fly on business with private pilots in non commercial airplanes because there is no liability coverage but it appears you don't. | |||
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Its real simple. In the US, if you have money, you will be partially liable (joint and several), and will end up losing most everything unless you have high insurance AND they agree to pay- or someone else who is more liable has really deep pockets. Anything in another country, even if officially covered, they will likely wrangle with you as to payment. And, as for Scott's comment on payoffs- despite the fact that you are the one being sued, the insurance company will decide who to pay and when. I've seen more than a few liability cases where there was no medical liability where an insurance carrier payed off to avoid paying for litigation. I've also seen a couple where both involved parties agreed there were damages and liability, but the insurance company fought it out, and ended up winning and paying nothing. A very good attorney I know says that litigation is always a crapshoot. I'm sure that each country has its own rules, or lack thereof. But if you are a US citizen, or you are doing business with a US company, just finding out who has jurisdiction is liable to be expensive. I hope I never find out what those laws are. | |||
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Well, since you moved to Dillingham after I left I'll leave the actual headcount private plane owners to you but I suspect there were at least 100 when I was there. Hell I knew at least ten myself. Doesn't matter, enjoy your opinion. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I'll quit after this as its bedtime and I'm loosing interest, but I'll correct you by noting that my opinion is not something to enjoy. I'm obligated legally and more importantly ethically to bear the responsibility of my actions. If I injure someone I am duty bound to them. For me that doesn't mean managing donation cans. You asked and I answered. I can't say I'm either sorry or suprised you don't seem to like my answer. | |||
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for me hunting is a dangerous sport.There are certain risk you take.Sometimes it is just risk reward, you chose to be a PH and take risk, the PH and outfitter allow you to hunt with them so you pick them and they accept that risk,I know it sounds a little harsh but why does the legal system have to be involved in everything. If you shoot your PH and it is you fault man up, do what you can to help, but you cannot replace a limb or life and neither can money.Yes I have been hurt on safari-broken leg and finger never even thought about talking to a lawyer. | |||
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Unfortunately in a civilized society all things considered the only way to get a responsible relief is via contractual binding agreement. If you where wronged the the party causing the wrong says he is not responsible....what is your next step? What if your raising a family have a mortgage and this wrong has caused you unable to earn a paycheck, what are you going to do? Even if the wronging party says I will take care of it, would you believe him without some type of binding agreement? what if the guy breaches his unenforceable agreement, or drops dead or he moves to Bolivia. As much as you dislike the legal system you really don't have a choice but to get a Lawyer to draw up an agreement, hopefully getting the other party to accept the terms otherwise to the court sytem you go. A legal agreement is enforceable for the most part. The days of the hand shake and gentleman agreement is for the most part over, just look at the amount of small "boiler plate writting" on just about anything you sign. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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